FL WASHERS and BAD MOLD SMELLS; when did you 1st hear about this issue?

[cfz2882]

LOL...that desription of american washing in reply #74 is actually accurate
in many cases-except for the boiling part and the 50x wear rate part...

 

[combo52]

SMELLY WASHERS

Allen this just goes to prove my point, you will never have a smelly washer, any type of buildup or spider corrosion from using too much detergent. Its using too little that causes almost all these problems. I have just a little bit of experience with washers and what goes wrong with them from working on over 30,000 TL & FL machines over the last 40 years and interviewing the users about the problems and finding solutions for them.

 

[whirlcool]

She uses ERA liquid for a detergent. She washes a load or two every other day all week long. She also uses two capfuls of Downy in the dispenser. She loves Downy.

 

[launderess]

About Post #74

What era is this professor speaking about?

American housewives by and large stopped boiling laundry years ago. Hot water supplied via taps is going to be between 120F or perhaps 160F (back in the day, but rarely today). So his comment about high temperature washing is just flat out wrong.

As for long cycles, American top loading washing machines complete (the real ones, not those being sold today), finished a load on "Normal" in about 30mins at their longest cycle (about 14mins of washing), so again not sure where the man gets his "hours" of washing time from.

 

[limey]

Spider Corrosion And Foul Odours

COMBO52
I don’t know if anyone else except me does the maths on your claims of experience but 30, 000 over 40 years equates to 750 per year. That equates to just over 2 for every day of the year. Take out the weekends (104 days) and this increases the daily rate to 2.87 per day, take out 10 days per year for annual holidays (we have already deducted the weekends) and the daily rate increases to just under 3 per day, take out another 4 days for statutory holidays and the rate increases to fractionally over 3 per day. That averages, for an 8 hour day, to 2 hours 40 minutes per appliance, not an impossible number I agree but when one considers that this may include traveling time it becomes a little more questionable as to what you actually ‘do’, just a brief consultation, very possible but major repairs very questionable. A combination of ‘brief consultation’, ‘quick diagnosis’ and some repair work (or even supervision of repair work) and it becomes a more realistic number.
In some of your other posts you have claimed experience on over 2,000 units per year. At 2,000 per year, assuming the same deductions as above, this reduces the average time per appliance to just one hour, again not out of the realms of possibility but again taking into account ‘traveling time’ not very long for actual diagnostic work and rectification.
In some of your other posts you have made the claim that corrosion of the spiders could be caused by use of too little detergent but have so far failed to answer my query(ies) as to how this occurs. I therefore repeat he question.
‘How does using to little detergent cause corrosion of the aluminium spiders?’
I look forward to your response.

 

[combo52]

NUMBERS OF APPLIANCES SERVICED

The numbers are reassembly correct as your math showed. If you want anymore response than that fill out your profile, tell us of your qualifications to be having this conversation. Thanks.

 

[Pingmeep]

@limey I believe it was combo that said that powdered detergents contained protecting elements and not using enough robbed you of that protection. In addition not using enough detergent could lead to build up of foreign matter because instead of seperating and suspension it coats the tub. Doesn't that sound similar to your theory of outside the safe pH range dry out?

If I got that wrong I apologize combo. I've lurked here for years and the discussions blur together.

Limey while your theories make sense and your attempts haven't really got the response they deserve (I've read about your letters and phonecalls to and meetings with manufacturers) why go to town on a person's experience and their livelyhood? It's readily apparent that this issue is important to you but doing the math using a formula that reduces an appliances repaired to in home only seems like a strawman argument. Add a couple of institutional/manufactuer clients/employers and that number is more than reachable in 40 years.

 

[3beltwesty]

Re UK profs joke blurb and little soap usage causing mold

Chestermikeuk : I saw your comment before you deleted it in Reply #75.

The UK Professor's/comedian's? blurb probably was more of a nice joke than serious. I got a good laugh, thus I posted it and the link. It just was posted as an interesting comment; not to cause a USA versus UK fight as you commented to me. The blurb has so many errors that it is hard to see how somebody would take it as real. ie the weather in the USA is never 80C, and thus since it was made by a so called professor it points to a spoof/joke since one has such a grave error. References to boiling water sounds almost pre 1900 too.

Too All; here my take maybe more in line with Ronhic's; is that excessive usage of detergents WORSENS issues with mold in a washer that is less robust.

The lack of usage of detergent causing mold issues makes no sense to me, since here I have used FL washers now for a 1/2 century and ALWAYS use the minimum soap required to due the job at hand.

 

[sudsmaster]

Aluminum and detergent....

Take a look at what's been happening with automotive antifreezes.

Older formulations contained silicates and phosphates (simple phosphate, not complex like STPP). Both acted to protect aluminum components, as well as brass and other metals.

Along came the "extended life" antifreeze that substituted organics for the inorganic protective agents. These had problems with the lead solder in older brass radiators, leaching out the lead. So some mfgs produce a hybrid antifreeze with silicates added back in to help protect aluminum and brass.

1) Not all powdered detergents in the USA contain zeolites. In fact just a minority, if any, do.

2) The main water softener in US powders is washing soda, sodium carbonate. However virtually all US powders also contain sodium silicate, which helps to protect washer parts including aluminum.

3) As far as I know, aluminum is most susceptible to attack by acids, and also by very strong bases, such as sodium hydroxide (lye). Washing soda is not basic or strong enough to cause a problem, esp. in a detergent that also contains sodium silicate.

4) There are many different types of aluminum alloys, some far more resistant to corrosion than others. For example, the original aircraft alloy was duralumin, which was a 2000 series alloyed with copper, today refered to as 2024. It is strong, but the copper content makes it susceptible to corrosion. To combat this, a layer of pure aluminum is often used to coat the 2024, the resulting product is called alclad (perhaps where the cookware got its name as well...). Duralumin isn't used as much today in aircraft as 7075, which is alloyed with zinc, and much more corrosion resistant as well as being more machinable and stronger.

5) In any case, without knowing what kind of aluminum alloy is used, it is difficult to predict how a part will perform in a potentially corrosive environment. Modern washers SHOULD be using corrosion resistant aluminum alloys for any parts that might be subjected to the wash water. It only makes sense.

6) Failures of aluminum spiders in washers is most likely caused by poor castings with porous crevices. That is, the parts are defective from the factory. As an example, my Neptune 7500 developed a crack in the spider after about 3 years of service. It was replace under warranty. The new spider looked different and the repair guy said it had been improved - perhaps due to these casting problems. The washer has performed flawlessly since then, for more than seven years, no more spider cracking issues (the main symptom of which was a slight grinding or buzzing noise when the drum reversed tumbling with a heavy load of towels). And I use mostly wash powders, albeit boosted with phosphate (STPP).

 

[3beltwesty]

Aluminum Spiders in the USA are usually CAST Aluminums

The Aluminums you mentioned 2024 and 7075 are not cast Aluminums; they are sheet or plate grades of Aluminum. 2024 before WW2 was called 24S. Submarines of Germany in WW1 were Aluminum, the museium in Munich has a WW1 Aluminum submarine.

Aluminums on spiders are castings in machines sold in USA FL washers.

The cast Aluminum is probably just dumb 380 or 386 cast Aluminum if die cast; or 356 Aluminum if sand cast.

As you already mentioned, casting porosity is a huge issue.

Any porosity adds gobs more surface area; and provides a rich area to trap water and chemicals that cause corrosion.

Usage of Aluminum in a washing machine really points to very poor careless engineering, more of a beginners mistake. Spiders that are space age and thin with gobs of surface area point to a design for stiffness, one designed for maximum surface area to corrode quickly. The whole design points to newbie, greenhorn, or an old fart who really does not give a damn about corrosion. Connections with two different materials and getting corrosion was understood 2 thousand years ago, ie the Romans. Thus the Aluminum spider on a Stainless drum is too a retarded poor design, one with a spider that is less Noble and dissolves with time. If this was just 1995 one could say their were just a few newbies. But the same basic flawed design gets copied, Beavis copying Butthead's bad design.

 

[limey]

Number Of Appliances Serviced

To COMBO52,
Thank you for your response.
Should you have been solely, or almost solely, employed in reassembly the numbers quoted above are, in my view, entirely ‘doable’ particularly should you be employed, or largely employed, in a workshop, or even, as pingmeep states below, with clients at institutions or industrial installations, although I would have expected these type of clients to be using the much larger ‘industrial machines’.
As for my qualifications for taking part in this discussion, I am, as I have stated in thread 29110, post #447030, a very teed off consumer. The initial cause of my discontent was the policy of Sears/Frigidaire/Electrolux on the supply of spare parts, the more I discovered the more discontented I became.
By the way I note that you have considerably revised your experience numbers above, from those quoted in post #446219 in thread 29110 (over 60,000 total and 3,000 plus per year ) which is correct?

 

[limey]

To pingmeep
Thank you for your input.
I believe I have seen two posts, on different sites, concerning inhibitors being present in detergents. The subject did not come up in my conversation with P&G re ‘Tide’. Should detergent manufacturers’ be including it/them in their products I would expect them to be listed in the MSDS for the detergent concerned. I do not recollect seeing any listed in any MSDS I have seen, that is not to say no manufacturer lists them, just that I do not recollect seeing any. Whirlpool do list ‘Boric Acid’ in the MSDS for ‘Affresh’, as far as I am aware (I do not have independent verifiable evidence), ‘Boric Acid’ is used in detergents as an enzyme stabiliser, but that is about as close as I can come to inhibitors.
I do not recollect, but could be in error, seeing that statement from Combo52, or anyone else. Incorrect dosing of an inhibitor, however administered, would likely, I feel, lead to a reduction of protection. However a blanket statement that insufficient detergent leads to spider corrosion I feel, requires some explanation.
Thank you for your support, however lukewarm, it is appreciated. However Combo52 has disputed many of my statements, some with statements that are blatantly untrue and has failed to give me any corroborating, verifiable evidence, of the source of his information for others. For examples please see thread 29110. He appears to think that just because he makes a statement it is true regardless of evidence to the contrary, and I do not believe that an attitude like that should be allowed to continue unchecked Just for the record I am likely just as bad as he at heart, in that repect. However as I spent a good portion of my working life having to justify my position to sceptics of one sort or another I am therefore very careful as to what I state as a fact and what I state as a thought. I still do not always ‘get it right’ either.

 

[limey]

Aluminum and detergent

To sudsmaster,
Thank you for your input.
In response to your item 3). In this regard all I can do is refer you to a sample MSDS for sodium carbonate, in this case anhydrous, at: -
http://www.hillbrothers.com/msds/pdf/n/soda-ash-lite-100.pdf
which shows that, at Page 5, Section 9, for a 1% solution it has a pH of 11.4 (over 100 times more alkaline than the maximum safe pH level (9.0) for any aluminium alloy. It must also be remembered that it is not the pH level of any particular constituent of an aqueous solution that determines its ability to corrode aluminium but the pH level of the solution overall. In this case I can only refer you to the MSDS for one of the powdered ‘Tides’ at : -
http://www.pg.com/productsafety/msd...rgents/Tide_HE_Granular_Laundry_Detergent.pdf
which, on page 4, give a pH value of 10-11.5 with a 1% solution.
Interestingly this specimen also lists amongst its constituents, Silicate at 3-7% and Zeolite as 10-30%.
As for aluminium being more readily corroded by acids than bases I can only offer the following. The engineering and scientific community at large appear to generally accept that corrosion of aluminium commences when it is in an aqueous solution with a pH above about 8.0 or below about 4.0. Now as the pH scale is logarithmic, to the base 10, this means that at a pH level of 8.0 the concentration of hydroxide ions is 100 in 10,000,000 whereas with a pH level of 4.0 the concentration of hydrogen ions is 1,000 per 10,000,000. Therefore it would appear that for a given alloy corrosion due to alkalis occurs at a lower concentration than for acids.
With respect to your items 4), 5) and 6) I can offer little comment except that we are unlikely to be advised of the actual composition of the alloy that is used for the spider. I agree that the actual composition of the alloy will affect the rate at which corrosion occurs, given identical aqueous solution.

 

[limey]

Aluminium Castings and Corrosion

To 3beltwesty.
Thank you for your comments.
On none of the four spiders I have physically seen has there been any sign of surface breaking porosity. I appreciate that this number does not mean very much it is just a personal observation. Further they appear to have been die cast.
One point I do disagree on is the basic cause of the corrosion of these spiders. For it to be galvanic the majority of the corrosion would be at or very close to the junction of the two materials, i.e. at the end of the spider arms. I have seen no photographs of failed spiders where this is the case, nor have I seen any written description of failures in this area. There is a very good paper on galvanic corrosion at: -
http://www.unene.ca/un1001/UN1001_Galvanic Corrosion.ppt
In addition to showing how galvanic corrosion does occur it also explains why those although stainless steel is nobler than aluminium it does not easily supply the required electrical connection. As a point of interest mild steel, the material of the spider shaft is nobler than stainless steel.

 

[limey]

Corrosion of Aluminium

To sudsman.
One point I omitted earlier is that nitric acid is a well known exception to acids that cause corrosion. Apparently the salt(s) formed initially prevent further corrosion. Somewhat similar to the naturally occuring oxide coat that forms in air.
Sorry I missed that out earlier.

 

[neptunebob]

If the aluminum spider is such a problem, why don't the manufacturers just make it out of steel?  Or even a sturdy plastic?  Is there some reason why it has to be aluminum?  Oh, I don't think plastic will cause problem with odor here because the spider is in motion would shed the moisture

 

I still think the use of in the outer tub and in the case of the Neptune, that case that contains the water hoses is the cause of the odor.  I also notice the plastic is rather rough, which must provide a place for mold to grow.  Why could it not be smooth like Tupperware is?  You will notice, water beads up on Tupperware and does not stay around.

 

If aluminum spiders are such a problem, I would think Alcoa research would have come up with a solution by now.

 

Meanwhile, I am worried about something else that might grow mold.  Today's airliners are made of aluminum and the air inside is dry to prevent corrosion.  But the new Boeing 787 Dreamliner is made of "composite" (AKA Plastic) and Boeing claims that the air can be kept more humid and there is more pressure inside, which I guess helps people with respiratory problems.  Are we going to see reports in the future about "moldliners"?

 

Rich are you referring to Dexcool?  It is a disaster!  We have a Buick Century where we had to have all the hoses and radiator replaced because the Dexcool turned into a gel (just like when you leave Metamucil in the glass too long).  We followed directions exactly and that still happened.  Dexcool may have been one reason for GM going bankrupt.

 

Oh, one other thing, isn't boric acid rather corrosive?  Didn't we almost have another nuclear accident because of boric acid almost corroding a hole in a nuclear power plant?

 

 

[3beltwesty]

Limey;

Re "One point I do disagree on is the basic cause of the corrosion of these spiders. For it to be galvanic the majority of the corrosion would be at or very close to the junction of the two materials, i.e. at the end of the spider arms. I have seen no photographs of failed spiders where this is the case, nor have I seen any written description of failures in this area. "

The spider and drum do NOT go completely underwater like not a Boat's propeller, the spin basket's shaft is above the water level on my old 1976 westy too. With a modern front loader; the water level often just touches the spin basket.

Thus from a galvanic corrosion issue; the shafts to spider junction area is above the water level always by design in any front loader washer of any era.

It is the end arms to basket junction that sees water exposure the most, plus it has the highest velocity to have its water shed off compared to the inter shaft area.

The web is full of aluminum spiders that are all corroded and were folks washers have broken. There are posts and images that go back for a decade. The whole issue of Aluminum spiders breaking due to corrosion has documented failures even before 2000, thus to me it is criminal that the engineers design in such a poor design.

Aluminum is not the proper material to use in a washer, folks did not do this 1/2 century ago. Engineers then had pride in creating a good design.

An engineer from Mars could arrive tomorrow, 2005,or 2000 and Google "washer problems" and find failed Front loaders and bad aluminum spiders. If he had a gram of integrity he would not use Aluminum, or make the design more robust with a spider with less surface area, ie thicker dumb.

An engineer 100 years ago knew that one wanted raw thickness in areas were one has corrosion. Folks knew this 3000 years ago, thicker items last longer around corrosion. Folks knew this 10.000 years ago with fence posts, a thicker post lasts longer when in the ground.

The aluminum spider and stainless basket are not so simple as battery plates in a solution for galvanic corrosion. The assembly sees a complex environment, thus folks simple models do not fit. The spiders end arms see more water, but also see a higher acceleration to shed water.

(1) Aluminum is poor for fatigue life, a cyclic failure where stress varies.

(2)Cast materials have high spreads in fatigue failures due to casting finish and porosity.

(3) Spiders that are space age CAD designed for strength and have thin webs are poor in a corrosive environment. A Roman engineer knew this, but would go to the gallows for such bad infraction. An engineering book from 100 years ago on design around corrosion areas clearly mentions corrosion as being mills/year, mm/year and stresses one wants thick members to have parts last longer. The thin Aluminum spider is a great design to spin in air, but poor around a corrosive laundry wash area. A Miele spider is Steel,and is a simple rectangular shape to have the least surface area and decent thickness.

Most new front loaders sold in the USA today have a design that has many design flaws:

(a)Aluminum in wash area

(b)Dissimilar metals bonded together in a corrosive environment

(c)Cast materials in corrosive environment.

(d)Thin sections of metals that corrode in a corrosive environment

Design Flaws of a to d create a washer designed to fail with time and wash cycles, a marketers DREAM COME TRUE!

 

[3beltwesty]

Spiders are CAST Aluminum to cost little, ie be cheap

One can buy a die cast LG spider and shaft brand new on Ebay for about 75 with freight. A global web search has a guy in the Midwest selling them for about 45 bucks.

The spider and shaft probably cost about 10 bucks to make in Korea.

Making the Y shaped spider a solid chunk of steel rectangles with a welding in shaft and machined true would cost a lot more, maybe 30 to 50 bucks ? ? ? each thus makers would have to charge maybe 100 + bucks more per washer

 

[limey]

Response to neptunebob

Thank you for your input.
‘If the aluminum spider is such a problem, why don't the manufacturers just make it out of steel? Or even a sturdy plastic? Is there some reason why it has to be aluminum? Oh, I don't think plastic will cause problem with odor here because the spider is in motion would shed the moisture’
Good question, my opinion, the almighty dollar, it is the cheapest way to make anything that comes close to being ‘acceptable’ but, again in my opinion, fails miserably.
Although the spider is in motion this does not mean that it will automatically shed all the ‘water’ from all areas. It is my considered opinion that even at the fastest spin speeds in front load washers there are areas of the spider where the speed of rotation is insufficient to cause sufficient centrifugal force to be generated to ‘throw’ the ‘water’ off. These areas are the shaft and the hub of the spider. As an example, my Frigidaire built ‘Kenmore’ at approximately 1,000 rev/min has the outer rim of the inner drum traveling at approximately 60 miles/hour whereas, at the same rotational speed, the outer edge of the recesses in the spider hub are only travelling at approximately 6 miles/hour. You may have noticed a similar thing with the beaters on kitchen mixers, the ‘mix, sticks to the shaft but is thrown off the arms of the beaters.
‘If aluminum spiders are such a problem, I would think Alcoa research would have come up with a solution by now.’
Maybe they have but its implementation would almost certainly cost dollars and therefore cut into the bottom line or increase the cost of the appliance. Another detrimental effect of corrective action, in my opinion, and the bean counters really would not like this, it would reduce the number of overpriced spares ‘they’ could sell and also reduce the number of new machines required by the consumers as their older ones would last longer. ‘Got to create the market’.

‘Meanwhile, I am worried about something else that might grow mold. Today's airliners are made of aluminum and the air inside is dry to prevent corrosion. But the new Boeing 787 Dreamliner is made of "composite" (AKA Plastic) and Boeing claims that the air can be kept more humid and there is more pressure inside, which I guess helps people with respiratory problems. Are we going to see reports in the future about "moldliners"?’
On that one your guess is as good as, and likely better than, mine.
‘Oh, one other thing, isn't boric acid rather corrosive?’
My information, gleaned by perusing various MSDS’s for Boric Acid via internet searches is that in the case of very high concentrations its pH level will drop below 4.0 and it could therefore possibly be corrosive to some aluminium alloys. One MSDS at: -
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/b3696.htm
notes that if water is present it can be corrosive to iron.
Hope this helps.

 

[combo52]

ALUMINUM WASHER PARTS

3bw and others 90% of all automatic washers ever made have critical parts made of aluminum that are exposed to water. This includes all MTs all WPs both BD & DD all Norges all GEs & Hotpionts etc etc in fact one of the few washers that did not have major aluminum parts were the FL westinghouses and yet they were widely considered one of the most unreliable automatic washers anyway.

 

These aluminum parts including the spiders in newer FL washers do not fail very often, and 95% of spider failures we have seen in recent years failed because of poor usage habits by the machines user. I have yet to be surprised when we see a broken spider the machine usually stinks and has been used with cold water and way too little and or cheap detergents.

 

Limey your comments about the numbers of machines I have worked on are taken out of context. I said in an earlier post that I have have worked on over 60,000 appliances and more recently I said I have worked on more than 30,000 automatic washers. Both of these statements are conservative and correct. In all your posts you have yet to bring any information to this site that is the least bit useful to helping me or probably anyone else fix or diagnose any appliance problems.