Cascade phosphate free is getting TERRIBLE reviews by customers!

[launderess]

No, It Won't On It's Own

What phosphates will do is deal with mineral/hard water residue, which when cleared makes a surface appear cleaner.

Case in point, the stainless steel wash tub on my Miele shines like new, and the frequent use of phosphate laden or added detergent is the cause IMHO.

Certain stains or their remaining traces can only be "removed" with bleaches. Used the words in quotes because bleaching normally does not remove stains, but merely breaks apart whatever colour stains have.

If you take a white item that has been stained and washed with bleaching agents, hold it up to the light and you will most always see the outline of the stains still there. You cannot see the stain because it's colour has been removed, but never the less the stain is there.

Chlorine bleach does not care what colour it removes. Dyes, fruits, veggies, blood, etc all often can be decolourised by the stuff. Oxygen bleach OTHO acts on natural "dyes" such as tannins and such,this is why they are called "colour safe" bleaches. Long as the dye used on a textile is colourfast and one does not subject the item to very hot to boiling water temperatures, the colour should remain. Though frequent use of oxygen bleaches, especially activated and or percarbonate bleaches can and often will fade colours. This is why Persil and other European detergents have special versions for colours, formulated without bleaches and often bluing agents.

 

[strongenough78]

LOL!!

I guess I should have real all the entries in this thread before posting up my on going paragraph lol. It seems many have found the Cascade at Big Lots! as I did. But those posts were a few weeks old which means it's still out there. Good luck everyone!

 

[launderess]

European nations tried banning phosphates from dw detergent

Bet many a detergent maker in the EU wishes the powers that be would just make up their minds, instead of lurching back and froth.

Product makers in the United States knew ages ago it was very hard to formulate an automatic dishwasher detergent without phosphates. This is why even though many gave up the fight when it came to laundry, they dug in their heels when it came to dishwasher products. Judging by current events, it seems the same is holding true today.

With the EU having one of the first alternatives to phosphates in their cross hairs; namely Zeolites, things are going to get interesting.

 

[launderess]

Local Shop Put Back Cascade With Phosphates Last Week

While the new stuff sits largely untouched, the old formula "Cascade Complete" with about 5.5% phosphates (can't remember the exact amount), is flying off the shelf. Peeked last night when one went in for a carton of milk.

 

[lordkenmore]

Launderess, what is the problem with zeolites?

 

[labboy]

Response to Whirlcool (Comments on gov't bans of STPP)

Although the government can ban phosphates in detergent manufacturing for home use, I do not think it is possible to completely ban STPP and other phosphate compounds in general.

STPP is widely used in industry as a water softening compound for manufacturing operations and as a processing aid for some food manufacturing operations. The chemical supply house I get my STPP from sells food grade STPP (around 100 lbs/month) to a local food manufacturer.

I read a study about the effects of a phosphate ban for commercial dishwashing compounds. The study showed it would not be feasible for commercial establishments because alternative compounds would not clean effectively. (Duh...what the rest of the general public now knows all too well.)

I also found an EU study about the environmental effects of phosphate detergent bans. They concluded that the increased water and energy usage resulting from individuals rewashing poorly cleaned dishes (from phosphate free formulations) had a more negative effect than algal growth from phosphate based detergents.

 

[launderess]

@lordkenmore

Zeolites are for technical purposes a type of clay that is insoluble. There is a worry in certain quarters of the EU that the "sludge" produced by large amounts of the stuff will harm waterways and aquatic life.

Personally cannot stand Zeolites and my laundry has less "dust" and feels softer when washed in detergents that do not contain the stuff. Liquid detergents for a start don't contain aluminum silicates, nor do some of the better European commercial laundry detergents.

 

[sudsmaster]

Personally cannot stand Zeolites

I find that a bit incongruous since one has been a Persil fan for ages, and Persil has been loaded to the gills with zeolite for ages as well.

I think zeolites are ok, and that they do result in softer results than powders that rely on sodium carbonate alone for water softening chores.

I've read that the objection to zeolites on the part of the EU folks has to do with the chore of dealing with the resulting increased amounts of sludge in the sewage treatment plants, which costs money.

 

[launderess]

YeaBut

Have a huge arsenal of laundry products to choose from, and have only just recently opened the second box in the case of Persil in my stash.

Even then do not use Persil for my linens, or on some items of clothing. Have a nice stash of European commercial laundry detergent for that, and it does not contain Zeolites.

Now that one has discovered Ariel Excel gel, when this stash of Persil is done, that will be it, though it could take along time.

 

[launderess]

Persil Fan

If you ever read some of my posts back in my ThatHomeSite days, I stated clearly Persil really did not have that much over Tide HE. Only reason one has Persil now is due to nabbing a case of the stuff for less than the local cost of one box. Otherwise really wouldn't have bothered.

Tide HE when juiced with phosphates gives Persil a run for it's money. Heck Tide HE "Free and Clear" liquid can give Persil a run for it's money at times than Persil.

Have several bottles each of Perwoll and "Black Velvet" as well. Again only because one found the lot for less than the cost of one bottle locally.

 

[cleanteamofny]

Thanks for the STPP tip!

For the past few months I've been using Cascade/Dawn Action pacs and the cleaning was just OK. I made ribs and the glass Pyrex dish was somewhat burnt for leaving it in the oven too long so I've added 1-2 Tbs of STPP with the pac and the dish was cleaned except 2 little area and as for the aluminum pots, they finally shined as if I was using the old Cascade.

 

[lordkenmore]

Thanks for the zeolite info!

I've heard rumblings of discontent from time to time, and have long wondered what was wrong. But the only "enemy" that gets talked about loudly is phosphates.

 

[launderess]

False Alarm

Just came in from the aforementioned shop that had the "old" version of Cascade Complete powder a week or so ago. Peeped today and the stuff is gone, replaced by the horrid new version.

Store merely put out a case of the old formula they had sitting in stock, or that is what the manager on duty stated.

Anywho, as the product wasn't on sale, and at nearly $8.00 didn't purchase any, nor had the room to stock up if one wanted. My laundry product/detergent/soap stash is pretty much taking up all available space, including nooks and crannies! *LOL* Besides still have a bottle of the old Cascade Complete "Hydroclean with Bleach" gel am working through. As we don't run the machine daily, indeed sometimes not for several days, this may take awhile.

Since have plenty of STPP on hand, and will always continue to do so, will simply purchase the new stuff (if that is all one can find at that time), and sex it up a bit with phosphate powder. Am keen to try the new Cascade "Essentials" version in the white box anyway.

L.

 

[mr_sparkle]

Water Softners

I am surprised to read a couple of people comment that US machines do not have built in water softners?

All dishwashers in the UK have softners built in, and I thought this was the same with all dishwashers all over the globe, and a standard part of all machines.

How come US dishwashers do not have built in softners?

 

[logixx]

Oh yes, the German phosphate-free detergents did horrible. Most products failed all the way. Not only did they not clean dishes well, they also damaged them - more or less. Glasses became dull and/or covered with spots, stainless steel items (including the dishwasher) turned rainbow-colored in some cases. Even expensive brands like Ecover failed to wash away egg and starch residue.

There were three tabs that did a "good" job cleaning on the 2.5 hrs. 122°F cycle. The water hardness was regulated at 9 gpg.

The all-in-one type of tabs all failed to prevent lime scale residue. Water hardness was regulated at 21 gpg.

Only two tabs with phosphate could clean "good" both on the 122° as well as a 104°F cycle. Water hardness, again, was regulated at 21 gpg.

Anyone interested in reading the German test - send me an email.

Alex

 

[sudsmaster]

Alex,

I'd like to see that report if it's in English.

But I clicked on your name and don't see an option for sending you an email...

Rich

 

[launderess]

According To The Finish Website

Only the "Powerball" tablets (also sold under the Electrasol brand name), contain phosphates. The Quantum versions with and without powerball are phosphate free.

Sssssssoooooooo, as one missed out on the Cascade Complete, will start stocking up on Finish tabs. Now that New York State has moved to ban phosphates, have a feeling they won't be on the shelves long.

 

[supersuds]

The Finish website is probably out of date. In this area, the phosphated Finish Powerball tablets were among the first to be hoovered from the shelves; nothing but phosphate-free has been around (in any of the places I shop) for some time. Yet the Quantum versions can still be had with phosphates in places if you look around the back of the shelves. It's just a matter of local variations.

This is just as well with me, since the Powerball tabs gave a tendency to get rock hard. The Quantum seem to have a better shelf life as they have a powder loose inside the clear casing.

 

[sudsmaster]

All you folks in states with bans... I think you need to start writing your legislators and demanding that the phosphates be added back into consumer grade dishwasher detergents. You might mention the European fiasco.

 

[launderess]

Can Still Find Phosphate "PowerBall" Tabs

Around here, but as you say the bulk of the stuff are "Quantam" tablets.

Yes, well remember from the last time one purchased Electrasol tabs in bulk (store closeout) that the darn things turned hockey puck hard afterawhile. Towards the end of using up my dozen or so cartons of the stuff, had to get a mallet out to whack at the tabs so they would break up.

This is what has one second guessing hoarding up Finish tablets. It does not help much that P&G states their powders have a shelf life of one year. Though one is sure that could be extended abit with proper storage, really do not have the room to store a crate of dishwasher powder.

Think one is going to bite the bullet and buy a box of the new Cascade and see how things go. Do have tons of STPP on hand should the need arise, and can always order more.

 

[logixx]

No, the report is in German... I updated (deleted) the "hide my e-mail address" option.

 

[mark_wpduet]

My state has not instituted a ban of phosphates yet; everywhere I have been, I've checked (out of curiosity) and Finish, Cascade, store brand, and Value brand powders, tabs, gels, pacs all are phosphate free. I haven't been to Big Lots.

The Shelf life for Cascade institutional powder *in my case* is 3 years and counting. A box I had was stored in my laundry room that is only exposed to heat or a/c if I keep the laundry room door open, which often I don't. In the summer it can get HOT in there and COLD in the winter if I leave the door closed. I would NOT think those would be optimal conditions for an opened box of Cascade powder. I wasn't really storing it, it was a half used box I forgot ALL about and it works GREAT still.

 

[retropia]

I think the problem with storing dishwasher detergent is that it contains salts, which absorb moisture from the air, which causes it to clump together.

This used to be a problem, I recall, many years ago if I didn't use up a box of dishwasher detergent powder relatively quickly. It seems to be less of a problem now, so my guess is that at least Cascade is adding some sort of anti-clumping agent to its powder.

Mostly I've been hoarding the Action Pacs, but recently I've been adding vintage Cascade powder to the stash when I can find it. The boxes have a copyright of 2008, so they've been sitting on store shelves for awhile. To date, they all appear to be clump-free.

 

[launderess]

@ Sudsmaster

States didn't demand dishwasher products remove phosphates, reather it was the reaction of P&G and other makers of said products to what they saw coming down the pike.

According to the New York State bill (see link posted elsewhere on this forum), at the time the state banned phosphates for home laundry products, automatic dishwashers escaped such action because in part so few homes had them back then. However today automatic dishwashers aren't really a "luxury" or high end item, and most homes have them, this has driven up the use of detergents.

Like California, there are a few states with large enough consmer populations that when one acts, sooner or later it trickles down. Besides the original other sixteen states that have banned phosphates in dw detergent, NY has joined and NJ is close to having it's name added as well.

Years ago detergent makers would have said "fine", we will product products for different regions and that will be that. However the nature of the business has changed, with manufacturing now concentrated in several or just a few plants, who in turn pump out proudcts for the entire country, if not North America.

Time will tell if P&G has stopped producing phosphate versions of all domestic dishwasher detergents. If the supply of same dries up even in non-banned areas as excess supply is absorbed (ok, hoarded, *LOL*), and not replaced, there will be our answer.

Comparing Germany to the United States isn't fair. IIRC, one body controls what can and cannot go into products in the former, whereas the later has fifty sovereign states,free to make their own decisions in this matter.

Know we have gone toe to toe on this before, but methinks part of this push to get shot of phosphates is the federal government leaning on states and local areas to "clean up" their drinking water supplies and waterways. New York City narrowly escaped having to build new water treatment plants (at a cost of many millions), by agreeing to certain federal requests.

It is perfectly possible to filter out more phosphates than most local treatment plants do now, but that comes at a cost of building new or retro-fitting existing plants. Most state and local governments barely have funds for road infrastructure projects, so you can imagine the howls of protest about anything else.

 

[sudsmaster]

The 16 state ban went into effect around July 1 of 2010. The members of the American Detergent Manufacturers Association (or whatever they call themselves) voted en masse to remove phosphates from all their dw detergent products regardless of where they are being sold. This was a purely defensive move - it protected them from engaging in a formula battle between themselves in states where phosphates are not banned, like California.

But I'm hoping it will backfire on them big time.

 

[launderess]

Found This

Pipe:

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/coverstory/88/8804cover2.html

 

[lordkenmore]

Interesting article, Launderess!

What scared me about it was the talk of chemical companies doing their mad scientist act. While it's entirely possible they may find something that will be absolutely perfect, so perfect everyone hoarding Cascade with phosphates or STTP (naming no names to protect the guilty!) will toss the old detergent or STTP out.

It is also entirely possible that the new chemical will have its unique problems in time. Possibly so severe that they make environmentalists pine for the days of phosphates.

 

[mark_wpduet]

I thought the same thing. How do they know what kind of environmental impact this new chemical will have? They don't.

 

[retro-man]

i went looking in the supermarket the other day for something with phosphates in the dishwasher detergent. I asked one of the stock clerks about it and he said they were asked about 2 or 3 months ago to remove any products that had this. So none to be found here in nh either. I went to bj's yesterday and bought a box of cascade shine shield formula with dawn in it. Will give it a try and see how it works.

 

[iheartmaytag]

I scored

Two more packages of Orange sented Cascade W/Dawn 8.0% Phosphage last night at Dillon's. They were hidden behind the light green packages. They appeared to have had more, but I had to pay attention to my food budget. You can't have the means to wash your dirty plates and no food to put on them.
I did have a $1 off coupon.