WSJ Editorial Board: Make Dishwashers That Clean Again
- Thread starter stricklybojack
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Let me throw the first grenade. Every modern dishwasher I’ve had has cleaned very well using relatively little water and energy. Brands include Frigidaire, Maytag, LG, GE and my current machine, a portable low-end Whirlpool. In fact, due to the racket it makes, I use only the 1-hr cycle and it does a bang-up job, even on pots/pans.
Having said that, I fully understand the complaints about 2 hour + 40 minute normal cycles. I’d also argue that drying is more of a problem than actual cleaning with some of today’s dishwashers.
Having said that, I fully understand the complaints about 2 hour + 40 minute normal cycles. I’d also argue that drying is more of a problem than actual cleaning with some of today’s dishwashers.
Ehhh
...I agree to an extent. My Bosch is more efficient than my Whirlpool in both electricity and water when using the Normal cycle. The Bosch also cleans better when using that cycle. It isn’t just water and energy values but more of a design factor. Older KitchenAid DWs were great, but not in EVERY way possible. So a machine, like my Bosch, would clean better if it were allowed to use higher wash temps or more water to allow for greater spray pressures. However, newer detergents rely so heavily on enzymes that long wash times would still be necessary. I’m not saying I wouldn’t like it, but I’m just not sure it would make that big of a difference in a normal cycle. Now a 1 hour cycle is a completely different beast.
...I agree to an extent. My Bosch is more efficient than my Whirlpool in both electricity and water when using the Normal cycle. The Bosch also cleans better when using that cycle. It isn’t just water and energy values but more of a design factor. Older KitchenAid DWs were great, but not in EVERY way possible. So a machine, like my Bosch, would clean better if it were allowed to use higher wash temps or more water to allow for greater spray pressures. However, newer detergents rely so heavily on enzymes that long wash times would still be necessary. I’m not saying I wouldn’t like it, but I’m just not sure it would make that big of a difference in a normal cycle. Now a 1 hour cycle is a completely different beast.
tomdawg
Well-known member
Let me add to this
Make washers and dryers clean again!
I’m not impressed by whirlpool’s new design.
If they made a quality machine, I would buy whirlpool again. Until next time.
(IMO)
Make washers and dryers clean again!
I’m not impressed by whirlpool’s new design.
If they made a quality machine, I would buy whirlpool again. Until next time.
(IMO)
Uninformed or user error?
Do some people not know how to use modern equipment? All my current generation equipment well out performs TOL stuff it replaced - all while using much less power or water. I'm coming up on 2 years with my KA dishwasher and can count on one hand the items that I took out that were not spotless. MY WP Duet washers get everything clean, and have gotten spots and stains out that my previous LK TL couldn't budge.
Really get tiered of hearing that "new" stuff is crap. Learn how to use it.
Do some people not know how to use modern equipment? All my current generation equipment well out performs TOL stuff it replaced - all while using much less power or water. I'm coming up on 2 years with my KA dishwasher and can count on one hand the items that I took out that were not spotless. MY WP Duet washers get everything clean, and have gotten spots and stains out that my previous LK TL couldn't budge.
Really get tiered of hearing that "new" stuff is crap. Learn how to use it.
Yes, consumers are loathe to change their habits to fit how "newfangled" machinery works.
For example, habitual prerinsers impair the performance of dishwashers with soil sensors ... causing the cycle to be shortened AND heating temperatures reduced. Many also get in a tizzy about those long cycles (on both washers and dishwashers), choosing the shortest "Quick" cycle regardless of load size and/or stain/soil level (which particularly comes into play for laundry).
Phooey on the naysayers
My Maytag dishwasher that is a couple years old cleans better than all my previous machines and it’s virtually silent. It just took a little experimentation to learn how to use it. First off, it cleans best with the longest Power Scrub or whatever the cycle is called rather than normal or auto. That was true of my older DWs too. That adds a couple more rinses which makes all the difference. It just took a little experimentation to figure out the right dose of detergent. Second, it doesn’t take anywhere near the 3 or 4 hours it says it’s going to take if you turn on the kitchen faucet and get the water hot before starting it, which everyone should know to do with any dishwasher new or old. Capacity is smaller than my Newton, IA Maytags, but the build quality of the door and racks is infinitely better.
And my HE FL washer gets clothes cleaner than my old school full fill TL Maytags and SQ ever did. And it gets stains out first time every time with no pre-scrubbing. Just need to bleed the water line hot before starting, and learn how to load and dose detergent properly. I’d never go back to using all that water and detergent in the old TLs. All the people complaining about no cleaning and unwet clothes are grossly overloading and over or under dosing detergent, and/or using too much fabric softener.
So what if these machines run 2 hours. Multi task and do other things.
Life is good.
Sure I love the glitzy chrome styling of the old appliances and cars. But they’re not necessarily better.
My Maytag dishwasher that is a couple years old cleans better than all my previous machines and it’s virtually silent. It just took a little experimentation to learn how to use it. First off, it cleans best with the longest Power Scrub or whatever the cycle is called rather than normal or auto. That was true of my older DWs too. That adds a couple more rinses which makes all the difference. It just took a little experimentation to figure out the right dose of detergent. Second, it doesn’t take anywhere near the 3 or 4 hours it says it’s going to take if you turn on the kitchen faucet and get the water hot before starting it, which everyone should know to do with any dishwasher new or old. Capacity is smaller than my Newton, IA Maytags, but the build quality of the door and racks is infinitely better.
And my HE FL washer gets clothes cleaner than my old school full fill TL Maytags and SQ ever did. And it gets stains out first time every time with no pre-scrubbing. Just need to bleed the water line hot before starting, and learn how to load and dose detergent properly. I’d never go back to using all that water and detergent in the old TLs. All the people complaining about no cleaning and unwet clothes are grossly overloading and over or under dosing detergent, and/or using too much fabric softener.
So what if these machines run 2 hours. Multi task and do other things.
Life is good.
Sure I love the glitzy chrome styling of the old appliances and cars. But they’re not necessarily better.
I don’t think modern dishwashers are that bad. It’s clothes washers I have most issue with. I’m convinced the recent scent additives and highly scented detergents are a result of modern washers being unable to fully remove stink from clothing and instead of fixing our machines we’re being told to douse our clothing in artificial fragrance to cover the stench up.
I think products have become highly scented because it's now cheap for manufacturers to make them that way and people actually prefer them (or equate highly-scented with "more powerful.") The original Tide liquid is P&G's latest victim. Over at the Tide website there's plenty of outrage and all P&G will say is that most consumers prefer an "intense" fragrance.
The Tide Powder with Bleach is still lightly scented but I now expect it to be turned into unbearable perfume at any time and any box I buy could be my last.
As far as energy efficiency goes, appliance manufacturing is now in the hands of a few global corporations. A temporary pause in the USA's standards isn't going to change much, if anything.
The Tide Powder with Bleach is still lightly scented but I now expect it to be turned into unbearable perfume at any time and any box I buy could be my last.
As far as energy efficiency goes, appliance manufacturing is now in the hands of a few global corporations. A temporary pause in the USA's standards isn't going to change much, if anything.
vacerator
Well-known member
My dishwasher cleans well.
It just takes 88 minutes as opposed to an hour or less than my 90's single motor and pump type.
It just takes 88 minutes as opposed to an hour or less than my 90's single motor and pump type.
Drying
My parents have a new Bosch dishwasher that is very good! It holds an incredible amount of dishes and runs totally silently. It has a ding ding ding at the end so you know it is finished. However, it does not dry at all. It has no heating element. So they have to leave it standing open for about 12 hours to allow most of the dishes to dry. They always mention how they love it, but hate that it doesn't dry.
My parents have a new Bosch dishwasher that is very good! It holds an incredible amount of dishes and runs totally silently. It has a ding ding ding at the end so you know it is finished. However, it does not dry at all. It has no heating element. So they have to leave it standing open for about 12 hours to allow most of the dishes to dry. They always mention how they love it, but hate that it doesn't dry.
Lack of a drying heater is not unusual nowadays. Models as such rely on a heated final rinse for drying heat and require rinse aid for proper moisture evaporation.
Wow
I am very shocked we all seem to be in agreement!
However, washer and dryers are another beast. I wanted to discuss that, but figured I would save some hair pulling. Looks like we are headed there anyways! New machines should have a water factor of at least 3.2 and use 105F degree water for warm and tap hot for hot settings on normal cycles! Cleaning would soar, and additive usage would be minimized by the ‘uneducated’/ignorant.
I am very shocked we all seem to be in agreement!
However, washer and dryers are another beast. I wanted to discuss that, but figured I would save some hair pulling. Looks like we are headed there anyways! New machines should have a water factor of at least 3.2 and use 105F degree water for warm and tap hot for hot settings on normal cycles! Cleaning would soar, and additive usage would be minimized by the ‘uneducated’/ignorant.
Flash drying - at least that's what I recall the owner's manual for the Bosch SHU43C sez. Frankly I think it dries well enough. The only water left behind is that caught in the concave bottoms of certain items like cups and wine glasses. Simple enough just to tip them over, and maybe wipe a little off with a clean towel.
Then again, I chose the longest and hottest cycle (pot scrubber) so when the cycle is over, there's a cloud of steam if you open it right away. I'm not sure if things dry faster with the DW open or closed.
As for cleaning, it's rare that everything doesn't come out spotless. The only time I had trouble with it was when the drain pump needed replacement. Before the Bosch I had a Frigidaire which was a nightmare. It lasted about five years, and I picked up the Bosch as a customer return at Sears. No regrets.
Then again, I chose the longest and hottest cycle (pot scrubber) so when the cycle is over, there's a cloud of steam if you open it right away. I'm not sure if things dry faster with the DW open or closed.
As for cleaning, it's rare that everything doesn't come out spotless. The only time I had trouble with it was when the drain pump needed replacement. Before the Bosch I had a Frigidaire which was a nightmare. It lasted about five years, and I picked up the Bosch as a customer return at Sears. No regrets.
golittlesport
Well-known member
long dishwasher cycles?
I don't really get that complaint. Are they waiting for the dishwasher to finish so they can serve dinner on the clean plates?
I typically turn the dishwasher on when I go to bed -- doesn't matter if it runs 30 minutes or 3 hours -- I wake up to spotless dishes. I agree with the majority here that modern dishwashers are more efficient, do a superior job and are much quieter. I remember my mom having to turn the dishwasher off when she would get a phone call.
I believe unsatisfied customers are probably not using the machines correctly and have not read the instruction books that came with their machines.
I don't really get that complaint. Are they waiting for the dishwasher to finish so they can serve dinner on the clean plates?
I typically turn the dishwasher on when I go to bed -- doesn't matter if it runs 30 minutes or 3 hours -- I wake up to spotless dishes. I agree with the majority here that modern dishwashers are more efficient, do a superior job and are much quieter. I remember my mom having to turn the dishwasher off when she would get a phone call.
I believe unsatisfied customers are probably not using the machines correctly and have not read the instruction books that came with their machines.
iheartmaytag
Well-known member
Cleaning ability is not my major concern
With modern appliances. It's their planned obsolesce. There used to be a day when 15-20 years was a good life for a water using appliance. Many real Kitchenaids have lived 30 or more years.
Now if you get five, you have quality machine.
With modern appliances. It's their planned obsolesce. There used to be a day when 15-20 years was a good life for a water using appliance. Many real Kitchenaids have lived 30 or more years.
Now if you get five, you have quality machine.
The problem for me with super-long cycles is that two loads usually need to be run when I have company. I try to do a load of cookware before the meal, but that doesn’t always play out. Back at the house (and the warehouse apt.) there could easily be three or even four loads when making big meals for 8+. It’s in those cases where cycle time can really add up.
And to answer the question I know is coming: Washing anything by hand is cheating!!
Now that my life has been downsized, there are no more 2 or 3 entree buffets with multiple sides + desserts. We usually just go out to eat if there are more than four of us, LOL.
And to answer the question I know is coming: Washing anything by hand is cheating!!
Now that my life has been downsized, there are no more 2 or 3 entree buffets with multiple sides + desserts. We usually just go out to eat if there are more than four of us, LOL.
I actually have some faith renewed seeing that most don't agree with this misinformed opinion article. I've now had three of Whirlpool's current platform dishwashers in this house since late 2015: the WDT920 that has become YouTube famous and has several threads on this site with peanut butter glasses in the corner of the top rack and the scorched on foods tests, and is now living at my grandparents' house because I wanted them to have something sleek and modern and silent in their new kitchen, then the KDFE104 that I adored but ended up letting HD return it because it had been damaged in shipping on the back, which made the upper ball bearing rack glides seem "off" during the 6-7 months I had it, which resulted in the WDF520 that I have now that will stay with the house when we move, that also has beyond impressed me considering it's a much more mid range model than the TOL quality of the 920 and KitchenAid, yet cleans like a beast while running all wash levels. I even have some video clips of it posted after I swapped in the third level wash manifold, and it's about as close as we can probably get on the market today that resembles the "hurricane in a box" of the PowerCleans and old KitchenAid's.
All of these machines have "pond pumps", they all have normal cycle times of 2-2.5 hours, and all use around 3-4 gallons on a normally soiled full load, and they all, each and every time produce perfect results, and I've yet to have any sort of odor or more than a tiny speck every once in a blue moon. And after I modified the 520 with Noico sound mastic all over the outer surfaces and inside the door, it's as silent as both the other 46db rated machines.
Also, as much as I revere the PowerClean as one of the most well designed and bulletproof dishwashers to ever grace this earth, all of these modern machines outperform it in overall cleaning, quietness, and efficiency. I adored the PC but because of its rapid cycles with today's enzyme based detergents, I frequently would pull out a stray spoon or bowl that would still have a bit of dried goop on it.
And this is just based on WP's platforms. There are many brands and designs being offered today that easily compare in performance, though build quality and "feel" are arguable in my opinion.
And laundry is a whole other rant with the same idea, after I've now owned two HE top loaders and the front load I've had now for 2 years.
All of these machines have "pond pumps", they all have normal cycle times of 2-2.5 hours, and all use around 3-4 gallons on a normally soiled full load, and they all, each and every time produce perfect results, and I've yet to have any sort of odor or more than a tiny speck every once in a blue moon. And after I modified the 520 with Noico sound mastic all over the outer surfaces and inside the door, it's as silent as both the other 46db rated machines.
Also, as much as I revere the PowerClean as one of the most well designed and bulletproof dishwashers to ever grace this earth, all of these modern machines outperform it in overall cleaning, quietness, and efficiency. I adored the PC but because of its rapid cycles with today's enzyme based detergents, I frequently would pull out a stray spoon or bowl that would still have a bit of dried goop on it.
And this is just based on WP's platforms. There are many brands and designs being offered today that easily compare in performance, though build quality and "feel" are arguable in my opinion.
And laundry is a whole other rant with the same idea, after I've now owned two HE top loaders and the front load I've had now for 2 years.
4 loads a day
That's like saying you need a SUV just because one of the roads you commute on goes through a forest IMO.
Yeah sure in those situations yes you might need something else.
But, like, how often is that?
And can you justify such a major difference in overall design for those rare cases?
I'm 99% certain that the savings outweigh the additional usage of a couple of sinks worth of water.
And on durability:
So, a 80s KA was how much back then? 300-400$?
That's close to 1000$ today. Just as a perspective...
That's like saying you need a SUV just because one of the roads you commute on goes through a forest IMO.
Yeah sure in those situations yes you might need something else.
But, like, how often is that?
And can you justify such a major difference in overall design for those rare cases?
I'm 99% certain that the savings outweigh the additional usage of a couple of sinks worth of water.
And on durability:
So, a 80s KA was how much back then? 300-400$?
That's close to 1000$ today. Just as a perspective...
