Coppertone LK set
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The machine sounds like yet another '72 set, or a '74. It has a triple dispenser on the right front, and a console door that turns on the console light.
Apparently I was the 7th person to call since 2pm Indiana time today!!
Apparently I was the 7th person to call since 2pm Indiana time today!!
chaskelljr2
Well-known member
1970's Coppertone Lady Kenmore Set......
Well...... looks like he didn't describe the agitator at all. Because if the Washer in question has a Vari-Flex Agitator, then it's a 1972-73. If it also has a curved metal handle on the lid, then it's a 1969-71.
Otherwise, if it has a Large Capacity Tub and a Penta-Swirl Agitator (as well as the timer markings embeded into the console itself), then it is a 1974-75 set.
All things being equal.....
But then again, you did say the Washer has a "Triple Dispenser", so like you said, that would make it a 1972-73 set at least.
--Charles--
Well...... looks like he didn't describe the agitator at all. Because if the Washer in question has a Vari-Flex Agitator, then it's a 1972-73. If it also has a curved metal handle on the lid, then it's a 1969-71.
Otherwise, if it has a Large Capacity Tub and a Penta-Swirl Agitator (as well as the timer markings embeded into the console itself), then it is a 1974-75 set.
All things being equal.....
But then again, you did say the Washer has a "Triple Dispenser", so like you said, that would make it a 1972-73 set at least.
--Charles--
Well! Who got 'em?
I got them Kenny
These turned out to be a '72 set. Since I already have a '72 coppertone washer, I am not sure which one I'll keep, but the guy (who seems really nice) says they're in almost pristine shape. I'm thinking I'll keep the dryer and trade off the washer OR I'll get rid of the washer I have. Not sure yet and I guess I'll know when they arrive. They ought to be here in a few weeks.
G
These turned out to be a '72 set. Since I already have a '72 coppertone washer, I am not sure which one I'll keep, but the guy (who seems really nice) says they're in almost pristine shape. I'm thinking I'll keep the dryer and trade off the washer OR I'll get rid of the washer I have. Not sure yet and I guess I'll know when they arrive. They ought to be here in a few weeks.
G
Question...
Is the 72' model a large capacity or standard? If it's standard I may need some parts for mine. My 1970 works just fine but really needs a tune-up when it comes to the suspension rods, wig-wag, etc.
Would the only thing that's not really interchangeable be the transmission due to the length of the drive post?
Thanks for any info!
Jon
Is the 72' model a large capacity or standard? If it's standard I may need some parts for mine. My 1970 works just fine but really needs a tune-up when it comes to the suspension rods, wig-wag, etc.
Would the only thing that's not really interchangeable be the transmission due to the length of the drive post?
Thanks for any info!
Jon
Sounds great, Gordon. They will be at a good home!
Jon -
The '72 model is standard capacity, but was the last as such. The next issue was the '74 LK, which was large capacity (Penta Swirl).
Regarding the two capacities, these years actually shared the same transmission. This continued that way through the end of belt-drive production. The gearcase that is not interchangeable due to the length of the agitator shaft was used in 1973 and older large capacity machines. When the Penta-Vane and Penta-Swirl agitators debuted, they all shared the same length agitator shaft (and entire transmission) with the standard machines.
What's wrong with the suspension rods Jon? Are they noisy? I am fairly sure the rods and the rubber balls are NLA. You may be able to clean them and the gusset sockets and improve the situation. Based on your video, your machine sounds pretty decent. Your machine isn't noisy in the centerpost, and the bearings seem quiet in spin, so you have that much going for you!
Gordon
The '72 model is standard capacity, but was the last as such. The next issue was the '74 LK, which was large capacity (Penta Swirl).
Regarding the two capacities, these years actually shared the same transmission. This continued that way through the end of belt-drive production. The gearcase that is not interchangeable due to the length of the agitator shaft was used in 1973 and older large capacity machines. When the Penta-Vane and Penta-Swirl agitators debuted, they all shared the same length agitator shaft (and entire transmission) with the standard machines.
What's wrong with the suspension rods Jon? Are they noisy? I am fairly sure the rods and the rubber balls are NLA. You may be able to clean them and the gusset sockets and improve the situation. Based on your video, your machine sounds pretty decent. Your machine isn't noisy in the centerpost, and the bearings seem quiet in spin, so you have that much going for you!
Gordon
Gordon,
Yes they are just really noisy. Lots of squeaking! The other thing I'm wondering about is the loud "clunk" when spinning starts. Maybe that's normal for that era of Kenmore?
Jon
Yes they are just really noisy. Lots of squeaking! The other thing I'm wondering about is the loud "clunk" when spinning starts. Maybe that's normal for that era of Kenmore?
Jon
Jon,
I noticed the loud clunk in your video, so I'm guessing it's even more pronounced when the machine is spinning at normal speed?
I have heard that in a number of belt-drive WPs, from the 60s to the mid-80s. There is probably wear on the clutch pads, and the moving parts of the basket drive have lost some of their lubrication, so they make more noise. In your machine there should be an adjustment nut on the support post that the cam bar side of the yoke rides on. If so, you can lower that nut a little bit and lessen the travel that the drive parts make, which should soften the noise and account for the wear of the pads. This nut can be adjusted with a wrench without removing any parts. Later machines are not adjustable.
If you find that this doesn't work, I would not tear into the machine unless you have another reason. I believe you can rivet-on new pads, or get a new clutch pad disk with pads on, and certainly a whole new basket drive (one with the 38-degree pulley for your skinny belt may not be easy to find). Note that when or if you change the basket drive to a new part, it will be of the fast-brake design so you'll see some performance changes in the machine (that is unless you find a NOS pre-1971 part).
I have a couple exploded parts diagrams of basket drives, so if you need help with part numbers, etc. just let me know and I'd be glad to help.
Gordon
I noticed the loud clunk in your video, so I'm guessing it's even more pronounced when the machine is spinning at normal speed?
I have heard that in a number of belt-drive WPs, from the 60s to the mid-80s. There is probably wear on the clutch pads, and the moving parts of the basket drive have lost some of their lubrication, so they make more noise. In your machine there should be an adjustment nut on the support post that the cam bar side of the yoke rides on. If so, you can lower that nut a little bit and lessen the travel that the drive parts make, which should soften the noise and account for the wear of the pads. This nut can be adjusted with a wrench without removing any parts. Later machines are not adjustable.
If you find that this doesn't work, I would not tear into the machine unless you have another reason. I believe you can rivet-on new pads, or get a new clutch pad disk with pads on, and certainly a whole new basket drive (one with the 38-degree pulley for your skinny belt may not be easy to find). Note that when or if you change the basket drive to a new part, it will be of the fast-brake design so you'll see some performance changes in the machine (that is unless you find a NOS pre-1971 part).
I have a couple exploded parts diagrams of basket drives, so if you need help with part numbers, etc. just let me know and I'd be glad to help.
Gordon
BANG at Spin
Hello,
Something to try, one time when I rebuild my whirlpool i didn't tighten the bolt that holds the wig-wag in place enough and when the machine went into spin the spin cam bar would fly into the motor making that exact same sound. Go down and manually get the machine into spin by holding up the cam bars twist the pully and see what happens when it goes to spin, that noise might be a simple fix like mine was, just tighten that little bolt that holds both cam bars.
Nice machine, I have the same one in avacado!
S
Hello,
Something to try, one time when I rebuild my whirlpool i didn't tighten the bolt that holds the wig-wag in place enough and when the machine went into spin the spin cam bar would fly into the motor making that exact same sound. Go down and manually get the machine into spin by holding up the cam bars twist the pully and see what happens when it goes to spin, that noise might be a simple fix like mine was, just tighten that little bolt that holds both cam bars.
Nice machine, I have the same one in avacado!
S
Thanks guys
What both of you described is pretty much what I was thinking as well. Granted I have never really torn into a Kenmore before other than to replace a pump a few times on my portable model. I figure it must be worn pads. It's a pretty loud bang on delicate and slightly louder on normal.
Gordon, you mention a difference of mechanics between "hard-brake" design from earlier models. Growing up we had a 1980 Kenmore. I remember that machine stopping a bit faster as well as there not being as much play with the basket. The basket does not index but it doesn't lock as tight. Notice in my video of the Perm Press cycle the basket moves a bit when agitating with less water. I assume that's normal but I've never had a Kenmore of the older design before.
My other noise question is...would it be ok slighty lubricate the ball joints and sockets to eliminate squeaky suspension? Or should I just clean as best as possible and let it be a little noisy?
(By the way, we're at the beach right now so not sure when I'll get to do any of this.)
Jon
What both of you described is pretty much what I was thinking as well. Granted I have never really torn into a Kenmore before other than to replace a pump a few times on my portable model. I figure it must be worn pads. It's a pretty loud bang on delicate and slightly louder on normal.
Gordon, you mention a difference of mechanics between "hard-brake" design from earlier models. Growing up we had a 1980 Kenmore. I remember that machine stopping a bit faster as well as there not being as much play with the basket. The basket does not index but it doesn't lock as tight. Notice in my video of the Perm Press cycle the basket moves a bit when agitating with less water. I assume that's normal but I've never had a Kenmore of the older design before.
My other noise question is...would it be ok slighty lubricate the ball joints and sockets to eliminate squeaky suspension? Or should I just clean as best as possible and let it be a little noisy?
(By the way, we're at the beach right now so not sure when I'll get to do any of this.)
Jon
Jon -
I have wondered the same thing about lubricating those parts. I can't bring myself to type all the words out, LOL.... My thoughts come immediately to the scope of that project - you'll have to disassemble the machine in it's entirety, all the way down to a completely empty cabinet in order to get the necessary access. I have only done that twice, once early on just to know what was there, and once when I replaced a baseplate. It's an involved job, and this was done on machines that had unrusted bolts, etc. It's a big time investment so before you start, make sure the bolts in the baseplate and in the gussets on the cabinet top are clean and can be easily loosened.
One thing I want to suggest - take the snubber pad out of the machine, or at least pull up on the spring so it is not contacting the tub-ring. Do you still get rubbery sounds? Snubber pads are PRONE to making this rubbery sounding, highly (at least to me) annoying racket. Once the snubber is not touching the tub ring, push the agitator or tub ring around and see if you still hear that sound. Chances are decent that you won't but if you do you'll know the sound is coming from the rubber suspension balls.
When I was a kid our '74 machine made these rubbery sounds that I would have sworn were thick rubber hoses rubbing together. When I noticed that cleaning the snubber pad and plate lessened the noise I was surprised.
What Steven is suggesting is a good idea too, however I don't have a feel for how likely this would be if the machine hasn't been serviced in that area. You'll be able to see it easily though with the service panel off. There may even be deformation in the motor protector atop the motor. I recently changed the wig-wag in my mother's 1983 machine, which has been in service for 26 years. Nothing was or is loose in that area, but I can hear a similar clunking of parts coming together too fast when it goes into spin. I think it's just well-used parts Jon.
Your machine is a two-speed machine, right? If it has a square motor, it's less likely that the spin cam bar would be contacting the motor than it would the larger, round 2 and 3-speed motors.
Give the snubber idea a try! The sound they make can be eliminated for a while by replacing the pad, and longer-term by roughing-up the old pad by rubbing it on concrete or a brick to scuff it up and get rid of any glazing.
Enjoy the beach!
Gordon
I have wondered the same thing about lubricating those parts. I can't bring myself to type all the words out, LOL.... My thoughts come immediately to the scope of that project - you'll have to disassemble the machine in it's entirety, all the way down to a completely empty cabinet in order to get the necessary access. I have only done that twice, once early on just to know what was there, and once when I replaced a baseplate. It's an involved job, and this was done on machines that had unrusted bolts, etc. It's a big time investment so before you start, make sure the bolts in the baseplate and in the gussets on the cabinet top are clean and can be easily loosened.
One thing I want to suggest - take the snubber pad out of the machine, or at least pull up on the spring so it is not contacting the tub-ring. Do you still get rubbery sounds? Snubber pads are PRONE to making this rubbery sounding, highly (at least to me) annoying racket. Once the snubber is not touching the tub ring, push the agitator or tub ring around and see if you still hear that sound. Chances are decent that you won't but if you do you'll know the sound is coming from the rubber suspension balls.
When I was a kid our '74 machine made these rubbery sounds that I would have sworn were thick rubber hoses rubbing together. When I noticed that cleaning the snubber pad and plate lessened the noise I was surprised.
What Steven is suggesting is a good idea too, however I don't have a feel for how likely this would be if the machine hasn't been serviced in that area. You'll be able to see it easily though with the service panel off. There may even be deformation in the motor protector atop the motor. I recently changed the wig-wag in my mother's 1983 machine, which has been in service for 26 years. Nothing was or is loose in that area, but I can hear a similar clunking of parts coming together too fast when it goes into spin. I think it's just well-used parts Jon.
Your machine is a two-speed machine, right? If it has a square motor, it's less likely that the spin cam bar would be contacting the motor than it would the larger, round 2 and 3-speed motors.
Give the snubber idea a try! The sound they make can be eliminated for a while by replacing the pad, and longer-term by roughing-up the old pad by rubbing it on concrete or a brick to scuff it up and get rid of any glazing.
Enjoy the beach!
Gordon
Gordon,
Got a look inside the Kenmore today to see what seems to be going on. As far as the loud clunk goes I think you're absolutely right as far as distance traveled from worn out parts. The wigwag and cam bars are fine. Still lubricated and seem to shift easily and smoothly. It seems to me that distance between the yoke and the compression springs (I don't know a lot about this by the way)is more than it should be. Unfortunately it also appears that there is no nut to adjust either unless I'm looking in the wrong place but I see nothing. The support rod going from the transmission to the yoke only has a spring and a pin, no nut. So that kinda sucks. I can handle a clunk though.
I'm going to keep my eye open for a parts donor though. The baseplate is pretty nasty and rusty. I haven't seen any leaks from the tub anywhere but the rust makes me wonder. I think it just sat in a nasty place for a long time. The creeking noise of the suspension is from all the rust on the baseplate around the suspension ball joints. I suppose about the best I could do for now is a little WD40 to hault any new rust and lubricate a little.
What would you do Gordon?
Thanks!
Jon
Got a look inside the Kenmore today to see what seems to be going on. As far as the loud clunk goes I think you're absolutely right as far as distance traveled from worn out parts. The wigwag and cam bars are fine. Still lubricated and seem to shift easily and smoothly. It seems to me that distance between the yoke and the compression springs (I don't know a lot about this by the way)is more than it should be. Unfortunately it also appears that there is no nut to adjust either unless I'm looking in the wrong place but I see nothing. The support rod going from the transmission to the yoke only has a spring and a pin, no nut. So that kinda sucks. I can handle a clunk though.
I'm going to keep my eye open for a parts donor though. The baseplate is pretty nasty and rusty. I haven't seen any leaks from the tub anywhere but the rust makes me wonder. I think it just sat in a nasty place for a long time. The creeking noise of the suspension is from all the rust on the baseplate around the suspension ball joints. I suppose about the best I could do for now is a little WD40 to hault any new rust and lubricate a little.
What would you do Gordon?
Thanks!
Jon
Jon,
I would live with the noise the basket drive is making, however if you decide to remove the baseplate at some point, you can deal with that at the same time (you'll have the parts apart anyway).
As to the rusty baseplate - they tend to get surface rust on them anyway if they're in moist environments. Your machine being 39 years old, it's certainly had the time for it. A lot of excess rust can be contributed by those detergent dispensers. As cool as they are for us washer boys, I sometimes question their value due to the rust and corrosion they cause in washer tops, tubs, baseplates and cabinets, especially the triple dispensers. Rust can also be contributed to by leaky bleach hoses, so if you see a lot in the left front corner, there's a good chance that at some point this hose was a gusher.
If you haven't taken your snubber completely off the machine yet, just for grins, do that and listen for what's left when you shift the agitator around. The vast majority of the noise in many of these machines comes from that snubber. If there is noise from the baseplate and suspension rods, WD-40 sounds as good of an idea as any, so it's worth a whirl!
Good luck Jon! Let me know if I can help.
Gordon
I would live with the noise the basket drive is making, however if you decide to remove the baseplate at some point, you can deal with that at the same time (you'll have the parts apart anyway).
As to the rusty baseplate - they tend to get surface rust on them anyway if they're in moist environments. Your machine being 39 years old, it's certainly had the time for it. A lot of excess rust can be contributed by those detergent dispensers. As cool as they are for us washer boys, I sometimes question their value due to the rust and corrosion they cause in washer tops, tubs, baseplates and cabinets, especially the triple dispensers. Rust can also be contributed to by leaky bleach hoses, so if you see a lot in the left front corner, there's a good chance that at some point this hose was a gusher.
If you haven't taken your snubber completely off the machine yet, just for grins, do that and listen for what's left when you shift the agitator around. The vast majority of the noise in many of these machines comes from that snubber. If there is noise from the baseplate and suspension rods, WD-40 sounds as good of an idea as any, so it's worth a whirl!
Good luck Jon! Let me know if I can help.
Gordon
Gordon,
You are more help than you possibly know! I really appreciate your knowledge.
By the way I definitely did look at the front left corner as there was significant rust and gunk inside and out of the outer cabinet. I can't say that the hose was the problem though. I took all that stuff out and cleaned the dispenser really well, also sorta broke it in the process so I'll have to find a new one one of these days but it still works fine for now. Basically it looks like someone wasn't diluting and rinsing the softener side too well so it gunked up into a pile. Of course, site unseen, kept putting more in and pretty soon bleach and softener are going anywhere but in the reservoir. Human error! Imagine that! Those are all cleaned and back together so no problems there. Solenoids buzz pretty loud though. Is that normal?
Otherwise it's going to clunk into its spins and will get a little shot of lubricant on the joints and should quiet down a lot. I will check the snubber again as well. I cleaned a lot around that and it quieted a bit so I think it should be ok there.
Thanks again Gordon! I'll try to get some pictures of under the cabinet for you.
Jon
You are more help than you possibly know! I really appreciate your knowledge.
By the way I definitely did look at the front left corner as there was significant rust and gunk inside and out of the outer cabinet. I can't say that the hose was the problem though. I took all that stuff out and cleaned the dispenser really well, also sorta broke it in the process so I'll have to find a new one one of these days but it still works fine for now. Basically it looks like someone wasn't diluting and rinsing the softener side too well so it gunked up into a pile. Of course, site unseen, kept putting more in and pretty soon bleach and softener are going anywhere but in the reservoir. Human error! Imagine that! Those are all cleaned and back together so no problems there. Solenoids buzz pretty loud though. Is that normal?
Otherwise it's going to clunk into its spins and will get a little shot of lubricant on the joints and should quiet down a lot. I will check the snubber again as well. I cleaned a lot around that and it quieted a bit so I think it should be ok there.
Thanks again Gordon! I'll try to get some pictures of under the cabinet for you.
Jon
Jon,
I'm glad to help! Other than a few months here and there when I use a 1993 DD, my laundry has been washed by belt-drive Kenmores for my whole life. That's why I have come to enjoy them so much. I had a lot of exposure to a bunch of different machines to work on in the 1990s, and more again now. I'm glad to be able to share what I know.
Bleach hoses, if they leak, do so where they meet the side of the tub, which is about an inch or two above the baseplate. Evidence of leaks there are often most easily visible when the tub is out of the machine.
The solenoids for the bleach and softener reservoirs are often noisy. If nothing else, they can make a loud pop, almost like gun fire. The may also buzz while energized, though I have not heard more than a hum. Wigwag solenoids make noise, and certainly the mixing valve solenoids do, so it would stand to reason that a dispenser would as well. I would not be concerned about it.
Snubbers, no matter how clean, can make a lot of noise. I know I've said that before, but it's true. I am using three machines right now, and each makes a varied snubber noise not exactly like any of the others. If there is any porcelain wear on your snubber surface, or any hard water deposits, I would wager that at least much of the noise you are worried about is coming from there. It's amazing what the snubber accomplishes for these machines, but its equally amazing how obnoxious they can be.
That's a shame about the adjustment nut not being there, maybe they came later than 1970, or were only for large capacity machines? I prefer them not to be there actually (they're a pain when they need adjustment) but in your case one would be nice. As long as the basket drive can grab a full tub and make it spin, it's working fine.
Have a good Sunday evening Jon.
Gordon
I'm glad to help! Other than a few months here and there when I use a 1993 DD, my laundry has been washed by belt-drive Kenmores for my whole life. That's why I have come to enjoy them so much. I had a lot of exposure to a bunch of different machines to work on in the 1990s, and more again now. I'm glad to be able to share what I know.
Bleach hoses, if they leak, do so where they meet the side of the tub, which is about an inch or two above the baseplate. Evidence of leaks there are often most easily visible when the tub is out of the machine.
The solenoids for the bleach and softener reservoirs are often noisy. If nothing else, they can make a loud pop, almost like gun fire. The may also buzz while energized, though I have not heard more than a hum. Wigwag solenoids make noise, and certainly the mixing valve solenoids do, so it would stand to reason that a dispenser would as well. I would not be concerned about it.
Snubbers, no matter how clean, can make a lot of noise. I know I've said that before, but it's true. I am using three machines right now, and each makes a varied snubber noise not exactly like any of the others. If there is any porcelain wear on your snubber surface, or any hard water deposits, I would wager that at least much of the noise you are worried about is coming from there. It's amazing what the snubber accomplishes for these machines, but its equally amazing how obnoxious they can be.
That's a shame about the adjustment nut not being there, maybe they came later than 1970, or were only for large capacity machines? I prefer them not to be there actually (they're a pain when they need adjustment) but in your case one would be nice. As long as the basket drive can grab a full tub and make it spin, it's working fine.
Have a good Sunday evening Jon.
Gordon
kenmoreman
Well-known member
Clunk when going into spin!
There should never be any clunk when the machine goes into spin. If there is it is because the cam bar spring is either bent or the nut that holds it to the tranny is loose. It is rare to have one bent so I would check to see if it is either loose or missing. Regards Roger F.
There should never be any clunk when the machine goes into spin. If there is it is because the cam bar spring is either bent or the nut that holds it to the tranny is loose. It is rare to have one bent so I would check to see if it is either loose or missing. Regards Roger F.
