Farewell to the incandescent light bulb

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supersuds

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I've always joked with my co-worker that we would be the last two to stop using incandescent bulbs. Fluorescents make you look ugly and the little sqiggly things are just not appealing in a vintage fixture. I don't even want to see the modern replacement to an appliance bulb in an oven or one of my monitor top refrigerators. Maybe they can legislate people driving their SUV's over a certain distance to work and back. That seems like a bigger waste of energy than my two 60 watt bulbs over my head.

I consume very little. Much of what I have or buy is someone else's used junk. I would think that's better than buying newer stuff every few years.

I agree, vote them out in 2008!
 
Hold On There Partner

Incandescent light bulbs aren't being totally banned by the new laws,according to the above linked article, only those that are wasteful. Also according to the article GE, Sylvania and others are well ahead of the ball and intend to have energy efficient incandescent bulbs in stores by 2010. Article goes on to state GE and other light blub makers are working on better fluorescents, that give off light similar to incandescents.

L.
 
I have nothing but good to say about the modern fluorescent bulb. I switched every bulb in my house three years ago and have only had to replace one.

Although the bulbs look different, they seem completely normal once you get used to seeing them on a daily basis.
 
The new CFL's are fine but don't like the politicians dictating what lamp you can use what washer or dishwasher you can buy.This nonesense has to end.ITS NOT GOING TO SAVE THE PLANET!We still need to leave it where YOU have the choice-not the politician.They are to be servents to us-not us to them.I see things getting to be like a DICTATORSHIP!we don't need that in the US.
 
Right now I can't see anyone I want to vote for with the exception of Ron Paul and he's on a Republican ticket----and I just won't go there.

Too bad Newt Gingrich doesn't run on an Independent Ticket!
 
Plain stupid

In my opinion, it is WAY WAY WAY too early to mandate CFLs because it is way,way, way to early to determine reliability of those CFL lamps. Just wait till they start to fail. Manufacturer's hype says that they will last years and years and years. But that DOES NOT mean that CFLs will be working well at the point of failure. I believe people think that CFLs will work just like new throughout their entire life - then just die... like the incandescents we're used to. No,I think not. As the CFLs age you'll be seeing hard starts, slow starts, lots of flicker, odor, cracked housing, smoldering etc. BUT if it LIGHTS, the lamp is STILL GOOD! No free replacement for you! I bet by midway through the manufacturer's proposed lifetime, those CFLs will be unusuable in most people's opinions. Of course, by that time the receipt will be in the garbage. Besides that, it isn't worth the time to get a free replacement from the manufacturer. I am testing CFLs very selectively within my house purely for my education. Even the best ones are not that impressive. Many are made by the Chinese which means a quality level somehwere around the bottom. I WILL be buying those boxes of unused light bulbs from estate sales from now on just to be sure (if its Westinghouse.. LOL). I do think CFLs are ok in some circumstances but to mandate them is just plain naive and stupid.
 
Quality fade

Forgot one more thing. (Forgive me, you hit a hot button with me).
The CHINESE are known for their quality-fade. You may indeed find the initial lots of CFLs likely to be of acceptable quality. Oh, everyone jumps on the CFL bandwagon. Paul - what are you talking about?? CFL lamps are wonderful!!
JUST WAIT... As acceptance grows and (heaven forbid) incandescents go away, the manufacturers will drop the quality to the point where they fail, fail,fail.
Watch out for quality fade with modern product lines.
 
Gyrafoam, I would like you to take a look at Dennis Kucinich - I think you will like what you find out. Oh, and he is still in the running despite not being in the last debate. Find out more on his web site, I am there too.

While he has an energy policy heavy on conservation, he DOES NOT plan to ban incandescent light bulbs!

http://www.dennis4president.com
 
There well may be some applications for which the older incandescent bulb technology is the only answer - such as for oven lights. I would imagine that some sort of exemption might be granted for such applications. But, who knows for sure? I wonder if the new "twice as efficient" incandescents will be able to take the heat of an oven?

As for CFL's, nearly every light in my home is fluorescent. I've even started replacing chandelier type fixtures with ceiling hugging circular fluorescent fixtures. The result is a cleaner look, and better lighting for less energy - even when the chandeliers were fitted with CFL's.

I am looking forward to the development of standard (medium) base LED lamps that can replace incandescents in fridges and freezers. I've tried using CFL's there but the low temps cause them problems.

Another black hole is the lack of any CFL that will fit a mogul base - I have a vintage floor lamp that takes such a bulb, in fact it's a 3-way bulb. I don't run it much because it's a big energy hog (100-200-300 watt) but it's still nice to light up once in a while. I guess I'll be stocking up on those bulbs just in case.
 
It isn't just a matter of 'saving the planet'. It has to do with conserving energy so we don't have to build as many power plants in the future, thus releasing fewer greenhouse gases.

People in many other countries use far less energy per person than we do and their standard of living isn't much different than ours. We're just used to being very wasteful because energy prices are relatively low in the USA.

Eventually, when our energy prices spike---and they will---then Americans may decide energy-saving products aren't such a bad idea, after all.

There are many excellent energy-saving products on the market along with the bad ones. People, for instance, complain loudly about standard low water usage toilets. Why not spend a bit more and get a pressure-flush toilet? My Gerber is fantastic, and while it cost more than a standard one, it does the job with one flush, and does it better than my old water hog.
 
Oy.

Like some other folks who've posted to this thread, I'm getting more than a little tired of being dictated to by the gummint and manufacturers. Fluorescent light is not equal to incandescent; it is cold (even the bulbs that are supposed to be "warm" in colour temperature), and the bulbs don't fit every fixture.

The things I'm accustomed to are disappearing fast, and I'm weary of it. I have a hard time finding bar soap, I have a hard time finding powdered detergent, I have a hard time finding many food products I like, I cannot buy a car that isn't laden with gummint-mandated gizmos that are supposed to save a fool's life in spite of his silly self.

What's crazy about all this is that the gummint will not do anything rational to deal with our environmental and energy crises. Soap is a very good example. Bar soap is far friendlier to the environment. Low in water content, it takes less energy to ship than pump soap. It's wrapped in a biodegradable waxed-paper wrapper, not packaged in petrochemical-laden plastic. Do you think any gummint czars have even whispered that perhaps bar soap is the way to go? Hell effin' no. Same with laundry detergent- if any common sense prevailed, we'd be seeing liquids phased out in favour of powders, which are less energy-consumptive to ship and which come in biodegradable cardboard, instead of seeing powders disappear in favour of liquids. Not a peep outta Washington over it, either.

Do you think any of the masterminds (thank you, Gloria Swanson!) in D.C. actually have the cojones to tell Detroit that it's time for some really hard-ass mandates over vehicle size, gross weight, and engine displacement, instead of vague "corporate average fuel economy" rules that damn near made the SUV inevitable? Nooooo- rules like that might actually do some frickin' good and save Detroit, instead of preserving corporate status quos and this quarter's paltry profits.

I've often observed that so-called "common sense" is the least common commodity on this planet, but things are getting ridiculous.

I'd get off my soapbox, if soap actually came in such sensible containers any more.
 
I don't think the government has anything to do with some stores deciding to stock liquid detergents instead of powders, or reducing the selection of bar soaps. It's all about what consumers buy, and how much they are willing to pay.

However in my area I've had no problem finding powdered laundry detergent, even the HE variety, nor have I had any problem finding bar soap to buy. I can even find the plainest, purest of all bar soaps, Ivory, at my local supermarket for a very good price.

Also, the energy law just passed does not dictate fluorescent lights. As has already been pointed out, it simply requires that lighting products meet certain efficiency standards.

With regard to the vehicle mileage standards, what hasn't been commented upon much if at all, is that this bill finally closes the SUV loophole. It requires ALL vehicles - cars, trucks, SUV's, to get an average of 35 mpg. Currently SUV's are classed as trucks and exempt from fuel efficiency standards. This bill will change that and it's a huge win for the environment.
 
Ralph:

"I don't think the government has anything to do with some stores deciding to stock liquid detergents instead of powders, or reducing the selection of bar soaps. It's all about what consumers buy, and how much they are willing to pay."

I didn't mean to say that the government is mandating the replacement of powders and bar soaps with liquids- I'm saying that it's standing idly by while manufacturers fall all over themselves creating the most wasteful products possible.

I do take your point about the new energy bill closing the SUV loophole, but it's a good fifteen years late, plus it does not really mandate smaller cars, which is what it's going to take to get real mileage gains in the hurry we need. 35 mpg just isn't all that great- ask our European members.

I'm just saying that our energy policy is piecemeal, doesn't address some very big areas of waste, and often seems to offer a curiously high level of financial benefit to corporations.
 
Our oldest Compact Fluorescent

Is now 10 years old.

Its one of the early Philips ones that you could retain the base but just swap out the tube. Its huge, but it still starts instantly and works perfectly. Out of the 30 CF Bulbs we have installed, two failed within 6 months and we just rang the Philips customer care line and had them returned. The rest are now a minimum of 18 months old and have had no problems.

We now have only 4 non CFL globes in our house, the oven, rangehood, Fridge (LED), Washer (LED). My understanding in Australia, is that specialty bulbs will still be available, just not the standard incandescent bulb.

Anyone who complains about the startup times or colour of a good quality CF globe hasnt tried one recently. 95% of our globes are Philips and are instant on down to about 5degC with immediate brightness. The latest generation of Philips bulbs, include a range that is the same size as a standard incandescent bulb and is rated at 60watts equivilent. All of our outside fixtured had an incandescent rating of 60watts, I've since put 120watt equivielent CF bulbs in and the difference is amazing.

The big benefit to us, is the $15 per quarter drop in our power bill that has occured since we made the change. Not only do we get more light, but it costs less.

I personally dont see what the big deal is, if the CF Globes were still cool coloured and slow to start I might understand, but the ones we get here are at least as good as a standard incandescent.
 
Our house is about 98% fluoresent now cepting the oven,mw,range hood, dryer and one outdoor spotlight which are all low use anyways. I'm more than happy with them. The Philips so far have been the best, instant on. The Noma and Sylvania I tried not quite so good so I put those into closet fixtures etc. rather than waste them. They're great in the dining room light fixture, 6 CFL's lighting up for the cost of about 80 watts of power. I only wish they were dimmable, that's the only downfall. I can't seem to find dimmable CFL's easily and the few I've seen are much too expensive currently.
I bought a GE torchier lamp that uses a dimmable GE D2 lamp but it became hard starting after a few months, now it can take about 15 minutes before it even decides to light. I also got 2 GE bedroom ceiling light fixtures that use the D2 lamp but I don't want to install them now if there's a problem with D2 lamps.
 
I don't really understand why it's not okay to mandate the use of more efficient light bulbs, yet it is ok to mandate that Washington tell Detroit that it's "time for some really hard-ass mandates over vehicle size, gross weight, and engine displacement, instead of vague "corporate average fuel economy" rules that damn near made the SUV inevitable?"

So, what's the difference? Either way a governmant mandate is dictating access to the products a consumer may want or desire. The argument makes no sense.

Instead, educate consumers as to what it costs to build a power plant to handle increased demand, and what that cost will do to their monthly utility bills. This is why utilities sponsor (and pay for) Demand Side Management programs which promote products like CFLs, high efficiency air conditioning systems, etc. Or do nothing and wait until utilities start charging residential customers a demand charge, like commercial customers must pay, to offset the cost of peak generation, as some have done in certain residential markets. Lack of conservation gets very expensive, very quickly. The cost of a new plant is staggeringly expensive. Someone has to pay for it, so it goes into rate base.

As for vehicles, consumers have seen the affects of "careless consumerism", and it doesn't appear to be having an adverse affect on their buying habits, even as gas prices have exceeded $3.00 a gallon. So, what do we do? Just keep going on like we've been doing? Or, as was suggested, have Washington tell Detroit to get on the ball??

It doesn't seem that consumers "get it" without that ever-annoying government intervention and interference, which is kind of counter to a free market economy. As someone put it previously, other societies with similar standards of living to ours do so with a smaller per capita expenditure for energy. Why can't we? Because no one makes us?

I've had CFLs for years, so what? They work just fine, indoors and out in the "harsh" Florida winters. None of these have ever faded, flickered, failed to start, or turned yellow with age. The CFLs in the coach lights have been running for almost 2 years now, dusk to dawn, every single day, and they're still going strong. I have them all over the house and haven't replaced a single bulb yet (except that one that I dropped....oooops!). There is a noticeable differene in heat output in the rooms where they live in the summertime. Very noticeable.
 
I think there are multiple resaons why the move to more efficient lighting is being legislated.

For one thing, people are creatures of habit. Many will continue to replace incandescent bulbs with incandescent bulbs, no matter how much they are "educated" about the energy savings. This is especially true when the more efficient bulbs cost more than the older type.

If people continue to buy the inefficient incandescent bulbs, companies will continue to make them. Stores will continue to stock them. Energy will continue to be wasted.

The same goes for cars. The popularity (until recently) of huge gas guzzling SUV's is enabled by the fact that there is a loophole in the mileage legislation, which exempts trucks. One Prius can go four times as far, or more, on a gallon of gas than a Lincoln Navigator, a Hummer, a Suburban, or a Commander. OK, so what if people want to pay for the gas? Well, it puts our nation ever deeper into hock to the oil exporting nations of the world, something clearly is not in our collective best interests.

What hasn't been commented upon, so far, here, is that the new energy standards apply not only to car and trucks and lightbulbs, but also to appliances like washers and dishwashers. My best guess is that this likely will mean the end of the traditional agitator-driven top loader in this country. People will have to choose between Cabrio/Harmony style toploaders, or front loaders. And maybe we'll start seeing A/C-Dryer combinations, such as are being pioneered over in Asia. What it will do to dishwashers I can't imagine. I thought they were rather efficient already. Perhaps no more heated dry, who knows?
 
And that's my point exactly. Unfortunately, people don't, or won't, change their habits easily. So, the behavior ends up being legislated. Many look at it only on a very localized level, but when you add up the energy savings attributable to such policies on an end user basis, it's very substantial.

Electric and gas utilities have been using Demand Side Management programs like CFL replacement to avoid generation for over 20 years now. The former LILCO in Long Island was one of the very first to have a comprehensive Demand Side Management suite of programs aimed at residential and commercial customers. My former company was one of those charged with evaluating the energy and social impact of those programs, and their impact was substantial for the utility and its customers.

While there are certainly legitimate needs for large SUVs, let's face it, the majority of buyers don't "need" one. But bigger is better!!!
 
AndrewInOrlando:

"I don't really understand why it's not okay to mandate the use of more efficient light bulbs, yet it is ok to mandate that Washington tell Detroit that it's "time for some really hard-ass mandates over vehicle size, gross weight, and engine displacement, instead of vague "corporate average fuel economy" rules that damn near made the SUV inevitable?""

Andrew:

I take your point that I seem to have presented an inconsistent argument, and I apologise for any lack of clarity. My intention was to communicate that there are governmental interventions that are necessary, and those that are needlessly obtrusive. In the case of mandates over vehicle size, gross weight, and engine displacement, such mandates would actually help keep choices open for consumers. Within the limits of the mandates, they could choose any size, style, or elaboration they wanted. Without mandates, we are getting into dangerous territory, because every wasted gallon of gas means that the remaining supply of oil is just that much more valuable, and therefore expensive. We're already seeing the working poor and the lower echelons of the middle class squeezed hard by gas prices, and it's going to get much worse. At $3 a gallon, you're beginning to see workers squeezed out of jobs they can't afford to drive to, etc. At $5 or $6, you have a ripple effect on our economy that might undermine our way of life to a very significant extent. We have to save gas if we're going to maintain the choice of personal transportation, pure if not exactly simple.

What I object to is mandates that effectively eliminate affordable, reliable technologies in favour of less-proven ones that cost more. Energy standards for washing machines are a good example. It's getting very much harder for top-loaders (cheap, proven tech) to meet the standards, so front-loaders are the most available machines now. But front-loaders cost significantly more than top-loaders, their HE detergents are more expensive, and front-loaders- at least current models- seem to be less reliable than top-loaders. It is true that many consumers can and have made the transition, but what about the working poor and those on fixed incomes? Does anyone really think that a $600-2000 washer, plus its expensive detergent and the likelihood of expensive repairs, is within the reach of a working poor family? For now, they can get by with an old top-loader, but the unreasonable mandates we have for washers will dry up the supply of top-loaders sooner or later. What then? Will clean clothes become a privilege for the wealthy?

Poor people often cannot afford the front-end costs associated with energy savings, even though the investment would save them money- they have to pay for their lives from paycheck to paycheck, because they never earn enough to get ahead. When the time comes that incandescent bulbs are no longer readily available, I promise you that $3-$5 per fluorescent will be a pinch for those who rely on those four-for-a-buck incandescent cheapies at Big Lots and Dollar General.

And there were and are other ways to mandate energy savings for lighting. Retrofitting older commercial buildings, reducing outdoor lighting, reducing the amount of advertising display lighting used by "strip" businesses (look at the amount of lighting on a Wendy's or a Blockbusters sometime). We could reduce lighting energy use by beginning with users well able to afford it, instead of impacting those who can't afford it so easily.

What I'm trying to say here is that the goverment, as my high-school Spanish teacher used to say, is putting the ac-CENT on the wrong syl-LA-ble, in my opinion. We need sensible mandates that extend our resources and maintain as much choice as possible, using affordable, reliable technologies to the extent feasible. We do not need mandates that cost people money they genuinely can't afford, promote unreliable tech, and/or eliminate choice entirely.

I hope you understand that all this is in the spirit of discussion, and not intended to be argumentative.
 
~"And there were and are other ways to mandate energy savings for lighting. Retrofitting older commercial buildings, reducing outdoor lighting, reducing the amount of advertising display lighting used by "strip" businesses (look at the amount of lighting on a Wendy's or a Blockbusters sometime). We could reduce lighting energy use by beginning with users well able to afford it, instead of impacting those who can't afford it so easily."

I agree. Look at car lots, refineries, and other places. I can't use my telescope here because of all of the light pollution. Have you seen those night time satellite pictures of earth? Not many dark areas in the U.S. until you get west, then its bright again on the west coast. I remember 1979. We as a country conserved fuel by using fewer lights in homes and businesses, cities/states turned off every other street light on highways, etc. I belive Prague and other cities have actually cracked down on "light pollution" in order to allow people to see the stars and a little darkness.

In reference to the quality fade mentioned above, incanescents have been a victem of this too. I distinctly remember when I was a kid the boxes of 100W bulbs stating that they lasted 1500 hours, now it is down to 750 hours. The brightness (lumens) is decreased too. I switched to 130V bulbs. These are the ones marketed as 20,000 hour bulbs when run on 110V. Many places sell them for over $3.00 each, but my local hardware store had them in four packs for $1.50. When their supplier changed sources two years ago, I bought every one the store had. Most have lasted years, a few only two years. I have 9' ceilings and have to use ladders (not step stools) to change my bulbs. I'm now starting to use CFLs in my hard to reach fixtures since my supply of 130V bulbs is slowly dwindling thanks to one outdoor light that kept blowing bulbs - I checked and rechecked the wiring and can find nothing wrong, moisture can't get to it easily, but it could be condensation. The CFL is working perfect in this fixture.

The best incandescent light I have found is the cheap two pack (for $5) flood light bulbs I got at Lowe's (I think). Forgot the manufacturer, but it was a light green box. I had one last 3 1/2 years of 18-24 hour per day use (I had a light sensor to turn it off, but that area is shaded all but 4-6 hours a day, and on cloudy days it stayed on). It even survived a hurricane and only quit working because I broke it :(

As far as cars, modern trucks often only get 16-21 mpg. Compare that to my 50 year old inefficient engine (compared to todays capabilities) 5,000 pound '58 Buick which gets 15mpg with or without the A/C running. Many new trucks are actually lighter than my Buick - have we made any progress? An early 80's Chrysler K Car got 35mpg. New cars get about the same - any progress? To be fair, efficiency increases have allowed us to get a lot more power out of engines while keeping gas mileage about the same, so you can argue that we have increased efficiency. I like horsepower as much as the next man, but do we really need it for day to day driving?

Having said all of this, I personally do not like the government to dictate to me what I can use for lighting or even what I can drive. I personally believe a large part of energy waste comes from businesses (look at all of the lights left on all night at car dealerships, etc, etc.), not residential use. Just as I think a lot of air pollution comes from diesel trucks and buses, not gas cars - modern pollution standards are pretty good, but look at the brown-black crap coming out of big trucks, kinda looks the same color as the big city smog cloud doesn't it? Government doesn't seem to regulate the transportation industry on pollution and businesses as much on energy waste, just us regular citizens.
 
I did a cut and paste and missed it on proof reading. The last sentence of my above post should have read:

Government doesn't seem to regulate the transportation industry AS MUCH on pollution and businesses as much on energy waste, just us regular citizens.
 
Regarding car mileage over the years...

Newer cars weigh a lot more than cars of 20 or more years ago. That's due to better crash protection, sound proofing, etc. That K car was, comparatively, a tin can.

The K car also had an underpowered motor. As I recall it came standard with a 2 liter four, which if it made more than 100 HP it was lucky. The smallest chrysler product today, the Dodge Calibre, has a stock 2.4 liter motor making 150 HP. In general, car motors today make a lot more power than those of a few decades ago. Although they are also more efficient, you can't get that power for nothing - it raises fuel consumption per mile. The lenient mileage requirements have encouraged the HP race.

Finally, mileage standards have been tightened in the past year. Newer car mileage figures are supposed to reflect actual driving conditions more, instead of a closed circuit flat track. As a result, official mileage figures have gone down by more than a few mpg.
 
CAFE and fuel economy standards

One reason cars here are much less efficient than those worldwide is due to the stupidity of the whole CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) concept. In every other country with any penalty for owning a large or powerful car, the tax is paid by the indivudual when the car is registered. In contrast, CAFE fines the manufacturer for making an inefficient car. The actual payment is from them to the government and since there is no way to account for internal cash flow within companies, there is no way to tell if the monies for the fine actually come from the sale of the cars being taxed or from the sale of other, more efficient cars. Plus, most people finance cars and so any additional cost is financed, usually over for to six years, making the tax pretty small on a monthly basis.

The result is that CAFE is probably the most ineffective way to tax inefficient cars that could be devised. When it was initially implemented over thirty years ago, we had the least fuel efficient fleet in the world. We still do. If the government actually wants to encourage the purchase of efficient cars (as opposed to just collecting money), then it should dump CAFE in favor of simple registration taxes that target oversized, overweight, inefficient cars and must be paid directly by the owner without involving the manufacturer. This has worked in many other countries. There should of course be exemptions for collector cars which rarely get driven enough to matter.

I would suggest the same system for light bulbs. Don't penalize the manufacturer, just tax incandescent bulbs to the point where they cost more than LED or CF lamps. Then people will think before buying them, but they'll still be available for those who really need them (for special fixtures) or who prefer them enough to pay extra.

I am amazed by how a bunch of inept politicians can take a simple concept and make it mind-bogglingly complex.
 
Light Pollution:

"I can't use my telescope here because of all of the light pollution."

I hear ya. My neighbour across the street has his front yard lit up like daylight all year round. Now that it's Christmas, it looks like he's advertising that Wayne Newton and Charo are going to appear there.
 
Light Pollution

I have mixed feelings about it...

There's a very bright streetlight just a door down from my place. I casts a light orange glow over everything, making photos of the xmas lights look washed out and de-colored. On the other hand, when it failed a few weeks ago, I was on the phone to the city repeatedly, demanding that they fix it. This end of the block was very dark without it, and I'm positive that it helps deter unwanted characters (burglars and robbers among others).

However it's not too difficult to travel to a more remote area of the state and see the stars in all their glory. I guess it's more difficult to do that on the East Coast.
 
Light pollution-mostly due to poorly chosen or poorly designed fixtures that cast light in unwanted areas.Making cutoff fixtures for outdoor use is not difficult.These fixtures would be a boon to astronomers.Cutoff fixtures are available for streetlighting-these should not interfere with skywatchers.In fact these fixtures can use lower wattage light sources since all of the light is focused to the ground or street where its needed.none is directed upward.
 
also think about all of this ballyhoo about lighting equipment-esp when lighting IS NOT the primary energy user in most homes and business-its the HVAC,food refrigeration,cooking,and water heating.Yet do we see strict requirements on HVAC equipment,water heaters,and fridges-esp commercial-industrial ones.the requirements are there but not so ballyhooed-as for lighting equipment.Think of it-that oven,water heater,etc is burning up far more power than ANY incandescent bulb!These things need to be put in better perspective.Politicians need to stop mindlessly banning things and starting thinking more-this is not happening.Otherwards these guys are really not TECHNICALLY qualified to make the erronious decisions they are making.ENOUGH ALREADY!
 
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