STPP is not a bleach. It does soften and "charge" the water so detergents can work much more effectively.
Cascade phosphate free is getting TERRIBLE reviews by customers!
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STPP is not a bleach. It does soften and "charge" the water so detergents can work much more effectively.
No, It Won't On It's Own
What phosphates will do is deal with mineral/hard water residue, which when cleared makes a surface appear cleaner.
Case in point, the stainless steel wash tub on my Miele shines like new, and the frequent use of phosphate laden or added detergent is the cause IMHO.
Certain stains or their remaining traces can only be "removed" with bleaches. Used the words in quotes because bleaching normally does not remove stains, but merely breaks apart whatever colour stains have.
If you take a white item that has been stained and washed with bleaching agents, hold it up to the light and you will most always see the outline of the stains still there. You cannot see the stain because it's colour has been removed, but never the less the stain is there.
Chlorine bleach does not care what colour it removes. Dyes, fruits, veggies, blood, etc all often can be decolourised by the stuff. Oxygen bleach OTHO acts on natural "dyes" such as tannins and such,this is why they are called "colour safe" bleaches. Long as the dye used on a textile is colourfast and one does not subject the item to very hot to boiling water temperatures, the colour should remain. Though frequent use of oxygen bleaches, especially activated and or percarbonate bleaches can and often will fade colours. This is why Persil and other European detergents have special versions for colours, formulated without bleaches and often bluing agents.
What phosphates will do is deal with mineral/hard water residue, which when cleared makes a surface appear cleaner.
Case in point, the stainless steel wash tub on my Miele shines like new, and the frequent use of phosphate laden or added detergent is the cause IMHO.
Certain stains or their remaining traces can only be "removed" with bleaches. Used the words in quotes because bleaching normally does not remove stains, but merely breaks apart whatever colour stains have.
If you take a white item that has been stained and washed with bleaching agents, hold it up to the light and you will most always see the outline of the stains still there. You cannot see the stain because it's colour has been removed, but never the less the stain is there.
Chlorine bleach does not care what colour it removes. Dyes, fruits, veggies, blood, etc all often can be decolourised by the stuff. Oxygen bleach OTHO acts on natural "dyes" such as tannins and such,this is why they are called "colour safe" bleaches. Long as the dye used on a textile is colourfast and one does not subject the item to very hot to boiling water temperatures, the colour should remain. Though frequent use of oxygen bleaches, especially activated and or percarbonate bleaches can and often will fade colours. This is why Persil and other European detergents have special versions for colours, formulated without bleaches and often bluing agents.
strongenough78
Well-known member
LOL!!
I guess I should have real all the entries in this thread before posting up my on going paragraph lol. It seems many have found the Cascade at Big Lots! as I did. But those posts were a few weeks old which means it's still out there. Good luck everyone!
I guess I should have real all the entries in this thread before posting up my on going paragraph lol. It seems many have found the Cascade at Big Lots! as I did. But those posts were a few weeks old which means it's still out there. Good luck everyone!
European nations tried banning phosphates from dw detergent
Bet many a detergent maker in the EU wishes the powers that be would just make up their minds, instead of lurching back and froth.
Product makers in the United States knew ages ago it was very hard to formulate an automatic dishwasher detergent without phosphates. This is why even though many gave up the fight when it came to laundry, they dug in their heels when it came to dishwasher products. Judging by current events, it seems the same is holding true today.
With the EU having one of the first alternatives to phosphates in their cross hairs; namely Zeolites, things are going to get interesting.
Bet many a detergent maker in the EU wishes the powers that be would just make up their minds, instead of lurching back and froth.
Product makers in the United States knew ages ago it was very hard to formulate an automatic dishwasher detergent without phosphates. This is why even though many gave up the fight when it came to laundry, they dug in their heels when it came to dishwasher products. Judging by current events, it seems the same is holding true today.
With the EU having one of the first alternatives to phosphates in their cross hairs; namely Zeolites, things are going to get interesting.
Local Shop Put Back Cascade With Phosphates Last Week
While the new stuff sits largely untouched, the old formula "Cascade Complete" with about 5.5% phosphates (can't remember the exact amount), is flying off the shelf. Peeked last night when one went in for a carton of milk.
While the new stuff sits largely untouched, the old formula "Cascade Complete" with about 5.5% phosphates (can't remember the exact amount), is flying off the shelf. Peeked last night when one went in for a carton of milk.
lordkenmore
Well-known member
Launderess, what is the problem with zeolites?
Response to Whirlcool (Comments on gov't bans of STPP)
Although the government can ban phosphates in detergent manufacturing for home use, I do not think it is possible to completely ban STPP and other phosphate compounds in general.
STPP is widely used in industry as a water softening compound for manufacturing operations and as a processing aid for some food manufacturing operations. The chemical supply house I get my STPP from sells food grade STPP (around 100 lbs/month) to a local food manufacturer.
I read a study about the effects of a phosphate ban for commercial dishwashing compounds. The study showed it would not be feasible for commercial establishments because alternative compounds would not clean effectively. (Duh...what the rest of the general public now knows all too well.)
I also found an EU study about the environmental effects of phosphate detergent bans. They concluded that the increased water and energy usage resulting from individuals rewashing poorly cleaned dishes (from phosphate free formulations) had a more negative effect than algal growth from phosphate based detergents.
Although the government can ban phosphates in detergent manufacturing for home use, I do not think it is possible to completely ban STPP and other phosphate compounds in general.
STPP is widely used in industry as a water softening compound for manufacturing operations and as a processing aid for some food manufacturing operations. The chemical supply house I get my STPP from sells food grade STPP (around 100 lbs/month) to a local food manufacturer.
I read a study about the effects of a phosphate ban for commercial dishwashing compounds. The study showed it would not be feasible for commercial establishments because alternative compounds would not clean effectively. (Duh...what the rest of the general public now knows all too well.)
I also found an EU study about the environmental effects of phosphate detergent bans. They concluded that the increased water and energy usage resulting from individuals rewashing poorly cleaned dishes (from phosphate free formulations) had a more negative effect than algal growth from phosphate based detergents.
@lordkenmore
Zeolites are for technical purposes a type of clay that is insoluble. There is a worry in certain quarters of the EU that the "sludge" produced by large amounts of the stuff will harm waterways and aquatic life.
Personally cannot stand Zeolites and my laundry has less "dust" and feels softer when washed in detergents that do not contain the stuff. Liquid detergents for a start don't contain aluminum silicates, nor do some of the better European commercial laundry detergents.
Zeolites are for technical purposes a type of clay that is insoluble. There is a worry in certain quarters of the EU that the "sludge" produced by large amounts of the stuff will harm waterways and aquatic life.
Personally cannot stand Zeolites and my laundry has less "dust" and feels softer when washed in detergents that do not contain the stuff. Liquid detergents for a start don't contain aluminum silicates, nor do some of the better European commercial laundry detergents.
Personally cannot stand Zeolites
I find that a bit incongruous since one has been a Persil fan for ages, and Persil has been loaded to the gills with zeolite for ages as well.
I think zeolites are ok, and that they do result in softer results than powders that rely on sodium carbonate alone for water softening chores.
I've read that the objection to zeolites on the part of the EU folks has to do with the chore of dealing with the resulting increased amounts of sludge in the sewage treatment plants, which costs money.
I find that a bit incongruous since one has been a Persil fan for ages, and Persil has been loaded to the gills with zeolite for ages as well.
I think zeolites are ok, and that they do result in softer results than powders that rely on sodium carbonate alone for water softening chores.
I've read that the objection to zeolites on the part of the EU folks has to do with the chore of dealing with the resulting increased amounts of sludge in the sewage treatment plants, which costs money.
YeaBut
Have a huge arsenal of laundry products to choose from, and have only just recently opened the second box in the case of Persil in my stash.
Even then do not use Persil for my linens, or on some items of clothing. Have a nice stash of European commercial laundry detergent for that, and it does not contain Zeolites.
Now that one has discovered Ariel Excel gel, when this stash of Persil is done, that will be it, though it could take along time.
Have a huge arsenal of laundry products to choose from, and have only just recently opened the second box in the case of Persil in my stash.
Even then do not use Persil for my linens, or on some items of clothing. Have a nice stash of European commercial laundry detergent for that, and it does not contain Zeolites.
Now that one has discovered Ariel Excel gel, when this stash of Persil is done, that will be it, though it could take along time.
Persil Fan
If you ever read some of my posts back in my ThatHomeSite days, I stated clearly Persil really did not have that much over Tide HE. Only reason one has Persil now is due to nabbing a case of the stuff for less than the local cost of one box. Otherwise really wouldn't have bothered.
Tide HE when juiced with phosphates gives Persil a run for it's money. Heck Tide HE "Free and Clear" liquid can give Persil a run for it's money at times than Persil.
Have several bottles each of Perwoll and "Black Velvet" as well. Again only because one found the lot for less than the cost of one bottle locally.
If you ever read some of my posts back in my ThatHomeSite days, I stated clearly Persil really did not have that much over Tide HE. Only reason one has Persil now is due to nabbing a case of the stuff for less than the local cost of one box. Otherwise really wouldn't have bothered.
Tide HE when juiced with phosphates gives Persil a run for it's money. Heck Tide HE "Free and Clear" liquid can give Persil a run for it's money at times than Persil.
Have several bottles each of Perwoll and "Black Velvet" as well. Again only because one found the lot for less than the cost of one bottle locally.
Thanks for the STPP tip!
For the past few months I've been using Cascade/Dawn Action pacs and the cleaning was just OK. I made ribs and the glass Pyrex dish was somewhat burnt for leaving it in the oven too long so I've added 1-2 Tbs of STPP with the pac and the dish was cleaned except 2 little area and as for the aluminum pots, they finally shined as if I was using the old Cascade.
For the past few months I've been using Cascade/Dawn Action pacs and the cleaning was just OK. I made ribs and the glass Pyrex dish was somewhat burnt for leaving it in the oven too long so I've added 1-2 Tbs of STPP with the pac and the dish was cleaned except 2 little area and as for the aluminum pots, they finally shined as if I was using the old Cascade.
lordkenmore
Well-known member
Thanks for the zeolite info!
I've heard rumblings of discontent from time to time, and have long wondered what was wrong. But the only "enemy" that gets talked about loudly is phosphates.
I've heard rumblings of discontent from time to time, and have long wondered what was wrong. But the only "enemy" that gets talked about loudly is phosphates.
False Alarm
Just came in from the aforementioned shop that had the "old" version of Cascade Complete powder a week or so ago. Peeped today and the stuff is gone, replaced by the horrid new version.
Store merely put out a case of the old formula they had sitting in stock, or that is what the manager on duty stated.
Anywho, as the product wasn't on sale, and at nearly $8.00 didn't purchase any, nor had the room to stock up if one wanted. My laundry product/detergent/soap stash is pretty much taking up all available space, including nooks and crannies! *LOL* Besides still have a bottle of the old Cascade Complete "Hydroclean with Bleach" gel am working through. As we don't run the machine daily, indeed sometimes not for several days, this may take awhile.
Since have plenty of STPP on hand, and will always continue to do so, will simply purchase the new stuff (if that is all one can find at that time), and sex it up a bit with phosphate powder. Am keen to try the new Cascade "Essentials" version in the white box anyway.
L.
Just came in from the aforementioned shop that had the "old" version of Cascade Complete powder a week or so ago. Peeped today and the stuff is gone, replaced by the horrid new version.
Store merely put out a case of the old formula they had sitting in stock, or that is what the manager on duty stated.
Anywho, as the product wasn't on sale, and at nearly $8.00 didn't purchase any, nor had the room to stock up if one wanted. My laundry product/detergent/soap stash is pretty much taking up all available space, including nooks and crannies! *LOL* Besides still have a bottle of the old Cascade Complete "Hydroclean with Bleach" gel am working through. As we don't run the machine daily, indeed sometimes not for several days, this may take awhile.
Since have plenty of STPP on hand, and will always continue to do so, will simply purchase the new stuff (if that is all one can find at that time), and sex it up a bit with phosphate powder. Am keen to try the new Cascade "Essentials" version in the white box anyway.
L.
mr_sparkle
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2005
- Messages
- 118
Water Softners
I am surprised to read a couple of people comment that US machines do not have built in water softners?
All dishwashers in the UK have softners built in, and I thought this was the same with all dishwashers all over the globe, and a standard part of all machines.
How come US dishwashers do not have built in softners?
I am surprised to read a couple of people comment that US machines do not have built in water softners?
All dishwashers in the UK have softners built in, and I thought this was the same with all dishwashers all over the globe, and a standard part of all machines.
How come US dishwashers do not have built in softners?
Oh yes, the German phosphate-free detergents did horrible. Most products failed all the way. Not only did they not clean dishes well, they also damaged them - more or less. Glasses became dull and/or covered with spots, stainless steel items (including the dishwasher) turned rainbow-colored in some cases. Even expensive brands like Ecover failed to wash away egg and starch residue.
There were three tabs that did a "good" job cleaning on the 2.5 hrs. 122°F cycle. The water hardness was regulated at 9 gpg.
The all-in-one type of tabs all failed to prevent lime scale residue. Water hardness was regulated at 21 gpg.
Only two tabs with phosphate could clean "good" both on the 122° as well as a 104°F cycle. Water hardness, again, was regulated at 21 gpg.
Anyone interested in reading the German test - send me an email.
Alex
There were three tabs that did a "good" job cleaning on the 2.5 hrs. 122°F cycle. The water hardness was regulated at 9 gpg.
The all-in-one type of tabs all failed to prevent lime scale residue. Water hardness was regulated at 21 gpg.
Only two tabs with phosphate could clean "good" both on the 122° as well as a 104°F cycle. Water hardness, again, was regulated at 21 gpg.
Anyone interested in reading the German test - send me an email.
Alex
Alex,
I'd like to see that report if it's in English.
But I clicked on your name and don't see an option for sending you an email...
Rich
I'd like to see that report if it's in English.
But I clicked on your name and don't see an option for sending you an email...
Rich
According To The Finish Website
Only the "Powerball" tablets (also sold under the Electrasol brand name), contain phosphates. The Quantum versions with and without powerball are phosphate free.
Sssssssoooooooo, as one missed out on the Cascade Complete, will start stocking up on Finish tabs. Now that New York State has moved to ban phosphates, have a feeling they won't be on the shelves long.
Only the "Powerball" tablets (also sold under the Electrasol brand name), contain phosphates. The Quantum versions with and without powerball are phosphate free.
Sssssssoooooooo, as one missed out on the Cascade Complete, will start stocking up on Finish tabs. Now that New York State has moved to ban phosphates, have a feeling they won't be on the shelves long.
The Finish website is probably out of date. In this area, the phosphated Finish Powerball tablets were among the first to be hoovered from the shelves; nothing but phosphate-free has been around (in any of the places I shop) for some time. Yet the Quantum versions can still be had with phosphates in places if you look around the back of the shelves. It's just a matter of local variations.
This is just as well with me, since the Powerball tabs gave a tendency to get rock hard. The Quantum seem to have a better shelf life as they have a powder loose inside the clear casing.
This is just as well with me, since the Powerball tabs gave a tendency to get rock hard. The Quantum seem to have a better shelf life as they have a powder loose inside the clear casing.
All you folks in states with bans... I think you need to start writing your legislators and demanding that the phosphates be added back into consumer grade dishwasher detergents. You might mention the European fiasco.
