Follow-up on LG FL washer...a year later. SQ it is.

[dreamclean]

And sorry if I sounded overly defensive but these problems are so much bigger than me. That's one reason I put so much time into this because I'm trying to get the the core of the problem for everybody. I've read the complaints of so many people spending a lot of their precious time doing laundry and troubleshooting instead of living life. Or they're replacing machines that couldn't get the job done when it could have been their detergent all along. It's a combination of factors and there is room for improvement across industries. Just bumping up the water levels could probably help a lot. And reformulating the detergents to be more compatible/effective with low water, not just to reduce suds.

 

[littlegreeny]

Very Interesting Discussion

I'm sorry you've been having problems with your LG's. I wish I could offer you some creative solutions but you seem to have really thought of every variable.

I'm actually the guy (David Lee) that asked Consumer Reports to start testing rinsing performance of washers and have been eagerly awaiting them to post results. Frankly I'm surprised this hasn't been part of normal testing for both washing machines and detergents. These new washers use less and less water and many don't even spin between rinses, how can they expect laundry to be rinsed properly? And detergents seem harder to rinse out, especially Persil.

 

[mattl]

Got to say my experience is vastly different than yours...  Sheets - hot water -- I have some sheets that are many many years old and the elastic is fine.  Towels hot too- no issues, the rest warm.  My water is hot 150+.  I modified my Duet to use hotter water too.   I never bother reading care labels, if something can't handle my laundry methods and it self destructs I don't need it.   Can't say that has ever happened.

 

Tide pods or powder are my only detergents, with a bit of oxygen bleach when needed.  I also use a tiny bit of Downey.  All laundry is done in a couple of Duets.  I only dry towels, sheets and such.  Shirts, Jeans and such are hung to dry.

 

I do not discount your issues, you have given us photographic evidence, I just don't understand why it's happening.  I wonder if it has something to do with your water.  Here I get great Great Lakes water- mine is from Lake Huron.  Does your municipality add too much chlorine to the water?  Other chemicals?

 

Keep us posted on the ongoing saga, love to know what is causing your issues...

 

[brucelucenta]

I have had my LG made machine for over 4 years now. I replaced a 1998 or so Maytag set with them. I really can't say I've had any problems with laundering anything. It did take getting used to, since it was a completely different kind of washer and takes at least 3 or 4 times longer than the Maytag did for a load of clothes. But the load is much bigger and I can use the steam treat option to nearly boil greasy or really dirty items, which I frequently do with sheets, towels and whites. I have not had any pilling that I can see now and with a top load washer I did have some pilling of wool socks and such. I think that load separation has much to do with pilling too. I seem to have less wear on my clothes caused by the washer now too. How much wear can you cause by tumbling anyway? I just really haven't had a problem and have been quite happy with this set. Fast as the washer spins, it takes little time in the dryer now. The only thing I sort of wish I had on this machine is a slightly higher water level. I know I could change it to be higher, but it is stacked and I would have to have help removing the dryer long enough to adjust the water level control, so I have left it alone. If I really need a higher level, I just use the Bulky/Bedding setting and after the cycle, spin it on the highest speed to remove as much water as possible.

 

[rolls_rapide]

Care Labels on garments

Those have been dumbed-down too!

Recently, I purchased a few cheap cotton towels. White, I might add.

The labels on those towels says temperature of 40 deg C, with a 'broken bar' underneath the wash-tub symbol, equating to the Woollens programme! There is hardly any agitation on that cycle. No way will I be doing that.

I can remember when Horrockses towels and Marks & Spencer towels had 'washcode 2 (cottons), at 60 deg C'.

My parents's current Christy towels have labels stating wash as Cottons at 40 deg C.

So, no - take modern labelling with a shovelful of salt. I'll continue to wash cotton towels as you would expect to wash cottons - on the Cottons programme which has normal agitation.

And I admit, with a decent powder detergent, it is perfectly possible to wash at 40 deg C and still end up with clean clothing.

 

[earthling177]

I think the main idea here, which is also Mendelson's complaint in her Home Comforts book, is that labels *used* to be the harshest safe cleaning process for the garment, thus t-shirts, towels, jeans etc used to just say "machine wash and dry" or even "machine wash hot, tumble dry hot" and that was it, to now they are covering their asses and saying "machine wash gentle cycle cold, dry flat", which is basically not only wrong, it's just slightly less wrong than the other folks that print "dry clean only" for the same garments.

And I understand me, as a man, belong to a privileged slice of the population: I *know* my measurements, *all* I have to do is buy t-shirts, pants, shirts etc to my measurements, I don't even have to try them on. And there are places that do *not* make clothes properly, they *should* be preshrinking the fabric, then making the garment, they instead buy fabric and make the garment that will then during the first 2-3 washes shrink to fit the measurements.

People who buy garments like dresses, which say "size 6" are out of luck -- to begin with, they may be size 6 on that label, size 4 on the next, size 8 for a third brand, and when they try the garment it fits in the store, if they shrink after washing it will be more than just annoying.

The problem really is, that if the fabric has not been pre-shrunk, you can kiss garment stability goodbye, because it *will* shrink, it may take 6 washings, but no matter what you do, cold wash, dry flat under away from sun etc, it does not matter, natural fabrics shrink it's what they do. The only good way to deal with it properly is to at some point wash it in very hot water and dry on hot too, then it's usually stable.

 

[dreamclean]

Small world David lol. I was surprised the author personally replied to you, she had to have been a little embarrassed. If a consumer watchdog group that probably employs scientists can't even get it right I question the major players. There's a total disconnect between the washer manufacturers and the detergent makers. Too much margin for error. 1.6 oz for Persil vs 2 tsp? They're just insanely concentrated. CR should be looking into that...And why aren't consumers being told upfront that detergent residue is #1 cause of machine failure? LG makes Tub Clean sound optional when it's absolutely critical to keep the machine functioning properly.

Talking about this with my friend who visited last week, she had noticed lots of suds in her Kenmore when there shouldn't have been. When we went into the subject of pilling, she looks down at her shirt and asks me if it's pilled. It was just as bad as some of mine, and she said she hadn't even worn it that much. I just tried Method 8X concentrated-- two squirts and my clothes still came out crunchy, but not as bad as others. So I feel lucky I found Heritage Park (by a fluke) that's actually formulated to rinse completely...

As for the public water, nothing out of the ordinary. You don't smell chlorine when showering like you might in other places. It does seem softer-- I used to be on well-water which was hard.

I get it about the care label and temperatures. Towels and sheets can handle a lot. But the other fabrics of today are way more delicate than they used to be, at least as far as women's garments go. I buy all of my clothes online from "higher end" places or eBay. Pretty much everything is so thin, it makes normal vintage clothes look and feel like workwear. I've gotten so used to the airy clothing it feels strange to wear something thick. But we have pretty mild weather most of the time so I don't have to wear bulky things. I avoid dry cleaners like the plague...even the best one in town ruined a top. That's why I had no problem getting the Sidekick for the delicates.

If we are able to check the water levels or reset them to factory settings who knows, this could change everything. If Whirlpool's Tub Clean does that automatically, it can't be all that uncommon. A milder detergent could also be a game changer. I'll let you know

 

[rolls_rapide]

Rinsing / poor rinsing

Have you considered using 'Rosalie's Zero Suds'?

http://www.zerosuds.com/

 

[dreamclean]

Omg yes

The About Us page says it all...And he's the founder of this site? Jon? Haven't tried but it's next.

"In his research, Jon learned from experts in the appliance industry that customers were very unhappy with the current crop of detergents on the market. The complaint was that the detergents were over-sudsing in the new low-water-use machines, not rinsing out clothes properly, and causing electronic boards to burn out. The repairs were frequent and expensive and not covered under warranty, as it was considered “operator error.”

He discovered a well-known industry secret -Suds DO NOT clean clothes! This was true even back in your grandmother’s day. This is especially true since today’s machines struggle to rinse the suds out, and the suds bind up the cleaning agents! Today suds get in the way of cleaning!

Another major problem: in order to avoid too many suds in the new machines, consumers cut back on the amount of detergent they were using. The outcome has been poor cleaning and rinsing, with some machines becoming toxic with residue build-up. As evidence, on the market now are products designed just to clean your washing machine! The Department of Energy mandated low water use, but the detergent industry has had difficulty responding to new washer technology."

 

[richimaor]

Pilling

The theory that pilling is caused by dry tumbling inside the washer could be true (among other factors), I have had a Kenmore 417 front load washer for 13 years and I've never had issues with pilling in my clothes; I think part of this is the fact that this machine has an old schooled timer and starts dispensing water in the moment you start the machine by pulling the timer knob so clothes never tumble dry, when washer is started it puts in a default amount of water (which is a considerable amount for a front loader, maybe around a gallon or more), then the washer starts tumbling and sensing the load, and yes, dispenses more water; load gets really wet and you still have a considerable amount of water inside the drum, it makes a spray rinse between main wash and first rinse; this washer makes 3 rinses in permanent press and 4 in regular cycle (without extra rinse option) so clothes rinse up pretty well even is you use a little bit more detergent than you should. This machines are known for bad bearings and early spider issues but I've never had any of this problems in almost 14 years of work. So back to the point... I really support the theory of less water leads to more pilling in clothes.

 

[lordkenmore]

The About Us page says it all...And he's the founder of this site? Jon?

 

I have not been around here since the start of the site, but my understanding is that the person who started this website was Robert/Unimatic1140. He is the webmaster, and the person who does the coding now, at least.


 

But there were apparently very early members here, and there was some history before this site on (IIRC) some Yahoo group. Either of which might easily include the Jon behind Rosalie's.

 

[dreamclean]

Turning a blind eye.

I didn't mention it before but it's definately crossed my mind...It says right there that the industry KNOWS that suds do not clean clothes. Sure, it's partly cultural, Americans associate clean with suds. We're used to seeing ads with bubbles because it takes an abstract concept and makes it tangible. And you know the eggheads over at LG and the like must know that the detergent isn't rinsing adequately so it clogs up the machines etc. Is there some kind of complicity going on, or at least a lazy form of planned obsolescence? Why didn't CR have a rinse test after all these years? And it took someone on Facebook to point this out? Can't help but wonder if they know too.

 

[lordkenmore]

Sure, it's partly cultural, Americans associate clean with suds.

 

Yes.

 

I've heard that at least some early versions of laundry detergents (including IIRC Tide) were low sudsing. But they didn't sell well because people expected to see suds. So...there was reformulation just to add suds.

 

Indeed, I remember hearing someone in my family--who had a science background--even talk about suds being unnecessary except for marketing.

 

What I can't understand now is why modern detergents continue to be so sudsy. OK, maybe there is a vision of providing a top load detergent for Grandma, who using the top load washer she bought in 1957... But front load washers have long since moved from novelty to routine appliance...and yet the detergents often seem to act like: it's still 1950, and we need to convince people detergent is good as soap!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dreamclean]

Sooo for Americans to switch to no suds it's going to involve a total re-education about how sudsing detergents actually work in HE machines...but sounds like they never worked that great anyway! It's like if you watch Shark Tank, they will pass on investing in a product just because the learning curve is too steep for the average consumer. Just shows you how advertising has deeply brainwashed us for generations in America. I'm going to look up old print ads now.

But maybe it's also just because...bubbles are fun! Who doesn't love bubbles!

 

[dreamclean]

Tiny diamonds

This ad is funny.

 

[foraloysius]

A layer of suds in a frontloader is actually really bad. It cushions the wash action, so the cleaning effect is less. At the same time it's a sign one is using too much detergent, which may lead to more wear on the clothes.

 

[dreamclean]

Dirty detergents

Yeah you guys know that but 99.9% of HE users here have no clue. We expect to see some at different points of the cycle since they're "low sudsing." With some detergents you don't have to overdo it or come even close to see the suds, and that's on the makers themselves.

I used Method 8X just for one load (back to Amazon it goes) and I am astonished at how different the experience is AFTER the wash. My clothes are suddenly a magnet for odors and soil. I dropped a tiny bit of food on some pants, as I sometimes do, and the next day I was wearing the pants and actually smelled the food odor (which I had cleaned up). It reeeked. I put on another pair and it smelled like the scented body lotion that I use everyday. I've never, ever had my clothes pick up fragrance like that. Since the makers aren't required to list ingredients, I believe it must be due to silicones or something. Whatever it was, when I did the viscosity test on my hands it too left a slick (so did Persil, Arm and Hammer, but not Tide Free or Ms Meyers). This slick is considered normal, but I think it's causing laundry to get even dirtier and smellier than it would otherwise.

 

[lordkenmore]

I tried Method within the last 5 years or so. Target had small sample bottles (5 loads or whatever). I can't recall any complaints with clothes, but I did have issue with some sort of weird, slick feeling buildup on the washer tub. I can't say it was Method's fault...but the timing does suggest that Method was at least a cause. The problem went away with using other detergents.

 

[dreamclean]

Very interesting results just with a sample!

I know this isn't the first time this happened, it was many years ago but I distinctly remember having this same problem with another brand. I'm going to redo this load. Water bill is probably going to be crazy this month

 

[lordkenmore]

I'm going to redo this load.

Ah, the "fun" of rewashing!

 

I've had to do that. The most memorable time was with some Tide sample (about 10 years ago) that left an incredibly strong scent on the laundry. It was so oppressive that I ended up rewashing a good chunk of the load for no other reason than getting rid of the Tide smell.