Cold Water Wash

[warmsecondrinse]

An attempt to clarify, simplify and return to topic....

I think we all can agree that government & media frequently do not focus on the main culprits when it comes to inefficient use of finite resources. IMO, most of the "chaos and bickering" (which I agree happens)comes from members responding to a minor culprit being targetted while a more major one seems to be ignored. I don't take it as a reflection on the member's personality.

I agree that most people do NOT choose how many seats or how much cargo capacity their vehicles need. The point as I see it is that going from 5 to 7 person vehicle requires buying a MUCH larger vehicle than the 2 person increase actually warrants. The same applies to people who never go off-road and need AWD/4x4 ONLY for severe winter weather. They might be happy with an econobox but there isn't much to choose from.

I now return you to the thread topic....

Jim

 

[real1]

When I started plumbing they told us that to kill most germs with hot water and soap the water temp had to be 140F. Now many water heaters are set as low as 120F from the factory with the penalty of 'death' for adjusting higher. Well, kidding about the death part, but I think the Feds can fine us if we adjust over 130F.

I understand about babies/small children and the rapid burn factor of scalding tap water. But once your children are say 10, you ought to be able to raise your hot water temp legally. Which begs the question anyway; Since when did germs/bacteria get less resistant to hot water?

Kevin

 

[johnb300m]

Laundry tips

Here's something that'll rock your worldviews, who keep bleating that the gubmint is taking your hot water and the media is evil.

Their recommendation is to wash in the warmest water you're garments can handle.
And to not skimp on soap. (But of course don't use too much either)

Where it all falls apart is the comments section, lol.

The backlash against hot water, sorting colors, and using almost any soap, is comical and very telling, that it's all idiots out there and they need to be saved from themselves.

(Runs away)

http://https//www.washingtonpost.co...cb344221131_video.html?utm_term=.b938a49c3a1a

 

[joeypete]

Good points John! Granted I don't think the gov't should tell us how to wash our clothes but we as Americans are very spoiled when it comes to stuff like this. If you look in Europe where they have cold water fill ONLY machines that will heat the water so you're only using hot water when needed....our system seems very outdated and wasteful.

I had my hot water heater on 130 degrees. I literally would burn my hand if I used straight hot water...I lowered it to 125 and I dare say it's still too hot. I can't even imagine what 140 degrees would feel like, a temp that a lot of users on here insist upon. That's TOO hot, sorry. My Hobart KA states in the manual that you can lower the temp on your water heater because the machine itself will heat the water to 140 degrees (or 165 on Sani Rinse), for you, saving you from spending money on hot water you won't use. My machine is 32 years old so the idea of energy savings isn't new, by a long shot.

The article you posted makes good points about washing clothes appropriately and sorting. This is something I'm fanatical about (and probably why I spend an entire day doing laundry), but it works and my clothes are very clean.

The other issue is that a lot of people use cold water only and they NEVER clean their machine. That is just disgusting. I can't say much though because I can honesty say as a kid, we never cleaned our machine either. We never had a machine with a FS dispenser so it might have looked a little better. I've seen so many with the dispenser and I can't imagine how I would even wash my clothes in it! I'm very meticulous with that now. I dare say you could eat out of my machine now :-D

 

[real1]

That's what most dishwashers do, preheat the water for use, although there are some that take off directly from your WH. Most people with those dishwashers are unhappy because all the food residue is often not removed at lower WH temps. The germs are most likely killed in the drying process, however. The only solution there is to raise the temp in your WH, which is wasteful. Could be same as in Europe where the washing machine heats the water before use. Will add to the cost however of the washers here and people in the US step over dollars to pick up pennies.

There are published chart scales on babies/small children and how long they can endure hot water and at what temp before serious burns occur. It's not voodoo or an unknown mystery. I've been raising my grandson since he was five months old (now three) and the WH is set @125F. We get by fine. He's had his hands directly under the hot water and then pulled away without burns....that's what you want with small children.

I've never seen a US washing machine of any age that preheats the water and I don't ever remember being offered that feature in the past. Interesting....

Kevin

 

[joeypete]

Yup Americans are cheap no doubt lol. But so incredibly wasteful in other ways.

at 125 degrees I can use only hot water and wash my coffee pot without having to keep pulling my hand away. Before in the shower, the water was so hot, I had the lever on past warm into the cold setting...and with my condo, that means like no water pressure. That's just stupid.

It's really only been the last decade or so that FL washers with heaters have become more popular. But even then makes you wonder how many people actually use those settings.

 

[real1]

I think it's fantastic that washing machines would heat their own water...I'd be all over that if I ever find one. My hands are so leathered from work that I can stand unusually hot water temps directly on them. However, it's not about me, but about my 3yr old.

Demand WH's were all the rage but after installing dozens of them, including high-priced Bosch units, they have some issues. They have what is similar to a reed valve inside and if the demand heater is not used all the time, that valve will start to calcify. They have kits (wonder why) that replace the valve/seals, but there really is no practical way to ready a unit for vacation status.

I had one where I replaced the valve/seals after a long vacation and I never could restore the hot water fully to the unit. No Bosch tech could offer a solution either.

Needless to say, I'm not super high on those demand units (gas) and I think the electric ones are very energy inefficient. Takes a lot of amp draw to heat water with one of those electric demand units. And on any of them, a lot of water (wasted) has to pass through the fixture before you feel the hot water. Since it's a demand unit, there's no way to recirculate water to get instant hot water.

Kevin

 

[iheartmaytag]

I know the Hot/Warm/Cold debate

Has gone on several times, and I am agreement. I have a few loads that are washed in cold due to shrinkage issues, I do like Tide Coldwater for these loads. Other than that it's Hot or Warm when I wash.

Somewhere in the achieves someone brought up the Japanese. They are 1) very clean people. 2) Very sensitive to smells, and 3) Wash almost exclusively in cold water.

What detergents do they use? I know that our Dear Laundress has said we need Time, temperature, and chemical action to properly clean. Where is the balance reached?

 

[gusherb]

I think like most anything, there's a time and a place for cold cycles. I wouldn't dare wash sheets or towels on cold. But I've been washing my clothes on cold with Tide CW for the last 3.5 months with great results. Tried that once with regular Tide and it went over terribly. 

 

Our summer/early fall water temp is between 60-75 degrees, Tide CW is supposed to be effective down to 40 but I'm not sure I'm willing to go that low. I imagine alot of effectiveness is lost below 60. 

 

I believe in being energy efficient, but I strongly believe that in this country, as a whole, we are looking at all the wrong places to conserve. 

 

[brisnat81]

Over here legally the minimum temp your hot water heater can be set to is 140deg, its not possible with a standard heater to lower the thermostat below that point. This is to prevent Legionella.

It is then mandatory to have a Tempering valve installed that tempers water to the Bathrooms at a minimum to 120Deg or Less. Generally the valve is just mounted to the tank and the whole house is tempered to 120, but if you design the plumbing right during the build stage, you can keep water at 140 in the Laundry and kitchen.

We have Solar hot water so our tank temp maxes out at 170 from October to March. In that instance the tempering valve is crucial.

Of course with 240v its quick and easy to heat water from Cold to 140 inside the machine and your tank temp no longer really matters.

 

[agiflow2]

johnb300b,.. Don't even begin to get political.... don't go there.

 

[gusherb]

In a situation where I was starting from scratch with the plumbing I would do a tempering valve for the bathrooms and run full temp water to the kitchen and laundry. If one wanted to be even more granular about it one could put a tempering valve on the kitchen faucet and let untempered hot water into the dishwasher.

 

[real1]

These are concepts you can't sell most customers on in the States. Instant hot water to all fixtures, yes. Dishwasher supply is pulled from your hot water supply under the sink, usually. So it would be easy to put a tempering valve on the faucet only. Under-the-sink insta-hot devices are still very popular with their own dedicated spigot.

But your WH in either gas or electric is still cooking all the time @145F as it recycles. Make more sense for the appliance manufacturers to have a preheat setting to conserve energy allowing you to turn down your WH to 125F for bathing and hand washing.

Kevin

 

[mattl]

I keep my water heater as high as it will go, water is 155 degrees often.  It's a bit cooler when I have not ran the water for a while.  But when I wash dishes they flash dry, and if I choose to take a long shower the hot water lasts a LOT longer as I need less of it.  Either I have an efficient gas water heater of my gas rate are low, but my summer gas bill with gas dryer, gas cook top , gas grill, gas water heater is $20 ish.

 

Both my Duets will temper the water, but I have modified the thermistor to allow a bit hotter water.  So my Hot and Warm washes are closer to what they used to be with straight hot water.  I can't recall the last time I used cold wash, and often I use the Warm/Warm setting on my Duets and get a warm rinse.  I cannot comprehend washing in cold water, it make me cringe thinking of all the crud that is left on the clothes and towels.

 

[thomasortega]

I just know I love the scalding hot water at Kevin's house.

I'll have to find a way to discover the temperature his heater is set to. Maybe a little hotter would turn the faucets into spresso makers.... YAY.

Now I just dream about a NON HE showerhead. I always bathe but I use the shower to rinse and I'm tired of showering with a waterpik (not only the brand, my showerhead is ridiculously skimpy and i feel like rinsing my body using an oral irrigator).

Why is it so difficult to have a showerhead that sprays almost like the Bellagio fountain? I don't know you, but i like to shower with water... buckets of water on every drop.

 

[tolivac]

Just bore out your showerhead with a drill press-did this-MUCH better-you can get a fire hose shower!If the head has inserts-try removing them to increase flow.

 

[frigilux]

Part of the problem with the debate about cold water washing is one's location. If I lived in the deep south, where tap cold temps rarely dip below around 70-75 degrees, then I'd be more inclined to wash more loads in cold water. Glenn and a few others here have mentioned their cold tap temp in the summer can be 85-90 degrees. That's the temp used by CR for detergent tests.

But washing in tap-cold water year-round in Minnesota? That's a different kettle of fish. Temps are well below 50 degrees for months at a time. My experience with Tide ColdWater was that it cleaned pretty well with a minimum temp of 65-70 degrees. The drop in cleaning performance was steep at colder temps, despite Tide's website claiming it cleans in temps down in the 40s. I did not find that to be true at all.

I was excited to have 140-145 degree water entering the Speed Queen top-loader when I moved at the end of July. Unfortunately, reality set in when I realized Persil ProClean 2 in 1 actually cleaned better in warm (which is 110 degrees in my case). Super-hot water kills the enzyme cocktail and decreases detergent efficacy.

This is another reason I loved having a 'profile' wash with the Frigidaire and Maytag front-loaders' Sanitize cycles. Water is warm at the beginning of the wash and the temp gradually increases to 140-150 degrees. The detergent is in its sweet spot for at least a half-hour before the temp rises enough to negate the enzymes.

 

[ozzie908]

Water heaters are less common here now

Since most houses have gas combi boilers that heat hot water as you use it thus saving on having a tank of hot water sitting waiting to be used. Admittedly 99% of UK washing machines are cold fill only due to using so little water it would not purge the pipes before hand so would never reach the machine so no reason to have hot and cold fill, although there are people who have solar panels for hot water and Ebac have brought out a machine with hot and cold fill for that very reason but whether they purge the pipes I don't know so you could have a machine that takes in what is meant to be hot and when it reaches the valves it is too late the machine will heat it up to the correct temp anyway, a problem thats becoming more of an issue is people using low temp all the time and then complaining about smells and mildew but its the same old adage " you can't argue with stupid "

 

[appnut]

I still don't/won't wash in cold even during th3e summer.  My plumbing snakes through the foundation and cools off quickly as it traverses through the system. 

 

[real1]

Good point about the temp of cold water coming out of the tap. Tap water temps would be substantially high in moderate climates, then northern climates. In a lot of small towns, your water comes from well(s), so it's fairly stable yr around but going through the water system to get to your house changes significantly in the summer versus winter.

Some people can get away with very hot temps from a gas WH, because of the cost factor of natural gas. Propane has a higher BTU content, but it's much more expensive than natural gas.

As often the case, modern detergents are a chemical cocktail tailored to be used with warm water for maximum efficiency. Eugene makes a good argument about breaking down the detergent enzymes in hot water.

Kevin