70's Kenmore Suds model

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support :

Why?????

is it a screw instead of a bolt? STUCK!!! Any ideas? Ir&#92t's been soaking in PB Blaster 2 days, still no luck, vise grips, channel locks, huge screwdrivers, nothing. I'm afraid to torch it due to the plastic agitator.

Sears Parts diagrams show a BOLT, not a screw, and it's on order. But I have one leak to fix, gotta get this thing off.

I scraped away the rubber washer so PB would soak in, I've got a hammer handle stuck in the tranny pulley so it won't move, I've put my sizable weight into it, nothing. And of course the top ridge of the agitator prevents me from any decent grip on it, of course.

This TOL machine DESERVES to be in complete working order, no leaks. It's clearly the tub drain where the "button/pin/catcher" hits the outer tub.

akronman++4-23-2014-21-23-59.jpg
 
My mom's machine had a big screw like that too.   I can't remember ever attempting to remove it, though.

 

A bolt and a socket or box wrench would make the job easier for sure.
 
Stuck Agitator Screw

WP used screws on many many machines in the 1970s to attach the agitator, yes they can be harder to remove. I have almost always been able to get them loose with a really big screw driver.

In a worst case situation you may have to cut the head off and drill out the rest of the screw and re-tap the agitator shaft or just replace the AS.

A machine of this age should be torn apart anyway, the least this washer probably needs is new center-post seals, new spin tube, rust abatement on the outside of the center-post and of coerce resealing the outer tub.

Good luck and keep us posted, John.
 
to think

I knew nothing about this machine, other than it was older looking and maybe something of interest to someone...not to interrupt the thread flow here, but this machine brought way more discussion than I imagined, not to mention that you grabbed this unit at all. Pardon the half talking to myself and you all who bring life and surprises to appliances like this. A SUDS model - whatever that is - glad it was included and not commonly found.

Now, do you plan to disassemble and completely restore or do whatever is needed?

Interesting reading everyone's comments here....even if some is Greek to my ears. :-)
 
Phil

Phil----Thanks for the original CL posting. This washer will be getting a (slow) restoration.

Immediate needs---minor tub leak at main bottom drain, fabric softener dispenser plunger repair, lid hinge repairs. But as I take it apart for that tub leak, I will replace worn parts, check everything, derust, repaint, etc. But it is a wonderfully working machine with a minor leak.

Suds Model----Most manufacturers produced suds models in the early days of automatics, since wringer folks in the 30's to 50's were used to using the same hot soapy water for an entire day's washing. Through the decades, suds saving became less and less popular. I also own a 1979 GE FilterFlo with suds.

Suds Saving---These machines have 2 drain hoses. One goes into a standpipe or tub with no stopper plug, that is for rinse water that goes out and down the drain. The other SUDS hose goes into a plugged laundry tub capable of holding approx 20 gallons. If you choose "Save Suds" button or knob, then the hot soapy wash water goes into this tub for saving. The washer switches to the other drain hose for all rinsing, down the drain. When the entire cycle is over and clean clothes are in the dryer, you reset the suds button to RETURN SUDS. That hot 20 gallons with soap and detergent gets sucked back into the machine for your next load of clothes. It's very economical and "green" use of water and the gas/electric needed to heat it in your tank.

Of course if there's diapers/dog cleanup/oily rags laundry, you don't save the suds. But for sheets, towels, office clothes, etc, it's great. I usually do sheets or towels first in hot, by the time I suck the suds back in it's somewhat cooled to medium and I do PermPress/dress clothes. Or, if you're a hobbyist like me and have numerous suds machines, as soon as that hot water is being saved by the Kenmore, you can suck it into the GE and do another load in still hot sudsy water. It's kind of like Betty Crocker cake with Duncan Hines frosting. Quite sinful, but folks do it.

Again, thanks for all your CL ad finds. I search often(ish) but you seem to have perfected the art! This washer is the extra-large model of its era, pretty near TOL, plenty of dispensers and options, and one nasty stuck screw in that agitator.
 
Hey Buddy!

Had high hopes that your baby would go from Suds right to soak, rather than stop and stay off. What a great option for really dirty stuff.  Hopes realized. Great. Thanks.

 

When you get a chance, you busy, busy man, see what's going on in the dead space--with water level satisfied and without, Dying of curiosity to see if anything's there. If my suds intuition was on the mark, maybe the dead zone hunch is too. 

 

Loved your response to Phil, giving him the SUDS 101, and the new image in my head of a SUDS RETURN HOBBYIST; that's one for the books.
 
wow.

Mark you're the man - I never expected an explanation that is so complete and fully understandable.

It really brings back a memory, but can't remember...if it was my mom or someone else whose machine would dump all that hot, soapy water (aka suds)into the tub....but now it comes back to me. I LIKE that feature, as I would use it for sheets when you have too many to do in one load. In fact, I would likely fortify the returned amount of soapy water(suds) by adding more hot water, letting some of the soapy stuff go down the drain first and refilling it to the same level with hotter water and if necessary, adding a bit more soap . I know, that counters the "green" idea. :-) Maybe, there's a more convenient interception technique, depending on the machine. I like to mess with cycles, adding more or less water...and using the hot/cold choices (as my Maytag only has two temp choices).

You and others are welcome...just giving back something tangible for the intangible that isn't explainable right now. My wrists and arms are complaining from the hours spent searching, which improved the odds of hitting stuff like this(I still can't get over that this machine was special, but happy that it was!)

It's still a look, listen and decide phase for me...as collecting isn't what I can or should do right now..but I appreciate how you and others will take a machine and clean it up, making it sing and sparkle again, like new.

Thanks again for making the experience here so enjoyable....I'm hungry, after typing this long-winded mess.

:-) PHIL
 
Suds-Saver Operation

Hi Michael, when the suds are returned the washer WILL go directly into the 22 minute soak cycle, then the agitated pre-wash for 4 minutes, then drain and short spin, it will then refill dispense detergent in the dispenser and go through the rest of the normal cycle.

Most users of the Suds-Saver feature stopped the washer after the water was returned and selected the cycle they wanted.

Check out post 50 in this thread for Marks description of this.

Talk to you soon, John.
 
Hello,  Old Friend, I think you read my first sentence too fast; we all do that. Here it is, again:

 

<a style="font-family: Times; font-size: medium; font-weight: normal; line-height: 20px;" name="start_52592.752341"></a><span style="font-family: Times; font-size: small;"><span style="font-weight: normal; line-height: 20px;">"</span></span>Had high hopes that your baby would go from Suds right to soak, rather than stop and stay off. What a great option for really dirty stuff.  Hopes realized. Great. Thanks."

 

My high hopes were realized. I knew from the get go that this was the case, but I allowed for another possibility. See Reply #14.

 

You may see me soon because I'm back on the road and in the air again.

 

Any beds at the museum which is where I'd love to stay?
 
RTV Sealant

I can't figure why it won't help or work entirely to stick my finger up inside that hole and seal with good blue or red sealant, I can feel everything. Also on the underside of the baseplate, also on top of the baseplate as far as I can reach with a tiny paintbrush. I will also get the dispenser tube with sealant while I am at it. Since I can't get the agitator and inner tub out, I won't touch the tub-mounted filter at all. I believe it works, the appropriate ball of lint spits out once the drain starts.

akronman++4-26-2014-22-42-11.jpg
 
catalog pic

I believe this shows 2 views of a one piece grommit. The lower right view is exactly upside down, and the flange shown actually sits on the upside of the baseplate, and the tub simply presses against it, held by the tub bolts.. '

The depression between the ridges on the right side of the upper left view are exactly where the tub presses. I can feel all of this perfectly with my finger, so I believe sealant should work, and of course on the underside of the baseplate and top also.

I'd much rather get the agitator and spin tub out, but we even had the washer on it's side, with 2 guys pushing it up against a screwdriver forced against a floor post holding up my living room. Turning the screwdriver with a huge channel locks broke off about a quarter of the top of the screw. I can't imagine using a hand drill and having success drilling the mofo out, so I think this is currently my best bet. ???

akronman++4-26-2014-23-05-58.jpg
 
I'm late in the suggestion department, and maybe this wouldn't work either ...just to mention...I have applied heat , Lockease, let sit, heat again, tap the screw head with a sharp edge flat head screwdriver and direct taps to the head of the screw in the direction that would loosen it (I don't know if that's taps to the left or right, with this screw). The heat, the Lockease, and heat...tap, don't deliver crushing blows should ease it from its seated position.

I just re-read your postings and so - my idea isn't going to work -but for posterity- anyone with similar issues, that's another angle to try before blowing off the screw head with King Kong force.

Phil :-)
 
after picture

of the dispensers. Before pic was moldy and gross, lots of slow scraping and soaking.
I can see where the LK flow-through dispensers would be an improvement, but I'm guessing my cleanup here is first since 1975, so it should last unclogged quite a while again.

akronman++4-26-2014-23-11-16.jpg
 
Those dispensers get ugly pretty fast as I recall.  Diluting the fabric softener doesn't help much.  I had them out a few times on my mom's machine and had to make repairs to at least one if not both plungers.

 

Looks like the machine got a replacement belt at some point, unless they stopped using the green ones in '75.

 

Could it be possible that the agitator screw has a reverse thread?  Regardless, that is going to be a beautiful and refined machine after your work is through.
 
Have you tried....

...an impact driver on that stuck screw? Harbor Freight used to carry one. Sears still does. Basically you hammer on the back of the tool and it incrementally rotates the bit in the end of it. The combination of smacking and rotating will budge a lot of stubborn screws. Of course there's always the potential it COULD twist off, but that's one of the risks working on these machines.

Good luck!

-Jim

http://www.craftsman.com/craftsman-impact-driver/p-00947641000P?prdNo=9&blockNo=9&blockType=G9
 
Stuck Agitator Screw & Single shot Dispensers

Mark you can also drill into the stuck screw and use an easy out, this screw is a standard lefty loosely, rightly tightly screw.

Mark, your silicone sealant trick should work just fine to stop the leaks for a good while, but any used AW of this age needs a good rebuilding if one wants it to last 5 years or more.

The single shot dispensers that this washer used were used on various WP and KM models from 1960 till the early 80s. Yes these dispensers will clog very quickly on the fabric softener side if not used with common sense. I have this system on my 1971 LKM washer that I used for over 25 years after rebuilding and never had any clogging issues.

When ever I added softener I put it in full strength and added a cup of hot water as a chaser and almost every time I used the washer I added a cup of hot water to BOTH dispensers to keep them clean and the hose flushed, never a problem but I am sure that few users would ever think to do this.
 
Hey John

Yea, I think the easy out idea is good, I'll try it soon. I do strongly want to get it all apart, replace the drain hose grommet and center post grommet, throw a nice glob of sealant over the tub bolts, the porcelain seams of the outer tub, all the stuff one's supposed to do on an old WP/K. I also think it's really easier to drill/tap/EZ-out with all the assembly out of the washer, instead of standing over it, leaning, etc. We'll see.

My 1960 WP has the same technology dispensers, I've used them for 3.5 years with extra hot water poured in, etc, they stay clean with a small amount of care. This one takes about 1 and 1/3 cups each side, the old one was more like 3/4 only, so this should truly be easy to keep running free with that space for hot water each load.

As ugly as the cabinet looked, it's only surface rust and should all clean up and take new paint well. Colors are fine if you get a machine that doesn't need repainting, but I like white for the old rusty ones, so darn easy.

and I ran enough loads with the timer as is, it works perfectly, so I'm gonna do the diagram labelled changes while it's all apart. Energize and switch between one wire and one contact for that optional second rinse, and switch the suds to kick on as soon as draining begins. Currently, it drains out the drain hose until the water level switch kicks in. then you get maybe 18 suds gallons saved. The diagram shows where to re-wire to get all 25 gallons, suds saving right from the moment draining starts. I've gone thru many loads with both hoses in the same tub, my soapstone sink takes maybe 25 and 1/8 gallons, very close to overflow.
 
Finished(almost)

What a washer! The leak was the fabric/bleach dispenser hose and entire cheap plastic assembly all along, which I figured out after sealing everything else! And the base of the dispenser was full of cracks, see the bone-dry repair job, what a hoot!
I can see why it's wiser for Lady K to have flow through, no-clog dispensers. This one is now working imperfectly, the bleach side drains out about half way before the solenoid activates, I can't get it seated perfectly. But I can live with that, as rarely as I LCB. The FS side works fine. Both solenoids are pretty quiet instead of the loud ones on my 1960.

I used a patch of nylon window screen under the JB Weld for starters, held around the edges by tape. Once the first patch dried, I removed the tape and went over the entire area with a new coat of JB Weld to fill in the screen. 2 small leaks remained, sealed with blue RTV. Under the rusted Corwin clamp, a leaky hose, but most of the lenght was fine. On the top water level for washing, the very base of this hose is below the water level, so it leaks all thru a full tub load. I spliced in a 6 inch section, all new clamps, lots of slack for suspension movement, this washer is now DRY DRY DRY. Pretty hokey way to repair, but it can't be seen and it works. And, I doubt I could find a new dispenser.

akronman++5-3-2014-21-49-21.jpg
 
Filtering

Since I never got the inner tub out, but it doesn't leak a drop, I never got into the filter. But here's the lint from the sieve, it kicks out the drain hose, never the suds hose. I still don't know the details on how the hosing works with the suds valve and filter system, but you do not get the self-clean filter glog-O'Lint in the suds tub, only down the drain hose. SMART STUFF!

Yes, that strainer will be used Monday night for pasta!

akronman++5-3-2014-21-55-57.jpg
 
cycling

I jumpered the correct contact from the timer into the correct wire, and switched that line with a simple 120 V, 10amp toggle switch behind the console. As soon as the spin motor stops at the end of the normal cycle, it immediately fills for the second rinse. Seems like 4 minutes of agitation, then a thorough spin out with no spray rinsing. I'll rarely use it, but I finally have my automatic second rinse machine.

Since I watch most every load I ever wash, the lid hinges and lid sitting on the floor aren't a worry to me, lol. I'll fix that soon, no biggie.

The only other (non)-issue is the detergent dispenser solenoid, non-working, and I don't have the damn dispenser anyways, and it only kicks in at the longest time for each cycle, wouldn't even do any good if you only wanted 6 minutes or something. Wish I had it, but oh well.

So---Still left to do, the suds start out the drain hose, it only switches to the suds hose once the level switch calls for water. Then the rest, most, of the suds go in the correct tub. But my laundry tubs are huge, can hold it all, I gotta do the suggestion on the diagram for ALL suds into the suds tub.

ALSO----while sucking suds---it only sucks in until the level switch is satisfied! You can get baqck only 3/4 of a tub if you want! My 79 GE just simply sucks for 4 minutes regardless of the level switch. This is TOO COOL. This console does EVERYTHING.

I am also quite impressed with my songle speed, no option solid tub Speed Queen. The variety is what I enjoy.

Thanks for all suggestions and advice, I'll check soon with Gordon for that "all suds" feature.[this post was last edited: 5/4/2014-00:03]
 
Great Story!

Mark, you did a great job on this old girl, and I'm thrilled to know someone else appreciates this model as much as I do.  I have a soft spot for it, since in a way it's the first washer I ever shopped for and it certainly exceeded my expectations.

 

You nailed it re:  the detergent dispenser.  Using it is an exception rather than the rule.  You're not missing anything, but I understand that it would still be a novelty to have one and watch it work -- a time or two. 

 

The FS and LCB dispensers on my mom's machine had issues on more than one occasion.  I took to cutting patches from other plastic material that seemed compatible, and used a soldering gun to graft them onto the problem areas.  Ugly, but they all held.
 
KM BD Suds-Saver Operation

On Self-Cleaning filter models, the filter flushing-cleaning only occurs when the water is draining through the rinse drain hose, you can easily trace the drain hose goes from the pump to the two-way suds valve and then either to the SCF or out the suds-save-drain hose.

The water-level switch [ or even float ] was always in the circuit during Suds-Return on WP built washers, this prevented an overflow if somehow you had more water in the save tub than the washer could handle, many other washer brands [ I will not name them here, LOL ] were not this clever on their SSer models.

The Single-Shot dispensers were easy to fix, I think we still stock new dispenser bodies and the little plastic plunger with the rubber seal at the end. If your bleach is leaking out you need this plunger and seal.

The single shot detergent dispenser was ONLY meant to be used with either the soak-prewash followed by automatic advance to a 2nd wash period. You would never use this dispenser more than once for a regular single wash cycle as they were a mess to clean. I found one yesterday while cleaning at our parts room, and like most of these I have ever seen it was certainty never used.

John L.
 
John

Wow---that's some news! Price me up 2 plunger/seals and that detergent dispenser for sure if you're interested in selling. Or at least take a pic of the dispenser. With the detergent solenoid not working, maybe I ain't interested? But it would be nice to see what it looks like.

But for sure I'll buy the plungers, might as well get 2 if you have them around. All the leaks are sealed on that cheap plastic piece of crap, every RTV color of the rainbow, and the solenoids are fine.

While I don't expect to use the Soak-To-Wash and extra rinse often, it's quite a cycle. First it pulls in the amount of suds you want on low speed, then 4 minutes low speed agitation, then 20ish minutes of pause/10seconds low spped agi/etc. Then 4 minutes more of low speed agitation, drain out the drain hose, low speed spin with no sprays. Then automatically into 14 minutes of highspeed wash cycle with new detergent dispensed, suds get saved at the end of wash, the normal Kenmore spray rinses before and after deep rinse. Then it goes into the final rinse, with no spraying afterwards. That is one big long deluxe cycle with so many options in it. It's just over 180degrees of the timer, start to finish! Once in a while, for the hell of it, I gotta find some really grossly dirty clothes and just let her rip. And let the water meter just rip too, lol. For the price I paid for this machine, I got quite a highly optioned powerhouse.

And that tub, it matches right up there with extra-sized Maytags, doesn't it? So far, the Penta-Swirl does everything. Not wildly, like 1-18's and Norges, but effectively.

John--thanks for help and advice--
Mark
 
Design flaw

Well nothing is perfect, but this surprised me. On the highest water level, the tub water is about an inch above the bottom of the FS and LCB dispensers. Between that and no flo-through water design, the LCB barely moves!!!!! The fabic softener, on the other hand, gets dispensed when the tub is just barely beginning to fill for rinse, so that runs down the hose and into the tub properly. But with no flo-through, if it isn't strongly diluted, I bet some stays in that hose for sure to be flushed out the next time I'm dumb enough to try the other half for bleach. On the other hand, any level below full would allow everything to work properly.

Tons of this machine is cool as hell and works wonderfully, but nothing about the dispenser system is very well designed or built. At least it no longer leaks.

Other than that, a strong machine and all the options one wants for cycles/sudsing/extra rinse, very good washer here. 39 years old and going strong.
 
Single Shot LC Bleach Dispenser

Good observation Mark, I have also often thought that this looked like less than a perfect way for the bleach to enter the wash water, although it does seem to work.

If you look at the WP-KM both BD and DD and MT machines without the solenoid it would also seem that the LCB would just get stuck in the hose that leads to the bottom of the outer tub if it was added after the washer was filled, but again it does seem to work.

On my 1971 LKM that has the dispenser like yours I ran the hose from the dispenser to a port on the side check valve, this way the LCB, and softener is sucked into the recirculating water system. You can actually hear it going in as when the last of it goes down you hear the sucking sound.
 
Hey John Combo

John------I'll gladly run that hose elsewhere. Read your emails, buddy, if you are interested in selling 2 of those plunger/seals. Then the whole assembly will work perfectly and I'll gladly run the hose elsewhere, it will solve their design flaw. Then this washer will kinda be better than brand new. Kinda. And the dispensers will work for any water level, properly, and all fluids will get into the system.

Gordon----I am hoping you are reading----you have given great help on Kenmores, and you were right on the leak, I sure as hell wasn't.

I am getting more familiar with the hoses, this baby has quite a few. I am guessing I need to run it into #47 on this diagram, the hose from the outgoing pump to the suds valve? During agitation(for LCB Dispensing), that hose does this: (I am asking more than stating knowledge)
a)Tub water gets sucked into the filter thru the one side port.
b)goes out the bottom hose connection on the outer side of filter.
c)continues thru the "jumper hose" that stick out the back of the cabinet
d) goes thru the suds valve to the inside-the-cabinet connection, this hose 47 to splice
e)goes thru the negative pressure, sucking pump and thereby into the bottom of the tub for agitation and bleaching.

Haha, I learned all that as I stared at the diagram and typed!

Then , for Fabric Softening, the dispenser will open simultaneously with the water valves open for rinse water. The diluted softener will run down my new hose into hose #47 close to the pump and sit while the tub fills(diluting more as the hose fills, but there's no active flow right now). When agitation starts, it will rapidly get pulled into the stream of negative pressure water, just like the LCB during active water flow, and come into the tub at the bottom drain opening, base of outer tub.

Now, if anyone has any patience left, and kinda for the archives for Kenmore Suds Models mid 70's with this tub mount self-cleaning filter, I'm gonna list for myself and any overly patiient fellow what happens:

First of all, this huge Kenmore knows many laundry tubs wont hold 25 gallons, so it starts with a normal drain into your sewer:
a)flapper inside the pump moves for outgoing pumping, high speed positive pressure and the suds valve stays in the agitation mode. Water moves from the bottom of the tub, thru the pump, thru hose 47 to the susd valve, into that exterior jumper hose again, to the bottom port on the exterior of the filter, backwashes out the lint thru the top port on the outside of the filter, then right out the hose for sewer draining, gone gone gone.

When the water level switch calls for water, it instead activates the suds valve. The pressurized pumping water instead flows into your suds drain tub for saving. The other hose from the suds valve is inactive now, so the backwashing lint filtering is inactive now. You only get clean suds, no lint. Since no suds get saved for rinse water, again it automatically backwashes out the correct hose, from start to finish of rinse pumpouts. Anyone interested, this machine automatically saves suds on NORMAL and KNIT-Delicate, no savings on PermaPress.

From typing this out, I am guessing there is a check valve of some sort built right into the tub-mounted filter
.

Is good old Home D gonna have a 1" barb fitting with a 3/8 or so tee? I guess I better find that before cutting a hose, lol. Or a 1" tee, then a reducing fitting or two. There's decent space near the pump and up to this dispenser for plumbing add-ons.

I apologize for the longest thread of the year, but typing it out and running it past some pro's solidifies it in my head. I love my BOL machines too, trust me, but some brains went into all this machines behaviors. Except the cheap plastic dispenser!
Done typing----thanks to you all for advice and patient reading.
MArk

akronman++5-5-2014-14-33-7.jpg.png
 

Similar threads

jons1077
1965 Kenmore 70 Suds-Saver Coppertone Washer Rebuild
Replies
15
Views
335
114jwh
1
E
Westinghouse Continental Owners/Service Manual
Replies
4
Views
292
esgelrothion
E
phillymatt53
EXPERTS HELP!....... KENMORE PORTABLE WASHER ISSUE?
Replies
12
Views
499
phillymatt53
phillymatt53
L
Kenmore Series 70 pros/cons
Replies
3
Views
205
DADoES
DADoES
K
Kenmore Washer Timer
Replies
3
Views
81
kenmore70
K

Latest posts

Back
Top