Appliance Simplicity

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support :

Chetlaham

Well-known member
Platinum Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
4,235
Location
United States
A while back I made a thread asking why US DW weren't simpler. I finally found a video of exactly what I had in mind:

 



 

 

I can't help but be smittened by the simplicity and durability of the internals of this machine. Commercial grade metal timer, shaded pole main motor, chunky drain pump motor, heated sump, and simple circuits. No electronics, diverters, inverter motors, UAP pump mechanisms, extra buttons... Just straight up simplicity. The sump even appears to be molded into the tub- brilliant way of reducing leaks.    
 
Absolutely! You can even see the silverware basket moving about. All done with a simple shaded pole motor.

 

It puzzles me why US manufacturers never used these concepts in the past, or why they bother with using brush motors or inverters today.     
 
Simple Compact DW

This DW would only hold about 1/3 of the dishes of a regular 24'DW while using more water and electricity and making a lot of noise.

 

I would also estimate looking at the construction it would probably only last a few hundred loads before you had multiple failures with this DW.

 

So it should be pretty obvious why DWs like this are not built and sold in more advanced countries.

 

Climate Change Is Real.

 

John L.
 
John

Would you mind not being so opinionated?

Your stereotyped view of Brazil as "underdeveloped" is completely wrong.

Guess what:

1) You having an opinion, doesn't mean it's a fact.

2) The world doesn't spin around you.

3) the horizon is not on your belly button

4) This dishwasher, MADE IN BRAZIL is also sold by Bosch in Europe.. you know... Germany, that "poor country". (Wink)

5) it's made to last T least 6500 cycles... it's a mandatory standard in Brazil. It's the law in my "underdeveloped" home country. That's why dishwashers and washers have counters just like cars have odometers. If more than 6% of units in the same lot fail under 6500 cycles, Electrolux would be forced to recall and replace the whole lot for free, even if the warranty is already expired.

6) INMETRO efficiency and performance standards (the federal standards in that "underdeveloped" country that you mentioned) are way more rigid than DOE standards. It MUST perform great, not only "barely acceptable" and it MUST use less water and electricity than DOE would allow.
 
"More advanced countries"?

 

Wikipedia says: "Brazil is the world's tenth largest energy consumer with much of its energy coming from renewable sources, particularly hydroelectricity and ethanol; the Itaipu Dam is the world's largest hydroelectric plant by energy generation, and the country has other large plants like Belo Monte and Tucuruí. The first car with an ethanol engine was produced in 1978 and the first airplane engine running on ethanol in 2005"
 
I don't know how that registers as simpler? If we are referring to types of motors, then perhaps we can say it is simpler. I would agree that any timer would make a simpler machine compared to an electronic control. But to my mind simplicity has several subjective connotations. Is a GE Triton dishwasher not simple? A removable sump may be a complication but makes a failed sump a simple repair compared to a one piece machine with silverware that fell on the heater and melted through the bottom. To get ahead of folks, it is best to define terms first instead of waiting for trolls to attack a vague idea.
 
I should have been more specific, but I didn't want to complicate things. Several things stand out:

 

1) The motor is not an inverter or brushed like on new GE machines.

 

2) half a gallons of water is not retained in the sump like on old GE machines. 

 

3) no complex UAP mechanisms like on D&M machines. 

 

4) Plenty of water pressure and cleaning despite such a low output motor.

 

5) No extra buttons, wiring or so forth.

 

Its just two simple line frequency induction pumps and a manual clean filter which leads to stellar performance, less energy, long life and at less cost.

 

Yet you had US machines like D&M, GE, Hobart, Westinghouse, BOL Whirlpools, ect that had limited or no filtration, giant motors, water hold over, multi level pumps, high volume rate, more water and power and yet left particles behind- in general.

 

Of course you had the total self cleaning filtering machines with grinders like Maytag, Whirlpool, latter Kitchen-Aids so the extra complexity and motor power can be forgiven on the account the user doesn't have to clean the filter - but none the less this convenience comes at many costs.

 

Also, the sumps in these Brazil machines has a grate and filter which would stop large metal objects from falling through melting the plastic. 

 

I think John's (combo's) attitude answers the question originally posed. In the US there is so much Chauvinism, exceptionalism and arrogance displayed that any alternative ideas are rejected by default. With that said Brazil is one of the most advanced and energy independent countries on earth.   

 

 

 
 
If you look at some of the current south American top load washers from Brastemp and Electrolux the washing action is pathetic. Whirlpool's vmw with agitators seem to perform better in the North American market. There are plenty of videos that attest to this. It would seem their machines are inferior.
 
Simple Compact DW

Hi Thomas, I am entitled to offer my option on any appliance matters that I please, And I know that you have never offered an option about anything on this site, LOL

 

And I did not say anything negative about Brazil, but while you brought it up I am tired of you bashing US agencies like DOE, Large majorities of Americans approve of and vote for better energy efficiency including a majority here on AW.

 

I have spent my life promoting better energy efficiency and even consulted with experts at DOE etc with some of my ideas to improve reliability and energy efficiency in new appliances.

 

I stand by my comments about this POS compact DW, it is very obvious that it is a substandard cheaply built DW that is not designed to last long [ plastic zip-ties for hose clamps ]hot running shaded pole main pump motor I would be shocked if Bosch really sells this DW with their name on it and would like to know where they sell it with the Bosch name  on it.

 

Thomas, where is the cycle counter on this DW and what is the maximum number of cycles it can record ?, Can the consumer see this information ?

 

John L.
 
@agiflow: Whirlpool uses their VMW system on many, many South American washers, and the rest is basically knock off clones of the VMW system. You can't bash South American machines without bashing the VMW system- though I understand you are referring to the agitation itself vs the drive mechanism as a whole or over-all.

 

@john: While your reply is not directed at me, if this substandard design with 2 small 60Hz motors, molded sump and manual clean fine filter had been implemented on BOL D&M, Maytag, Hotpoint, GE, ect machines clean-ability would not have only shot up, but water and energy consumption would have dropped by more than 1/5 in addition to noise. Ignore the zip ties, they could have easily be changed to hose clamps in US production. 

 

What blows my mind is that the US until the late 2000s produced a machine that literally designed their drain valves as such to keep 1/4 of a gallon of water in the sump and pump body, and prior to that over a half gallon if not more. People complaining about yibble left on everything, yet GE and others just laughing about it. A few giant holes in the spray arm (so as to not clog over unfiltered food bits) which through lots of water around but with little force or strategic planning.

 

I also fail to see how a shaded pole motor can not be designed to last long, and as far as I'm concerned that permanent magnet drain pump looks like a US clone in many way and probably is consider DW pumps are made by a select few companies like Hanning.

 

       

 

 
 
Thanks :) Clean and rinse ability is directly tied to water carry over. I've read several DW engineering books which stressed reducing water carry over in every way possible going as far as including it in their equations which makes sense. What GE and others were thinking I have no idea. 
 
@chetlaham

Whirlpool doesn't use the VMW platform in Brazil There they still use the plain old WWW.

The washers are smaller than the VMW and there até several factory that impact (positively and negatively) any washer in Brazil compared to the USA.

1) DOE X INMETRO: Although both countries want washers to be overall efficient, the USA standards focus more on water efficiency. In Brazil, water was never a problem, but electricity is outrageously expensive, so the INMETRO standards are thrifty with electrical efficiency. A Brastemp washer, as is, would never pass the DOE test because it uses too much water and a US Whirlpool (whatever top load model) would never pass the INMETRO test because it uses too much electricity.

2) Hot water: Here in the US, using hot or at least warm water for laundry is something that everybody knows. In Brazil, If you mention "hot water", MANY PEOPLE, ORDINARY PEOPLE chosen randomly among the population would look at you with a giant neon question mark blinking above their heads and ask "why the heck would somebody use hot or warm water for laundry?"

Of course, there we also have dirty clothes, Brazilians also spill tomato sauce on their white shirts, ring around the collar exists there too and yep, also tire marks. The same nasty stuff dirty laundry has all over the World.

Washers are devices made to clean clothes, in Brazil it's not different. How can we clean a load of whites that is horrible and in cold water? Solution: time and different detergents (huge biological load that makes US Tide look silly). But we can't use too much electricity, so the washers soak like crazy and agitate briefly. Some washers can reach way beyond 4 hours to complete a cycle, that's considering 3.5 hours only soaking. (Longest cycles) a "normal" cycle is often above 1 hour and the "quick" cycle is comparable to the US "normal" cycle.

Not so strangely, using a Brazilian detergent in an American washer will end up in terrible results and vice-versa.

3) The culture is also an important factor. In both countries people don't have time, however, in Brazil, the culture of the "housewife" is still very strong. It's almost like the US in 1950s (man working, women taking care of home and kids). Of course, nowadays this changed a lot (since 1970s) and women also work. But most women still have that "pride" of being a housewife, many iron even bath towels and starch their husband's shirts. (One would be shocked with the number of Brazilians that iron even cleaning rags). It's somewhat sad to see this sexist culture but many women, in 2021, still believe that to "keep a husband", they must cook better than Martha Stewart, clean, sew, do laundry and be always smiling and serve the husband a cold beer when he arrives home. At this point it's different of the US culture of postponing the laundry as much as possible and then toss everything in the washer and use the quick cycle because want the load done in 30 minutes. Most Brazilian women don't see laundry or cooking or waxing the floors as a chore, but as an statement that they're a "complete" woman. (Rolling eyes but that's a fact). That also affects dramatically the way washers are designed.

4) I had a Maytag Centennial (HORRIBLE washer btw) and of course I've designed many electrolux and used many washers made by Whirlpool (Brastemp or Consul) they don't compare at all, they're completely different probably the only thing that is somewhat similar is how slow both agitate. Ignoring the agencies testing procedures or standards, just putting a Brazilian washer in an American home and an American washer in a Brazilian home would definitely end up in frustration for both. users because of those cultural differences.

5) Regarding dishwashers, we fall back on the culture and manufacturers have a bigger challenge: in the USA, its difficult to find a home WITHOUT a dishwasher. In Brazil dishwashers aren't that popular. That's NOT because they cannot afford one, that's because of prejudice. I remember clearly my mom's friends seeing she had a dishwasher she bought here in the USA and asking her "but aren't you afraid your husband will think you're a whore and leave you because you have a machine to do what a woman has the obligation to do?" Or "oh, but you're such a great housewife, why do you have a dishwasher? That thing is for lazy women". And also, the myths... oh, but you have to prewash everything in the sink first because you of course don't want to put dirty dishes in a dishwasher, right? Or how can that thing clean if it doesn't have an abrasive sponge scrubbing the dirt away? Or "ewww, you're going to wash the glasses in the same water you're washing this greasy mixing bowl? The result will surely be horrible." This is slowly changing only now, finally! So, whoever wants to sell a dishwasher in Brazil must make sure it can clean the dishes the sofa, the kids, the sins and the criminal record. the performance must be absurdly spectacular and it must be reliable to OCD levels because more than federal standards, people already buy dishwashers having mixed feelings and being very skeptical that it will work. It just need a single tea spoon coming out poorly washed for them to say "see? I told you dishwashers are stupid gimmick that only work in American movies, let's return it an never again think about the stupid idea of having one".
 
I will only talk about myself here...

But I know sometimes I get cranky and opinionated and then I realize I need more fiber in my diet. It helps to get more fruit too. Once, I do, I feel better because my friends knew me before I had enough fiber, they prefer me after!
 

Latest posts

Back
Top