Deep Action Agitator

[poundagitator]

Hi--new here --I have a question or two.
Does anyone know why the type of agitators that were made by Frigidaire and Philco (like the one on this web page called the the Rollermatic Deep Action Agitator) are not in production any longer?

My aunt and uncle had one/they had five kids!! It worked great.

Also, what is the best cleaning modern washing machine? Front or side loaders?

The site is great by the way!!

 

[SactoTeddyBear]

Re: Best Washers for Laundry Cleaning:

Hi! Poundagitator, welcome to the Appliance Club Site. I think that you actually meant to ask about if the Front-Load or Top-Load Washers were the best for Cleaning, am I correct?

As far as I'm concerned, I believe that it is whichever type of Washer that you have had before. It also depends on if your talking about Newer or Vintage Models.

I also believe that whichever type you feel more comfortable with using.

My self personally as far as the Vintage Washers are concerned, I would have to say that both are just as good. My theary on that is because the older Front-Load Washers used a lot more Water for Washing and Rinsing, than the newer Models use. The Vintage Top-Load Washers, when you had the Larger Capacity Models or if you didn't Wash real large Loads of Laundry or large items in the Top-Load Washers and used proper Additives, they Washed quite well.

I do however believe that the newer Top-Load Washers are far more superior in Washing, even though they use way more Water than the newer Front-Load Washers, I just can't always see much better Washing of my Laundry in the newer Front-Load Washers, with the use of the lower Water Levels, for the Wash and Rinses. If someone was to have one of the newer Front-Load Washers, that you are able to add more Water, without having the Controls detect the extra Water Level and attempt to Drain it back out, then they might be better Washing Machines.

Good Luck, with your selection, let us know which you end up getting, assuming that you are in the Market for replacing a Washer and possibly even a Dryer as well.

Peace and Happy, Clean Laundry Times, Steve
SactoTeddyBear...

 

[panthera]

front or top

First of all, welcome! I am fairly new here myself, and have been made to feel very welcome - as I am sure you will be, too.

Top or front is a very hotly debated question.

There are so many different types of top loader today, but let's just talk about the "classic" US type with an agitator in the middle.

Front loaders in the US right now seem to be locked in a mad race to see who can use the least water, never mind cleaning clothes, so let's talk about their European cousins.

FL take 4 to 5 times as long to wash, rinse and spin. Their slow heating of the water and long period of tumbling is exactly the washing pattern which oxygen bleaches and enzyme detergents (that is, modern detergents) need to clean their best. They also rinse several times and spin 3 times faster then the US top-loaders, eliminating most of the water and getting an awful lot of residual dirt and detergent out.

Their energy consumption is, despite the longer wash time, less than TLs because they use much less water and the drier clothes need 1/2 as long in the dryer - the real dollar eater.

This takes a good 30 minutes off their longer wash times, but they still take a very long time.
They use way less water to wash the same amount of clothes. This doesn't mean much to folks on the east coast, but in the west where water bills are often hundreds of dollars in the summer months, this could make the decision easy.

As I said though - they take much longer to wash. My LG needs over 1 1/2 hours to do a normal load.

Some people argue that FLs can wash more than a TL at one time. This is not true. They can wash bulky things like pillows and comforters (sleeping bags especially) which TL can't. But their real capacity is always set about 20% lower than their rated capacity by all independent testing institutes.

Top Loaders have a time advantage. They are easier to load and unload. Some have a gentle agitation which makes them suitable for real hand-washables, but most are too aggressive.

They usually do a much better job with cat and horse hair then FLs do, but they all do an incomparably worse job with sand than FLs do. In fact, if you have trouble with sand, you pretty much have to buy a FL.
If you have trouble with animal hair, forget FLs, get a TL with a good filter.

The truth of the matter is, TLs have never been popular anywhere except the US/Canada and to a lesser extent Australia. Everybody else in the world prefers modern FLs because energy and water cost so much outside of the US that the time question doesn't even matter.

I don't know why US manufacturers stopped making such wonderful machines as the Frigidaire pulsators. They had all the advantages of agitator based TLs but used much less water, were much easier on clothes, cleaned much better, spun out more water and were much sturdier and better built than anything US makers have on the market today.

Maybe that's the reason? The US manufacturers today aren't interested in anything but short term profit.

If I had to buy a new machine in the US right now, I would find a traditional Frigidaire (maybe not a rollermatic . If it had to be new, then I would buy an LG or Miele front loader. I don't like replacing things every three years.
Hope that helps a little. Other opinions?

 

[DADoES]

My Fisher & Paykel toploaders spin at 1010 RPM, and I believe the Kenmore Oasis does 1050. Which frontloaders spin at 3030 RPM? (I know there are some Euro models that get up to ~1800 RPM.)

 

[sudsmaster]

I think, on average, that US toploaders spin a maximum of about 600 rpm. So Kevin's statement of euro FL's spinning three times the rate of US toploaders would hold true, on average.

I think however that the US/Canada and Australia are not the only places where top loaders have been more popular than front loaders. My observation is that top loaders are more popular in Japan and in Mexico, and possibly in India as well.

Anyway, the pulsating Frigidaire washer was phased out when GM sold off its appliance division to White Consolidated Industries back around the late 1970's. Unfortunately only the name went, not the factories, which were shut down or perhaps converted to other purposes. I guess GM figured that the golden age of home appliances or "white goods" was over, and that from there on out it would be a race to see who could build the flimsiest machines the cheapest. In other words, washers became more commodities than mechanical marvels and industrial sculpture. Additionally I beleive the Frigidaire washer design was more expensive to manufacture than other, simpler designs. WCI slapped the Frigidaire name on prosaic traditional back and forth agitator washers, and aside from the script nothing was quite the same since. I assume that GM held onto the patents for the pulsator washer. I also assume that it was only the solid-tub models that had the best water efficiency - since they didn't lose wash water to the outer tub like perforated tub models do. And I guess solid tub models went out for their own reasons, which may have included more difficult service access and more expensive manufacturing cost (harder to create a water-tight rust-proof outer cabinet than a simple outer tub, perhaps).

 

[panthera]

Glenn, those are major exceptions...

You are right, of course. No front loader spins faster than 1800 (to my knowledge). Even spin-dryers top out at about 2800...
But current, standard, normal, can be bought anywhere in the US non-top-of-the-line-absolute-luxurious-top-loaders range from the low 300s to around 600 tops. I assumed the question pertained to normal machines purchased by typical consumers.
Since the Oasis is being phased out for quality problems beyond number, it is pointless to discuss its otherwise very fine qualities - which are many. If it had been built by Fisher & Paykel, no doubt they would have done it right. But we won't talk about Sear's source for this, um, er---innovative---product.
Fisher & Paykel are worth the - for what you are getting - only slightly higher price. *If* you can get them. If anybody knows a source in Northern Colorado (and I don't mean with 150$ shipping) I would love to hear it.

 

[panthera]

I meant agitator type

I limited my discussion to the traditional US agitator type of machine. I don't know anything about Mexico, but most Japanese machines use TLs which are only similar to their US version in where the lid is placed.
I have never seen an agitator washer in India, but my knowlege of this sub-continent is limited - it is truly a country where seeing one place does not mean you have seen all.
There are lots of TLs which wash with the same type of tumbling drum which FLs traditionally use - they have the advantage of being easy to load and empty which the conventional TLs have (and you can interupt their wash program without getting wet feet.)
Does anyone know of a TL which does better on sand than my own negative experiences? (I lived on the beach in California for a while, that is the source of my observations.)

 

[gyrafoam]

Ask anyone who owns one and they will tell you that the cleaning ability of the "rollermatics" is very good.

There were many reasons why the manufacturer switched to a perforated tub not the least being the need to significantly increase the capacity.By 1970 most of the competition had very large tubs available.

Without a major redesign of the suspension, this likely kept the maximum spin speed down also.However, by then there were a couple of other factors that weighed in on slower spin speeds. Many more American's now had clothes dryers, AND Permenant Press had arrived ( with its propensity to wrinkle if subjected to a fast spin).

Also the perforated tub allowed the machine to handle heavier than water soils, such as sand, that the operator used to have to wipe or vacuum out of the bottom of the solid tub.

The Frigidaire 1-18 Rollermatic is a great example of how well a perforated tub machine can turn out. These are just wonderful machines and can hold a monster load----I mean Bob would have to put every article of clothing in the house in just to make a load! The down side is it is highly water intensive.

Anyway, those of us who have both types of these machines have the ability to enjoy all the many features and fun characteristics of each.

My two-cents.

 

[Designgeek]

One other point: if you get a machine that's of a different type than the one you've been using for most of your life, assume it's going to take a month's worth of learning curve or more to figure out how to use it properly.

Reading the manual isn't sufficient. You'll need to experiment with different settings, different detergents, and different dosages of detergents. If you're getting a FL for the first time, start with *much* smaller doses of detergents than you are used to: what matters is the concentration of the detergent in the water, and with less water you need less detergent. Otherwise you end up with suds all over the place, or less dramatically, with clothes that have to be rinsed again and again and again to get all or most of the detergent out.

For the first month, assume you're just going to experiment, and not get mad if you don't get the results you're seeking. Take notes as you go along. After a while you'll figure out what works and what doesn't.

Same advice applies to all other appliances as well: take the time to get to know how it works and how to use it effectively. Patience in the short-run is rewarded with time-savings over the long run.

 

[panthera]

at least a month, steep learnin curve

Designgeek is right - you need to relearn everything with FLs.
I truly wish folks would take note: I love the "true" Frigidaires. I grew up with a Unimatic. But I also was responsible for the laundry rooms of several rental properties while at CSU. They all had Frigidaires. All the Unimatics ran like a dream - despite their ages. The rollermatics were just plain not as reliable. Anyone who wants to tell me that a rollermatic was as well built and stable as a Unimatic is welcome to try, but you're talkin' to a guy who dealt with both, ok?
Sheesh.
The mere fact that I can tell the difference between a multi- roller-, uni- and 1-18 should say something about my affections - if I didn't love these beauties, I would not be so critical of the rollermatic's shortcomings.
'Nough said.
This was a thread on what is better, FLs or TLs...

 

[agiflow]

Hi Panthera, i am curious as to where you heard that the Oasis is being phased out. According to several posters on THS, these washers have been great.

It seems there has been a majority of happy owners over the few who were not happy with them. Very interesting.

I myself prefer TL washers and as long as the few manufacturers who are left that are making them continue doing so, i will stick with what has worked very well for me.

FL washers are cool too, but the TL washer is like a good friend you have known all your life

 

[panthera]

Hi back, Pat,

I believe I read this in one of our fora here, actually. Certainly lots of folks have good things to say about them, but the posting mentioned quite a few problems. We shall see - perhaps I misread, perhaps they were only start-up problems - Kenmore has always insisted on higher quality than Whirlpool delivers under their own name (which is not hard).
If I had me druthers, I'd have our old Unimatic back. If one of the beautiful men who can take a rollermatic apart with their eyes closed lived next door to me, I'd take one of them, too - it would be a great reason to have them over and on their knees...
often. Those rollers need cleaning 'pretty near every other wash. (This was an exaggeration. Please do not flame me for this. I know very well that the nylon rollers - unless damaged - only needed cleaning every other year or so).
Since I live in Europe where TLs with agitators are virtually unknown (and my folks are in Colorado, where water costs so much you don't even want to know), I guess I am stuck with FLs.

 

[cvillewasherbo]

oasis

are you sure that the oasis is being phased out (haven't heard a peep about that) or are you confusing it with the calypso?

 

[DADoES]

Yeah, how can the Oasis be "phased out" when it has barely been "phased in?" And the Cabrio sibling hasn't debuted at all .. or has it?

F&P dealer search returns 72 listings in Colorado. Can't guarantee they're all valid, F&P tends to not keep the database updated. Lowe's handles F&P. There are no Lowe's stores in Colorado?

http://www.fisherpaykel.com/locator/dealer/index.cfm?country=us_ca

 

[brisnat81]

Your Original Post Keven

Hi Keven,

In your original post, you state that you are looking at your european cousins in regards to FL machines. You then talk about long heating times etc, which never have been an issue for 240V machines.

Most euro/AU FL machines can now complete a normal cycle in about an hour. The high end stuff like my miele does a normal 60degC wash in 48minutes. You say that a FL takes 3-4 times as long to wash comparted to a TL machine, but in most cases in Australia anyway, the hotwater pressure is about 1/3 of the cold water pressure. With my old Whirlpool, I had to allow almost 10 minutes for it to fill with hot. Once it was full the water was only lukewarm anyway. That coupled with an 18 minute superwash, is going to push the wash time out to about 40 mins. Which is how long a Cottons 40deg C takes in my Miele.

If you're talking about US frontloaders then I concur, anything with a heater seems to push over an hour to do the job.

Also, TL Agitator machines were purchased and used by 99% of the population up until the last 5 years in AU. FL machines were never commonplace, and it was very rare to find anyone who had one. Water conservation was done with a Suds Saver. The main issue people had with earlier FL machines, was that with the high water levels, it was impossible to just add a sock. Once you switched it on, that was it until it finished, thats no longer the case.

Your views on why designs have become more disposable are slightly simplistic. Its not just about making lots of money, its now about staying in business. The design that Fridgidare had in the late 70's was susceptible to damage from nails, pins etc, the 1-18 was heavy on water and parts like the clutch and bearings were prone to failure. Yes it probably could've been redesigned, but at what cost. Somewhere along the line, when WCI took over they had to decide if they want to stay solvent. IE Do we redesign a machine and make it last 20 years, when we already have a machine, that will last 5-10, and the chances are, that our american market is going to replace it in 5 years to get the newer prettier model. Why build something with a cost that has to be amortised over 20 years, when you could sell something to the consumer who see's it as being dispoable anyway, and they can amortize the cost over 3 years. I know this isnt how most people feel about their appliances on this site, but the average joe, just wants to keep getting the newest and prettiest.

I apologize if my post is hypercritical, I've just seen you consistantly express your opinions, and I felt that its now time for me to do the same.

Regards

Nathan

 

[peterh770]

Keep it vintage and classic, y'all. Talk of what is good in today's market belongs over in Super. Don't make me come after you...

I myself find frontloaders much better than tops, especially the Bendix/Philco iterations. But I would never say no to any GM Frigidaire machine. I'm easy that way...

 

[panthera]

close your eyes Peter

Thanks Nathan,
I will keep it brief. Yup, I do say what I think and feel - and am very happy to hear from others.
I probably did get the Calypso confused, will look tomorrow.
I have 230 V here in Germany, the heating times are really very long - we only use 10A heating for our washers for historical reasons, not 16 as we did prior to 1989 (GDR, aluminum wiring). So those long heating times are a genuine issue here. And I was discussing these both as a nuisance as well as a very clear advantage - enzymes and oxygen bleaches respond best to a longer rise in heat.
I would love to pursue the "simplistic" ideas, and will try to open a thread in that direction over in Super tomorrow.
I never cease to wonder how passionate we all can feel about these things.
Ok, Peter - you can open your eyes now. I'm out of this thread. If anyone wants to e-mail me, you have my address.

 

[mixfinder]

Soft Focus

I hear the words posted here, as an expression of the personal experiences, influences and regionality of where each of use live and were raised.
I am here and loving it, because I am odd, to rest of the world.
The least I can do is accept each individual point of view with respect, humor and tolerance.
There is no right or wrong in appliances. Like the whores they are, they exist to please.
Kelly

 

[lavamat_jon]

Heating times

Pantera - I have to agree with Nathan that heating times aren't an issue with European washers at all, as you stated. Yes, they do offer 2 hour cycles for the toughest of stains but I have to say that cycle times last around an hour on my Miele for a 60*C wash, which has to heat up from cold fill. Can heat up from cold to 60*C in about 10-15 minutes (you hear the element clunking off once it's heated) - it's quicker at heating in summer & slightly longer at heating in winter. Other frontloaders I've used here in the UK have similar heating times. The only time where heating times aer going to be long are during profile washes, where the temperature is held at several steps at several points in heating up to work the different components of detergents as you said, but this only occurs on the longer cycles (for example, if you select the Intensive wash on my Miele, or use the Stain option on my AEG).

Jon