120v/220v vs Straight "220v,208v etc.."

[mikeklondon]

UK Electric

Its just gets more and more complex to me i wonder if there will ever be an international standard, dont think I'll see it in my life time, but then I am 58 this year. If there is I do so hope its nearer to ours then yours It sound far to complex

Launderes: I also can not think of why a European-made machine would need a neutral.

I'll let someone more technical explain that one our system only has 2 wires and an earth

 

[ronhic]

only has 2 wires and an earth

...so does ours....

 

[launderess]

The United States Will Switch To 220V Power Shortly Before I

Or just barely afterwards! *LOL*

Unlike much of the UK and EU that were in ruins post WWII and thus required rebuilding (a perfect time to make such decisions), the USA has built out and up an electrical power gird system that relies mainly upon 120v power for most (non large and or heating appliance) usage and that is all there is to it. It would cost billions and take years to change things around not to mention cause untold numbers of consumers grief as they would have to update appliances.

Again much of the reasons UK/EU homes require 220v (or even 400v in some areas) power just do not exsist here. Hot water comes from central boilers which are most often gas or oil heated. Those two types of fuel are usually cheaper than electric in many areas of the country and that is usually the largest influence on appliance purchases.

Being as all that may one does not doubt the value of washing machines that can heat water. However one does not have to go all out to 220v power. A 120v/20 amp circut would provide enough power to run a 1300w or 1500w heater which is more than enough, especially for the puny amounts of water most modern front loaders use.

 

[sudsmaster]

Again, it is my recollection that when I replaced the door lock relay on one of my 1065 washers, the circuitry was running off 110 volts, not 220.

I believe this to be the case for safety reasons: if everything on the washer ran at 220 volt split phase, then every circuit would have to be isolated from the frame, since both legs of 220 split phase are hot. By running only 110 volts to some parts, these circuits could be polarized and use frame ground, which would be the same as neutral. And even if they didn't use frame ground, the neutral circuit would not pose the same level of danger that a hot leg would.

Just a thought. Pretty sure that relay was rated at 110 volts.

Can't remember if I put a voltmeter on it during the repair, though.

 

[launderess]

Well Just Peeped Through Service Manual For W 11XX and 12XX

So far all the major components; pump, motor, and heater are 240v/208 volt, not a thing so far about 120v. But still the unit requires 120v/220v four prong plug.

As you say though it could be "lesser" componets do require 120v and are wired accordingly.

 

[sudsmaster]

OK, when I get around to it I'll crack open one of the W1065's again and test the door lock relay, which sends voltage/current to the door lock as needed. It makes sense that it would be 110, since it's mounted on the frame and having a neutral as one of the wires could cut down on shock potential issues. I'll also see if I can fish out the wiring diagram - as I recall they're in a plastic bag right up front inside the front panel on these washers. I just need to remember how to open the darn panels.

Keeping everything at 220 could make it easier to transform a Euro model into a US model, excepting of course the 50 hz vs. the 60 hz thing, which could be an issue for motors and computer controls.

 

[launderess]

OK, Our Miele Serviceman Just Left

While he was working on our unit asked about the 120v/220v thing and was told it was so various parts can work simultaneously. By that it was expalined drain pump and motor and so forth. The door lock for instance on such machines is 220v because it would be the only thing drawing current at that time (you cannot open the door whilst the motor and so forth are running), so there you are then.

 

[cornutt]

If it was up to me...

All homes would be supplied with 120/208Y three-phase power. That way, large appliances and machinery could use true three-phase motors, which would be more efficient. But three-phase wiring costs more, and a lot of residential areas in North American are not equipped with three-phase distribution.

The main reason the electrical codes here changed to the four-wire setup for 120/240V is because if some problem with your house's electrical service causes your neutral to "float", the chassis of any appliance that has the three-wire setup will become energized. (Floating neutral is a seriously bad thing. If you ever want to get a power company's attention, call their service number and tell them you have a floating neutral. You will be stunned at how fast they get a truck to your house.)

Someone asked the question of a NEMA plug that is for 240V at less than 30 amps. The answer is yes; go to the link below and look at 6-15R and 6-20R. Many older (1950s-60s vintage) houses in the Southeast U.S. have two or three 6-15R or 6-20R receptacles in the house, usually below a window. Back in the day, these were used for window air conditioners.

One other bit about dryers: As you know, most North American electric dryers only us 240V for the heater and its thermostats; everything else in the dryer runs at 120V. Back in the days of fuses instead of circuit breakers, it was not too uncommon that one of the two fuses on the dryer circit would blow while the other one remained non-blown. Depending which one blew, this could create a situation where the dryer would run and everything worked, except that there was no heat. This was so common that owner manuals for electric dryers instructed the owner to, in the event of no heat, check their house fuse box before calling for service.

http://www.cordsetsinc.com/includes/images/pages/configuration-chart-E.jpg

 

[launderess]

120v/220v Requirement Is Why American Dryers

Along with one assumes others with similar electrical requirements cannot be run from step-up converters. OTHO long as the converter is within rating limits and the outlet/electrical wiring can supply European units with straight "220v" power requirements have no problem.

Often persons with say power tools or some such that are only used now and then don't want to or cannot run a "220v" line and resort to step-up converters, however again if the thing requires 120v as well there goes that option.

Perhaps the best would be one of those "Quick 220" devices but then you need to find two outlets out of phase with each other. In some older homes/apartments were only one cable/wire brings in power to the fuse or breaker box (often split between two branches) even this option won't work.

 

[combo52]

240 Volt and 208 Volt Power Supply

It is not one bit cheaper or more efficient to run motors on three phase 208 volt power, it is however cheaper to make a 3 phase motor of a given HP power and cheaper to wire it in to the power system.

 

There is NO 220 power in this country and it makes one appear very uninformed to even discuss such.

 

[kb0nes]

Variable Frequency Inverters

Three-phase induction motors have several advantages but energy conversion efficiency isn't one of them. The biggest advantage is starting torque and lack of extra required start components. They also tend to be smaller for a given horsepower as compared to single phase motors and have smoother torque curves over a wider frequency range.

The big game changer is that of variable frequency inverters. One of these coupled to a 3 phase motor allows for amazing control of speed, torque and direction. The use of a VFI can in many cases replace change gears and transmissions. We recently bought a new mid size CNC lathe at work, there is no variable gearing in the spindle drive at all. Just a 25 HP 3-phase motor and a variable frequency inverter drive. The lathe can run in either direction from 300-4000 RPM with almost no change in torque. It even ramps speed dynamically with changes in diameter and can reverse almost instantly for cutting with left-hand tooling!

One added advantage of the variable frequency inverter is that they can supply 3 phases from a single phase power. This can make for a economical way to run 3 phase motors in a home shop environment and additionally you can get some degree of speed control to boot!

 

[MrX]

Europe's confusing too!

Europe's slightly more standardised in terms of voltage than North America.

However, there are still quite a few differences in certain countries, even if there's more of a general consensus.

The voltage and frequency are totally standardised in the EU (and other surrounding countries). Australia and NZ also now followed suit too.

Voltage : 230V Single Phase / 400V Three Phase.
Frequency : 50Hz

Out of old habit, you will still get UK people referring to it as 240V (single phase) and 415V (three phase) and Irish/Continental People calling it 220V (single phase) and 380V (three phase).

The issues appliance makers face in Europe are more about plugs and sockets than voltages.

The vast majority of European countries (and many others) use the European CEE 7 system which has a socket outlet that delivers up to 16amps.

Then you've the UK, Ireland, Malta and Cyprus which use 13amp plugs

and a couple of countries that use 10A plugs.

So, appliance makers have to deal with different versions of the same appliance, especially dryers, for the countries that don't use 16A plugs.

So, drying times in the UK and Ireland are longer than in France, Germany etc with certain dryers where there might be a 16A version in France and a 10 or 13A version in the UK.

I know when we brought a dryer back to Ireland from France we had to change the socket outlet on the wall as it kept blowing the plug fuse.

Irish outlets are typically on 16 or 20Amp radials, but the plugs carry a 13amp fuse.

It was quite acceptable, legal and safe to install a 16A socket on that circuit.

The other thing in Europe is that many countries allow / encourage 400V 3-phase supplies to homes, while other countries, notably the UK and Ireland do not like that at all and encourage large single-phase supplies.
It's all a question of how the power company opted to balance its loads.

So, cooking appliances often come with options to connect them to various 3-phase hook-ups
Or, 230V 32amp circuits as found in Ireland and Britain for example.

So, it's always complicated no matter where you go I think!

 

[launderess]

When You Guys Are Right, You Are Right

Did some research and apparently at one time Miele has sold several flavors of those "splitter" boxes over the years.

One version fitted the standard four prong plug from the washer and dryer into it's outlets, however the plug on the splitter's cord was a *three* pronged 220v/60hz commonly found in some older homes, there was also a green wire with a terminal end leading out of the cable but not part of the plug. What one did was plug the thing into the 220v outlet and attached the terminal end via a screw to the outside of the outlet. The whole thing is similar to those old adapters sold to use things with three prong plugs (120v) with two pronged outlets.

Miele no longer stocks these sort of splitter boxes (I checked) but it confirms what many here have said. it is totally possible to wire and use a three pronged 220v plug and that the fourth doesn't "do" much related to the functioning of the machine other than ground and is tied off inside the machine somewhere.

http://www.electrical-contractor.ne...topics/111683/all/Counterfeit_UL_Marking.html

 

[launderess]

Oh And Another Thing

At least by the last incarnations of 220v powered washers (the 11XX and 12XX series) Miele used heaters with only 2100watts of power. While pushing things close to the windows edge you can eek out 2000 watts or so of power from a 120v/20amp circut IIRC providing the wiring can handle it and it does not go on for hours on end. Am wondering if it would then be possible to use a step-up converter to run a Miele washer off of. I mean if one doesn't plan on doing boil washes from ice cold tap water the other biggest draw would be the motor and on the series in question that only pulls 35watts.

 

[seamusuk]

Europe is standardised @230V?

In a word is it Heck.......
Was chatting to a guy from UK power networks a while back and mentioned our flat was getting 250v according to my voltmeter- he said the supply voltage is still 240-250v but the acceptable range has been altered on paper- whereas it was 240V-10/+5% its now 230+10/-5%.
He said if you think about it how would you change every transformer in such a short space of time for a 10v drop lol?
Seamus

P.S He also said another factor that makes a difference is how far you are from the substation that serves your building- as ours it literally over the road we are always going to get the high end of acceptable apparently......