Dishwasher Detergent Test - Phosphated vs Regular

[mich]

Say what you want...

But Products, containing, "Sodium Citrate" often, have Sodium Hydroxide & PH Adjusters, for a reason. 

 

Beyond that though. Reckitt Benckiser, the makers of Finish used to hold classes for dishwasher repair & service personal. And they specially said, Detergent Boosters (a la Sodium Citrate aka Lemishine) when used with Finish, did improve spotting & filming, but dramatically reduced Enzyme and Starch Removal Performance. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mich]

For what it's worth...

Here's a snippet from a Internal Case Study at RB. 7 Months, of daily usage of Phosphate-Free Finish Powerball, in 15GPG hard water. 
 
Cleanup is using, a descaler product, called "Finish Dishwasher Cleaner". But, look how much lime scale the Powerball tabs allowed to accumulate in the machine. 

 

[sudsmaster]

I will have to modify my statement.

 

Sodium citrate, while around neutral in pH, has the ability to buffer changes in pH. So it might make the pH of an alkaline solution a bit lower due to its buffering action. Still, I think the excess of sodium carbonate in most powdered laundry and dw detergent mixes would overwhelm the buffering capacity of the citrate.

 

Citric acid is classed as a weak organic acid, and obviously would have more of an effect on lowering pH. Again, I think most laundry/dw detergent mixes would include the citrate rather than the acid version.

 

More technically, sodium citrate is the conjugate base of a weak organic acid, citric acid. It can perform as a buffering agent or acidity regulator, resisting changes in pH. It also has some non-precipitating water softening potential, as it can create complex calcium citrate complexes in hard water which do not precipitate as readily as calcium carbonate. Therefore it is used as a replacement for STPP in phosphate free detergent mixtures, often in liquid detergents. I don't think it is as effective as STPP as a builder or water softener, but there you have it.

 

 

[jakeseacrest]

I know this an older post but something happened last night. I have been using Fryer Boil Out for a few months in my 1998/1999 Maytag Jetclean and have been loving the way my dishes and pots look. But yesterday I used a Cascade Platinum sample that I got in the mail a few months back just for comparison. I had a stainless pot that made pasta carbonara and a white baking dish that had baked a ham. The baking dish had been soaking for at least 14 hours and the carbonara pan was untouched before it went in the dishwasher. The baking dish needed to be touched up as it had a ring around the middle that I had to use a scrubby sponge on.


Last month I made the same ham with the same recipe, temp, pan, etc and didn't need to be touched up after using Boil Out. Hmmm

 

[mark_wpduet]

The fryer boil out has bleach, right?

I read something interesting I did not know about bleach and stainless steel. They do not mix from what I've read. And I have actually recently been using a little bleach with each cycle of my dishwasher and it looks fantastic inside. I had no idea bleach was bad for stainless steel.

 

[sudsmaster]

Um, bleach is ok for stainless as long as the exposure is relatively brief and it's thoroughly rinsed out afterward. The usual web ref on this is pinhole leaks on stainless kegs used to brew beer. This is from using chlorine bleach to disinfect them, and not rinsing out all the bleach. In storage the residual bleach evaporates leaving a more and more concentrated drop which in turn can corrode the stainless.

 

The actual mechanism of this is interesting. Stainless steel gets its corrosion resistance from added chromium. Upon exposure to air, the chromium forms a very thin layer of chromium oxide which in turn protects the iron in the steel from oxygen/rust. Chlorine however reacts with the chromium oxide, and can eat it away, leaving the iron in the steel vulnerable. Same goes for salt, which has chloride. For this same reason it's advised that when boiling water as for pasta, in a stainless pot, that one not add salt right away, but wait until the water is ready to boil. This avoids the salt crystals collecting in a concentrated brine at the bottom of the pot.

 

 

 

[DADoES]

 
I have compared my typical baked-on items with Cascade Institutional vs. Cascade Complete (both with phosphates), and I think WM GV with STPP added.  Don't see much difference but perhaps a slight edge to the Institutional on the long-term.

 

[ultralux88]

I know I’m dredging up an old thread, but...

I remember back when the phosphates went away, and Mom was left dissatisfied with the Cascade powder after, and eventually settled on Finish tabs. Ultimately, I’ve not been satisfied with how clean dishes come since, and the dishwasher just got absolutely manky inside with hard water crust and other forms of “dildew” in every corner. Last year I switched to using Bubble Bandit and everything changed. It actually cleaned the dishwasher out completely and the dishes haven’t been this clean in a decade. After I got Mom to use this stuff too, nearly 10 years of coffee stains just vanished from their coffee cups, the plastic insulated ones too, and they no longer smell of coffee. I have absolutely no interest in or intentions of going back to phosphate free crap. And don’t get me started on what wonders reintroducing STPP to the laundry has done..!

 

[tomturbomatic]

Makes sense. Glad for your good results.

 

[appnut]

Reggie, how many runs through the dishwasher did the coffee stains disappear?  I'm thinking about trying Bubble Bandit out.  

 

[ultralux88]

Only a couple times really. The plastic cups held on to the reside for maybe a month before it totally disappeared. Bubble Bandit has been great, but I’ve also just recently discovered Cascade fryer boil out and I can tell you that it really is the Cascade of an era prior, it doesn’t smell as strong, and there aren’t any green granules, but it works the same and I’d say it’s a tie with the Bubble Bandit for which works better. They’re both giving me excellent results. I’ve had some other people I know try the Cascade and they are as pleased with it as I’ve been. A good friend of mine actually bought a case and gave me a box, as well as to another friend. And we’ve been handing out small amounts to others as well.

 

[appnut]

Thank you!!!

 

[thomasortega]

Never, ever again i want to use a different kind of detergent.

My dishwasher is 2 year old, Kenmore full size portable bought brand new at sears.

The results were always "ok". once in a while one or other item would come out dirty. and everything always came out with that horrible film.

I finally decided to buy a whole carton of Cascade Fryer boil out.

I ran a cycle with the empty dishwasher and when the pre-rinse drained I already wanted to throw up. The dishwasher looked clean, no visible deposits. It drained like somebody had a diarrhea in the dishwasher.

The main wash drained the same, and the rinses drained clear. Even the pump noise changed, it sounds like the dishwasher is saying "Thank you".

Just in case I repeated, everything drained clear.

When I opened the dishwasher, OMG! I could then realize how dirty it was. it now looks like brand new, never used.

First load with dishes.... bob load.... The difference was SCARY. everything came out squeaky-clean, glasses shining, cutlery looking like each item was hand polished.

I'm glad I bought a carton, I even gave a box to Kevin and I'm seriously thinking about buying 2 or 3 more cartons just in case this product ends up discontinued by the Eco-nazi.

 

[ultralux88]

I don’t think phosphates will ever go away completely, those of us who know what good detergent is will always be able to round some up!

 

[combo52]

I Don't Use Phosphates And Have Perfect Results

In water that is about 7 gains of hardness.

 

All it takes is 1TB of cheap liquid or powered detergent in the 1st cup and a premium tablet in the main wash, and best of all no glassware etching and DW damage and less harm to the environment  that you get from using phosphates.

 

John L.

 

[appnut]

What dishwasher damage

with phosphates?

 

[ultralux88]

I’d say I have to have much harder water, though I have not yet had it tested (testing is more for my own curiosity, as the water here is hard enough to leave deposits on everything it touches) but completely intend on installing a softener. But the water deposits were definitely collecting in and damaging the internals of the dishwasher. Chunks of calcium seemed to be growing down in the pump or something and then eventually breaking loose and clogging the holes in the wash arm. Not to mention this schmaggy crud that looked kinda gray paper pulp kept appearing in all the crannies of the dishwasher, and it smelt like a manky dog covered in slobber. And worse yet, every time I’d clean it all out, run dishwasher cleaner through it would always come back, and I never really felt the dishwasher cleaner removed the water scale on the inside of the tub or all over the wash arms. I felt this was a recent problem, as I can remember in the past never having anything but a fresh and clean smell when you open the dishwasher, and I never saw crud collect in there at all, nor water scale. And I also remember when we used powdered Cascade, and the dishes never had water spots and we didn’t use Jet Dry. At one point I remember my mom not buying Cascade anymore, she said it just didn’t seem like it was cleaning the dishes anymore. The dishes and the dishwasher were in a steady decline at that point. Just the other day someone I know was lamenting that they remembered when they could slop the dirty dishes into the washer with no need for scraping or rinsing, and no concern for how much food was on them, as it all vanished magically during the cycle. Most people have been blaming it on the dishwasher and I at this point feel it’s the detergent more than anything.

 

[lakewebsterkid]

Damage

Yeah, no damage here at all. Silverware shines like new. Glasses have no etching and are soft feeling, rather than ‘sqeeky’. No residue in the DW, no mineral build up anywhere with 13 grains hardness. We have positive comments on our dishes, glasses, mugs, and silverware at every holiday. The Bosch does great, but does just that bit better with STPP added. Rinse aid setting is at the lowest possible level, and everything comes out with no water spots or streaking.

 

[iowabear]

I will give credit to P&G, they masterfully used the "crisis" created by the phosphate ban to drive their business, particularly the mass switch to the higher-priced packs.

 

Prior to the ban I used to buy a store brand detergent for $2 a box.  Based on the smell, I think it had chlorine bleach, not sure about enzymes but it did the job well enough for me.

 

After the ban I went to the Cascade brand powder, then the "deluxe" Cascade powder and finally to the Cascade packs to find something that worked as well as the old store brand.

 

I think there are three versions of powders now with enzymes: Cascade Complete, Finish and a new Walmart brand.  I've been meaning to give them a try.  The Finish powder is on sale locally this week for $4 for a 75oz box so I guess now is the time.

 

 

 

[lakewebsterkid]

Upward progression

We did the same. We always used Cascade basic gel until 2010. Then we switched “up” to Cascade Gel Complete, which actually was worse at the time, then to Cascade Powder, then Cascade Complete powder, and so forth through the ActionPacs. I agree that it was likely a strategic move.