WSJ Editorial Board: Make Dishwashers That Clean Again

[murando531]

I've also mentioned this before in other threads, but I will never understand the hang up over cycle times. It would be one thing if these machines had to be hand operated, but jeez, all you have to do is set your options, click a button, and walk away, and when you come back when it's done, the whole operation has been finished. That's the whole point of an "automatic" washer or dishwasher!? I can't imagine being someone pacing in front of the machine, biting their nails in distress because they're waiting for the exact moment they can pop that lid or door open. There are thousands of things a person can do in the time that machine is doing its job completely on its own. Go watch a movie or something, lol.

 

[murando531]

Needing fast cycle times during company is a valid argument, but at the same time, during my 29 years of life and all the holidays at my grandparents' and aunt Robin's, both being the "adults" I've always looked up to and admired, I vividly remember that when the kitchen was busy and they were the showrunners delegating tasks, ALL the pots and pans, bake-ware, and large items like huge mixing bowls and such, were all washed by hand as we went. And I do that to this day. All the dinnerware and small stuff goes in the dishwasher, so long as none of it is wood or nonstick. Even having a 15 person Thanksgiving as recent as last year, we didn't have a back up of dishes or a shortage of anything, and the dishwasher ran twice the whole day, fully packed. I myself dislike handwashing dishes, but when it's all large items, it kinda cuts down on the time, versus if you had all the little utensils and silverware and cups to deal with.

 

[lordkenmore]

I will never understand the hang up over cycle times

I'm one of the ones who has commented more than once about long cycle times. My thought (and I'm not alone in this): I don't like leaving an appliance running fully unattended. I won't hover over it, of course, but I want to be around in case something goes wrong (like screams of mechanical anguish, or the sound of water running when it shouldn't). Perhaps I'm too conservative or paranoid...

These long cycle times may or may not work with a particular schedule.

 

[lordkenmore]

I also have commented on long cycle times for entertaining. It's possibly valid to think of a situation outlined above of a family gathering where people might be recruited to do dishes. (Indeed, I've heard this before--one dishwasher detractor I know chirped cheerfully that the only time I'd ever have lots of dishes is for family gatherings, and everyone will pitch in to clean the kitchen!) But this doesn't apply to all families, and it may not apply to other entertaining one might do.

As always, a lot hinges on the person and his or her circumstances...

 

[lordkenmore]

Of course, there are ways of working around the problem of long cycle times for entertaining. One very obvious solution: if it was a huge problem regularly, one could get a second dishwasher. (Not that anyone here would want a second...or third...or fiftieth dishwasher. LOL)

 

[appnut]

No hand washing is allowed at my house.  I'm one of those "strange" people that won't use anything unless it's been washed in the dishwasher.  In the process of preparing things for a company meal, or something similar, I have been known to "sort" dishware and give first priority any/everything that can be washed with simply using the 1-hour cycle.

 

The one time I haver used the delay start feature was two years ago.  When I awoke the next morning, that was when the diverter/distribution valve decided to tank.  I'm too skiddish to tempt fate again and have that happen all over again.  I just don't fall asleep very easily knowing the dishwasher is still running.  I've ceased using the dry cycle most of the time as it's just about finished with the final rinse by the time I'm ready to go to bed.  That way I can open the door and let everything flash/steam dry over night.  

 

[mark_wpduet]

@iheartmaytag

I agree with you. Cleaning, cycle times are no issue. It's the fact that they are designed to die in a much shorter amount of time that bugs me to no end. Especially since the USA is always professing how we can limit environmental impacts by being more energy conscious and yet they cut corners or design these machines to live a much shorter life and we end up having to replace them more frequently. It makes ZERO sense with environmental impact in mind. I think proper maintenance helps some... but my refrigerator is designed to fail just the way it's built, no matter how clean I keep the coils.

 

[brisnat81]

Just buy a machine that has a quick or a fast Option.

The Miele defaults to 2-2.5 hours on the normal auto cycle and completes the cycle in less than 2 Gal of water, using spray arm alternation and gentle sprays.

Add the Short option and you still get the same cleaning capability, but its all over in 1 hour, including 12 mins of drying time. This uses around 4 gal of water. Both arms run at once and the spray pressure is higher.

 

[frigilux]

Every dishwasher I’ve had in the last 10 years has had an impressively effective short cycle. That really keeps things moving in multiple/consecutive loads situations.  

 

I used to entertain 2-3 times a week—often with multiple entree buffets—so the dishwasher had to do multiple loads frequently.  An effective short cycle (usually 45-75 minutes) was an important feature.

 

[iheartmaytag]

That's close to 1000$ today. Just as a perspective...

And a new Kitchen aid will cost you upwards to $1500 today, and still be designed to fail in five to eight years.
Perspective: the year my mom bought her first dishwasher, you could get a decent slightly used car for $1500.

I just think for a grand or more the dishwasher should outlast the main course.

 

[iowabear]

A TOL KitchenAid was advertised for $499 in 1980 in my local paper.  That would be just over $1500 today.

 

For a long time I've been of the opinion that paying more often just gets you more features, not more reliability.  But who knows?

 

I would love to see a real parts breakdown and reliability study of the various WP models today:

 

Cheap $300 Whirlpool

Mid-range $600 Maytag

High-end $1500 KitchenAid

 

And see what lasted longer.

 

 

[tomdawg]

Dish drawer?

For those of you who have multiple loads to run, would the fisher paykel dishdrawer be a better option? I guess the idea is run more often with smaller loads..
not sure if some of you guys out there that have dishdrawer and don’t really have this problem.
We run into this problem... mainly because the wife or I forgot to run the dishwasher the night before. So sometimes it runs twice in one day.

 

[lordkenmore]

>I would love to see a real parts breakdown and reliability study of the various WP models

It would be interesting.

I can't qualify as any sort of expert...but I have thought that a more expensive appliance may not buy anything past more features. Performance and lifespan might not be much different vs. a lower end model (at least as long as one isn't at the rock bottom "it's cheap because it's cheap, not just because it costs little" level). Actually, reliability of a lower end model might be better: fewer features=less stuff to break.

 

[mark_wpduet]

Yep

I've thought of this. Buying the very expensive TOL appliance may not yield any more longevity than the BOL which is SAD!!!

Is a water heater an appliance? Anyway- we just got a new one. I noticed that the BOL had a 6-year limited warranty but the TOL had a 12-year limited warranty. So maybe TOL does get you better build quality? I don't know. I just assumed mostly today the TOL got you more features, or larger capacity - but pretty much the same build quality underneath.

 

[chachp]

More Money = More Features and/or Better Build Quality

 

<span style="font-family: 'book antiqua', palatino; font-size: 14pt;">I don't think we can say this is true across the board with all manufacturers but it's been my experience that it's usually true.  </span>

 

<span style="font-family: 'book antiqua', palatino; font-size: 14pt;">My most recent experience of this was when I was shopping for a dishwasher.  I noticed that just in the BOSCH line alone those machines that costs less had racks that were not as adjustable as those in the higher cost models (feature) and noticed that the lower end models had a plastic bottom while the higher end were all stainless (build quality?).  Does this matter in the long run?  Each person will have a different answer because we all use different criteria to evaluate.  I wanted the third rack, etc. so I had to pay a little more to get it.</span>

 

<span style="font-family: 'book antiqua', palatino; font-size: 14pt;">Another example for us last year was when one of our door openers went out.  Since both were almost 20 years old we decided to replace both which is not an inexpensive endeavor (and I'm a little OCD and wanted them to match ).  I did a lot of research and found big differences in the features and build quality among the lower end models through to the higher end.  In the end I went for the better warranty (I got ten years), what is supposed to be a better drive mechanism and had the WiFi abilities I wanted.  I also was able to purchase from a local Overheard door franchise which I try to do whenever I can.  And because it wasn't a big box store I was able to negotiate a better price since I was buying two instead of one.  I try to support local when I can vs. the big box stores.</span>

 

[DADoES]

 
Part of the cost increase on higher-end models IS for the increased warranty coverage, if that's a touted benefit.  Consider Speed Queen's toploader line -- TR3, TR5, TR7.  Each higher model has a longer warranty (3 yrs, 5 yrs, 7 yrs ... notwithstanding their current promotion of 10 yrs on all), and more features which are just more options enabled on the electronic controls.  The mechanical operational components are otherwise identical from one to another.

 

[combo52]

Most Reliable and Longest Lived DW in WPs lineup

Would likely be the $299 machine, the highest end models differently have many more problems.

 

Likewise the lower end Bosch DWs are considerably longer lived and less problem prone than their high end models, however Bosch DWs are much flimsier than WP built machines, the number of broken handles, rack wheels and even bent doors we see on Bosch DWs shows that they are not a good choice for rentals and student housing situations, LOL

 

With appliances like water heaters , furnaces and central A?C units the more expensive models will generally last longer and cost less to operate.

 

Garbage disposers are a good example of getting what you paid for, aTOL ISE disposer will cost 3 or 4 times as much as a Bager but will last 2-3 times as long and will not clog your drains.

 

Range hoods are another good example of getting a much better product if you pay more.

 

John L.

 

[henene4]

Bosch DW wheels

Yeah, those are the worst part on these machines.

For some reason, they always break when used heavily, the clips on them just snap...

 

[gelaundry4ever]

my experience with modern dishwashers

I have the Kenmore dishwasher model 13222 with thE powerwave wash arm. It does a great job of cleaning dishes. The door is the heaviest out of all the dishwashers my family has owned. It's running as I speak now. I always use smartwash, high temp wash and heat dry as well as cascade detergent and rinse aid. You can hear the sheer force of the water jets when it is empty. it alternates wash arms like Bosch would. It seems that American manufacturers are learning from the Europeans, starting with Frigidaire when it comes down to washing. One time, I ran it with the door open, and water shot across the room when the bottom arm operated. I don't care about long cycles anymore because I do other things, like laundry or TV. just my thoughts. it depends on how jets operate too.

 

[sudsmaster]

Water heater longevity...

It's my impression that warranties on water heaters have mostly to do with the number and quality of the anode rods in the heaters. More anode rod means less corrosion of the glass lined steel tank, and a longer tank life.

 

There may be other bells and whistles, of course, to go along with a higher price.

 

I'm keeping my 40 year old water heater going by replacing the anode rod every 10 years or so. I also flush it out every three or four years. It's probably due now. Seems to run fine. The only hiccup in the last 20 years has been the pilot got plugged up and the entire thing stopped producing hot water. That was about two years ago. There's no sediment trap in the gas line to the heater, which means some gunk got into the pilot circuit. It wasn't hard to fix once I figured out what the problem was, and it's been running fine since. Nope, haven't put a sediment trap in the line yet. Lazy.

 

I did add another layer of insulation to the tank, and some foam insulation on the hot water pipes under the house. I think it helps. We'll see.

 

Better water heaters have two or more anode rods. One as a free standing one, which is basic. The other one is incorporated into the cold water inlet (a long pipe called a dip tube that puts cold water to the bottom of the tank, so it gets heated faster without unduly cooling the entire tankful). Although on my water heater, the dip tube is plastic. I know that because I replaced it at one point.

 

There are also two types of anode rods. The most common around here are magnesium, and they have a little raised dot in the center of the anode rod attachment nut at the top of the water heater. The other type is aluminum, and has a flat nut. I think the magnesium ones are better, but in some locations aluminum is used because the magnesium isn't as well suited to the water quality. And aluminum rods are cheaper.