Dishwasher Detergent Test - Phosphated vs Regular

[whirlcool]

The other night for dinner we made a Chinese Chicken recipe which called for Sesame seeds to be used on the chicken and in the sauce. When we were done we loaded all the dishes in our Maytag dishwasher, filled the detergent container with Cascade Complete powder, set the wash time to Normal, Boosted Heat for Wash and Sanitized Rinse and heated dry.

The next morning we noticed after the dishes were washed that everything seemed to have Sesame seeds stuck to it. Inside and outside of everything. Glasses had Sesame seeds inside and out. And they were dried on to the items too. You couldn't use a fingernail to pop the seeds off. So I figured we'd have to hand wash everything to fix this problem.

But then I thought how about rerunning the load only this time use an old Cascade Extra Action Gel Pack with Phosphates instead. So I put one of those in the machine and reran it using the same settings. The results? Not a Sesame Seed anywhere to be found on any item in the dishwasher. Plus the glasses have a nice silky smooth feel to them that you don't get from the newer detergents.

I suspected that while the newer detergents clean pretty good, they still are not up to where they used to be when they had factory installed phosphates in the mix.
BTW, this was the first time anything was ever left on dishes cleaned in our Maytag. No yibbles ever. But then again we don't usually use Sesame Seeds very often in our recipes either.

 

[norgeway]

The real problem is..

With new detergent in a old reverse rack or say a KDS15 Kitchen Aid..you really cant tell all that much difference..but put that weak detergent in one of these pitiful 2 hour cycle dishwashers..and you get not so great results.

 

[whirlcool]

Naw

It's not the dishwasher. We have had this Maytag since 2008 and this is the first time we have encountered this problem. If the problem was the dishwasher, the result with the phosphated Cascade would have been the same as with the non-phosphated Cascade. It was a totally different outcome.

 

[whirlcool]

Actually, now that I think about it, the older dishwashers used more pressure in the cleaning of dishes than the newer models, which use less water pressure but more time. So those pesky Sesame Seeds would more likely have been powered off by an older dishwasher and greater spray pressure.

 

[frigilux]

Thanks for sharing your findings, Allen. It makes me want to toss a handful of sesame seeds into the GE with a Member's Mark Ultimate Clean pac to see what happens. The one ding in their otherwise stellar score in Consumer Reports' tests was for resisting redeposit of particles on dishes.

 

[whirlcool]

Actually, only a One and a half teaspoons will do it. Don't rinse the dishes, just put them the dishwasher. We've run the dishwasher twice with the newer detergent since this test and can't find any more Sesame seeds at all.

I was amazed at the difference.

 

[gmmcnair]

I'm Glad (or rather, sorry) It's Not Just Me

I miss the old phosphate detergents. My old Kenmore (Frigidaire) and my current GE dishwasher never had yibble issues with phosphated detergents. If I don't scrape carefully, I do get them with the new formulas....especially in the top rack since I have only one wash arm, and a tower extending from that to clean the top rack.

 

[mich]

You know...

I was thinking about this earlier tonight. It's been almost, 5 years since the been hit us, and I'm still using the Phosphate Detergent, but, I was wondering if anyone else out there is too. 

 

I will admit, Cascade & Finish (Remember Electrasol?) have come a long way. But... I still wish the old formulas would magically pop back up on the shelf. I think little things, like the glasses, do look more polished, as well as silverware. 

 

Eh. I think it's sad, because, people my generation... probably, never will know, <span style="text-decoration: underline;">just how clean things could get</span>. It's a "rinse, rinse, rinse" world, and it'll always be that. 

 

Such a shame.

 

[polkanut]

I simply add 1 tsp of STPP to the detergent cup along with the detergent.  Result, problem solved!

 

[artcurus]

Cascade Fryer Boil Out is the same as Cascade Professional. Your ahem *fryer* works like it used too, and the dishes are spotless.

 

[DADoES]

 
Typical results from Cascade Institutional in my "toy" dishwasher. 

The dish is from baked chicken, and sat for 2 days before washing.  Incoming water temp less than 102°F, although the machine heated to 150°F+.

 

[sudsmaster]

Although I still have plenty of phosphated DW detergent left, I bought a tub of Finish the other week and have been using that instead in my Bosch.

 

The results have been surprisingly good. The dishes appear to come out just as clean as before, and I don't pre-rinse anything. Typically dishes will sit in the DW for 2-3 days before it gets run with a full load. The Bosch may be more suited to modern detergents since it uses a fairly long wash cycle.  I also have it set to the "Sanitize" high temp final rinse. One thing I've noticed is that, unlike with some older phosphated detergents, the Finish doesn't leave any off-odors in the DW. This is actually an improvement over the older formulations.

 

In time I'll be checking to see if there is any mineral build-up in the DW, but so far so good. The water here is reasonably soft (2 to 5 grains) so it may not be an issue. If it becomes evident I can always fall back on my stash of phosphated DW detergents, or just add some STPP to future loads.

 

I was using older Cascade + Dawn gel packs, which came with their own rinse agent. So I haven't filled the rinse agent reservoir in the Bosch for some time now. The Finish doesn't claim to come with any rinse agent, but so far I haven't seen the need for one.

 

[washer111]

My machine is "only" 7 years newer than Glenn's. Here are the results with phosphated Finish detergent, still available today (which, according to the MSDS has ">30% phosphates").

I was sure that my archive of loads was bigger, but here is something I've rehashed. Lasagne dishes plus a boatload of other stuff.

 

[whirlcool]

Despite our hoarding...

We are down to our last package of the original phosphated DW detergent. It's a plastic package of Cascade Extra Action pacs. After this it's only the new stuff for us. To tell you the truth I'm surprised we made it this far!

I know we could buy some STPP and add it ourself, but it seems the original stuff with it added at the factory always worked best.

 

[washer111]

I guess the only thing now is to either get detergent from across the pond (Another member queried me on this a while back. We decided that shipping might be too expensive) or:

- Bubble Bandit
- Cascade Fryer Boil Out
- TheChemistryStore STPP
- Ye wicked, cursed, damned, dangerous, hellacious... *PODS*

Not sure about the formulation of the BB.
Institutional Cascade always seemed to get very mixed reviews here; some saying it was a miracle detergent and others complaining about its uselessness in their machines. I'm inclined to think its dependent on cycle choice and temperature - use too cool a cycle doesn't get the bleaching action right into shape...

 

[mich]

I've still got another 3 (possibly 4) years or so...

Of Phosphate'd Detergent, on hand. Mostly have been using (P-Free) Cascade Complete in our Bosch, in a effort to <span style="text-decoration: line-through;">hoard</span> preserve my stash of detergent.

 

 

I was invited to a house party a few nights ago, and being myself... stayed long after to help with the cleaning up. Unfortunately, as I was loading there Dishwasher (a wonderful, Whirlpool Powerwash).. the racks, and, the heating element, were covered in the god awful white filmy crud. 

 

It took everything in me to hold myself back and not tell her what was the problem, and just how much damage all that lime buildup was doing. 

 

It's really sad though. I can't help but think to myself, just how much Damage, and just, problems these Phosphate Free Detergents have caused. 

 

Citrates & Carbonates were never intended or designed to be used as a replacement for Phosphates, and it certainly shows. They simply can't replace the job, or compare to what Phosphates did for water softening & scaling protection. 

 

In very, very hard water Conditions. (Like... in the house, I was recently invited to) The Phosphate free formulas are leaving scaling throughout the machine, and that scaling is greatly reducing the machines ability to properly wash dishes. Eventually spray jets become so clogged with <span style="text-decoration: underline;">lime scale</span>, that water is blocked from running through spray jets, greatly reducing the wash performance. <span style="font-size: 12pt;">And all of that lime, begins to fight with the Detergent in the wash </span>cycle, <span style="font-size: 12pt;">e</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">ffectively </span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">neutralizing </span><span style="font-size: 12pt;">the detergent.  </span>

 

 

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">I also can't help but think to myself.... just how many perfectly good dishwashers have been thrown out, and ended up in our Nations landfills. It's got to be in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. Think about the kind of toll that has taken on the environment. I don't think it could ever compare to the damage, supposedly caused in waterways by phosphates. </span>

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">_______________________________________________________________________________________________</span>

 

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">As for adding STPP, to Detergent. One has got to remember, that due to the Phosphate Replacements put into detergents, phosphates are not going to be as effective as before. Acidic Additives, like the citrates used in the newer detergents, greatly reduce the PH of all the ingredients. </span>

 

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">If I was going to add STPP, to any Detergent. I'd add them to Gel Detergents, as those generally have no citrates, and for the most part have remained unchanged after the ban. Add the missing ingredients, and you get wonderful results. </span>

 

<span style="font-size: 12pt;">Eh. </span>I'm going to stop ranting on now. I'm still furious about the ban. 

 

[this post was last edited: 3/15/2015-03:56]

 

[sudsmaster]

While citric acid is low pH, if I'm not mistaken, citrate or sodium citrate, is neutral and will not result in lower pH of a DW detergent. Plus, there is still PLENTY of sodium carbonate in modern DW detergents, and sodium carbonate is a stronger alkalinizer than STPP.

 

One worry about older phosphated DW detergents is that over time the STPP will decompose to TSP, which while a good surface cleaner is not much better at preventing soil redeposition than sodium carbonate, since it will also form a precipitate in hard water. This is also an issue with old stocks of STPP. The decomposition is accelerated by heat and moisture. Caked old stock is suspect, although test runs in a DW may be sufficient to determine if the STPP is still active.

 

 

 

[mich]

Citric Acid

Is practically glorified lemon juice. It has a PH of 2, and greatly reduces alkalinity of any chemical thrown against it. 

 

It's a reason why a lot of Laundry Sours contain the chemical. It neutralizes the PH and the alkalinity of other chemicals. In laundry, that allows some of the Alki's (strong stain removers) to be neutralized, so the laundry isn't so stiff after a wash cycle. 

 

It does soften water. But one has got to remember, it's an Acid. Acid's don't like Alikis. Hence what happens when you mix Baking Soda & Vinegar. 

 

 

 

[sudsmaster]

Basic chemistry:

 

Citric acid is acidic.

 

Sodium citrate is the sodium salt of citric acid. It is NOT acidic.

 

Similarly, hydrochloric acid, or HCl, is acidic.

 

The sodium salt of hydrochloric acid, or NaCl, is NOT acidic.

 

The citrate that is added to laundry and DW detergent mixes is sodium citrate, not citric acid. It has no effect on pH.

 

A laundry sour is another matter. It is added as part of the rinse cycle, and not as part of the detergent mix.

 

End of lesson.

 

 

[mich]

Say what you want...

But Products, containing, "Sodium Citrate" often, have Sodium Hydroxide & PH Adjusters, for a reason. 

 

Beyond that though. Reckitt Benckiser, the makers of Finish used to hold classes for dishwasher repair & service personal. And they specially said, Detergent Boosters (a la Sodium Citrate aka Lemishine) when used with Finish, did improve spotting & filming, but dramatically reduced Enzyme and Starch Removal Performance. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mich]

For what it's worth...

Here's a snippet from a Internal Case Study at RB. 7 Months, of daily usage of Phosphate-Free Finish Powerball, in 15GPG hard water. 
 
Cleanup is using, a descaler product, called "Finish Dishwasher Cleaner". But, look how much lime scale the Powerball tabs allowed to accumulate in the machine. 

 

[sudsmaster]

I will have to modify my statement.

 

Sodium citrate, while around neutral in pH, has the ability to buffer changes in pH. So it might make the pH of an alkaline solution a bit lower due to its buffering action. Still, I think the excess of sodium carbonate in most powdered laundry and dw detergent mixes would overwhelm the buffering capacity of the citrate.

 

Citric acid is classed as a weak organic acid, and obviously would have more of an effect on lowering pH. Again, I think most laundry/dw detergent mixes would include the citrate rather than the acid version.

 

More technically, sodium citrate is the conjugate base of a weak organic acid, citric acid. It can perform as a buffering agent or acidity regulator, resisting changes in pH. It also has some non-precipitating water softening potential, as it can create complex calcium citrate complexes in hard water which do not precipitate as readily as calcium carbonate. Therefore it is used as a replacement for STPP in phosphate free detergent mixtures, often in liquid detergents. I don't think it is as effective as STPP as a builder or water softener, but there you have it.

 

 

[jakeseacrest]

I know this an older post but something happened last night. I have been using Fryer Boil Out for a few months in my 1998/1999 Maytag Jetclean and have been loving the way my dishes and pots look. But yesterday I used a Cascade Platinum sample that I got in the mail a few months back just for comparison. I had a stainless pot that made pasta carbonara and a white baking dish that had baked a ham. The baking dish had been soaking for at least 14 hours and the carbonara pan was untouched before it went in the dishwasher. The baking dish needed to be touched up as it had a ring around the middle that I had to use a scrubby sponge on.


Last month I made the same ham with the same recipe, temp, pan, etc and didn't need to be touched up after using Boil Out. Hmmm

 

[mark_wpduet]

The fryer boil out has bleach, right?

I read something interesting I did not know about bleach and stainless steel. They do not mix from what I've read. And I have actually recently been using a little bleach with each cycle of my dishwasher and it looks fantastic inside. I had no idea bleach was bad for stainless steel.

 

[sudsmaster]

Um, bleach is ok for stainless as long as the exposure is relatively brief and it's thoroughly rinsed out afterward. The usual web ref on this is pinhole leaks on stainless kegs used to brew beer. This is from using chlorine bleach to disinfect them, and not rinsing out all the bleach. In storage the residual bleach evaporates leaving a more and more concentrated drop which in turn can corrode the stainless.

 

The actual mechanism of this is interesting. Stainless steel gets its corrosion resistance from added chromium. Upon exposure to air, the chromium forms a very thin layer of chromium oxide which in turn protects the iron in the steel from oxygen/rust. Chlorine however reacts with the chromium oxide, and can eat it away, leaving the iron in the steel vulnerable. Same goes for salt, which has chloride. For this same reason it's advised that when boiling water as for pasta, in a stainless pot, that one not add salt right away, but wait until the water is ready to boil. This avoids the salt crystals collecting in a concentrated brine at the bottom of the pot.

 

 

 

[DADoES]

 
I have compared my typical baked-on items with Cascade Institutional vs. Cascade Complete (both with phosphates), and I think WM GV with STPP added.  Don't see much difference but perhaps a slight edge to the Institutional on the long-term.

 

[ultralux88]

I know I’m dredging up an old thread, but...

I remember back when the phosphates went away, and Mom was left dissatisfied with the Cascade powder after, and eventually settled on Finish tabs. Ultimately, I’ve not been satisfied with how clean dishes come since, and the dishwasher just got absolutely manky inside with hard water crust and other forms of “dildew” in every corner. Last year I switched to using Bubble Bandit and everything changed. It actually cleaned the dishwasher out completely and the dishes haven’t been this clean in a decade. After I got Mom to use this stuff too, nearly 10 years of coffee stains just vanished from their coffee cups, the plastic insulated ones too, and they no longer smell of coffee. I have absolutely no interest in or intentions of going back to phosphate free crap. And don’t get me started on what wonders reintroducing STPP to the laundry has done..!

 

[tomturbomatic]

Makes sense. Glad for your good results.

 

[appnut]

Reggie, how many runs through the dishwasher did the coffee stains disappear?  I'm thinking about trying Bubble Bandit out.  

 

[ultralux88]

Only a couple times really. The plastic cups held on to the reside for maybe a month before it totally disappeared. Bubble Bandit has been great, but I’ve also just recently discovered Cascade fryer boil out and I can tell you that it really is the Cascade of an era prior, it doesn’t smell as strong, and there aren’t any green granules, but it works the same and I’d say it’s a tie with the Bubble Bandit for which works better. They’re both giving me excellent results. I’ve had some other people I know try the Cascade and they are as pleased with it as I’ve been. A good friend of mine actually bought a case and gave me a box, as well as to another friend. And we’ve been handing out small amounts to others as well.