Glimpses of the future or gimmicks that'll fade into obscurity?

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joeekaitis

joeekaitis

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I'm posting this here because it's as much about vintage as modern dishwashers.

Wash tubes, spinning racks, "water blades" and other self-styled "dishwasher of the future" designs have come and gone, but the good ol' spray arm soldiers on.

Kenmore and Frigidaire aren't abandoning it but two modifications of the lower spray arm in their Elite and Gallery dishwashers respectively have an air of gimmickry, given that most Consumer Reports "Best Buy" rated models earn their blue check-marks without 'em.

Kenmore calls theirs 360 PowerWash Technology and your humble observer can already see a potential point-of-failure. That exposed gear drive is just waiting to be jammed by, say, an overlooked pinto bean, stopping the magic motion and resulting in a load you have to wash again.

Not to be out-gimmicked, er, uh, outdone, Frigidaire offers <a href="" target=new> Orbit Clean<a>. The blue spinner sprayer appears to be pressure-driven, but that means it would be the first part to feel the effect of a pressure drop due to motor aging or impeller wear.

Both designs overlook the fact that water, like sound, ricochets all around. Load any dishwasher properly and every load comes out sparkling. They're solutions in search of a problem.

Like the designs mentioned in the first paragraph, wait 10 years and see if any become commonplace through reverse engineering or as patents expire. My prediction: they'll all have been replaced by something else in top-o'-the-line models and they still won't clean any better.
 
Both of those could be jammed by a fallen utensil!They are interesting to watch.Again the doors on the machines should be transparent so you could be entertained.and you would be able to see if the sprayers were jammed by a pinto bean or untensil.
 
@tolivac

Sadly, having a window in the dishwasher just means people have to look at a grungy window before the machine is operating (which could be days for some people!)

Here's a gimmick that will fade away - those magnetic water softeners! They work about as well as a laundry ball (i.e. a FAILURE!) Those things have a max efficiency of about 50%, so they work, but they don't. They keep scale off your pipes and surfaces, but don't stop it in your hot water system.
Honestly, how magnets can actually change the structure of water absolutely beats me!
 
A gimmick returns

Frigidaire's Orbit Clean is just the same gimmick featured by the European Electrolux and Zanussi's dishwasher range and is named FlexiSpray: . I know that Electrolux own Frigidaire in the US, but according to me Orbit Clean/FlexiSpray is just a redisign of the washing technology of the "dynamic" dishwashers produced by Zanussi in the 60s (I have something on that, I'll try to post some scans here later).
If I lived in the US and had to buy a new dishwasher, I'd go for a Kenmore 360 PowerWash!!
Ivan
 
If you think that these wash systems could be damaged by a fallen utensil, you should have been around in the 50s when cutlery could fall into a Bakelite impeller and take out a wing or a chunk out of the hub that kept water away from the gravity drain opening. In either case, the machine was out of commission. If it was not stopped quickly, the unbalanced load on the motor shaft could spell bigger problems.
 
Yes,I could understand how an impellor dishwasher could be damaged by a utensil or something falling into the impeller.The blade breaks,sending the impeller out of balance-hard on the motor bearings-severe vibration damaging other equipment in the machine,and the load,-and if the machine is portable-could envision it walking across the floor.built in-vibrating the cabinets causing contents to fall.I wouldn't think the wash spray mechanisms in those KN and Frigidaire machines being damaged by something falling into them-they just won't work properly.And the dishes would still probably be dirty.Wouldn't the window in the machine self clean as the dishwasher works-maybe Robert has the answer for this-since he put windows in the doors of some of his dishwashers to see the washing actions.
As a child-do remember an impeller style portable GE dishwasher-we were lucky in not having anything fall into the propeller.Then I wonder for dishwashers that need a new impeller---maybe an outboard motor propeller would work if it could fit the motor shaft?Something I guess to try if you can't get the orig impeller.
the only thing the magnetic water treatment devices-filter out any iron or steel particles in the water?Only use I could think of for them-and if your water has those-better call the water company or check your plumbing!
 
A gimmick returns

I had a SMEG dishwasher for a couple of years (2000 - 2002) which had an apparently similar arrangement to both of these with an extra spray attached to one end of the lower wash arm - frankly I did not see much difference - it did not seem much better than the 1994 Indesit which preceeded it

Al
 
I currently have a SMEG with the orbital system and an Indesit without, the SMEG definitely cleans much better than the Indesit machine so at least in my opinion it's not a complete gimmick!

The difference is not as visible in the corners as it is on the sides of tall pans!
 
I was particularly struck by the language used in the video. It "blasts" dishes with water? The video showed what looked to be a very gentle rain shower! Now, a blast of water would be the single spray arm of a KDS-16. Heck, even the WP/KM Power Clean/Ultra Wash was a blast compared to what I saw in that video.
 
I'm with kenmore71

It is an interesting concept - didn't Frigidaire have a similar system in the 70's?

In the video demonstrations I have seen, there are two problems with the 360 power wash. A) there is not enough pressure/velocity to scour dishes (all it will do is mist and soak them). B) the entire spray arm moves far too quickly (a moving spray arm on yet another moving spray arm means the weak spray never has period where it is "scrubbing" a surface). These machines are about as effective as getting your fingertips wet and flinging water at your dishes. Sure, if the water is hot enough and you flick long enough, you will be able to rinse some residues away - but you aren't going to clean really dirty things that way.
 
I'm suddenly reminded of an Episode of "Home Improvement" where Tim Allen tries to soup up his dishwasher and fails miserably at it.

These systems would work so much better if they moved so much more water.
 
not new technology

Mark, you are so right, that little gentle rainshower from the anemic new motors is laughable in comparison with the typhoon force blasting from a vintage KitchenAid or Maytag Reverse Rack!!

As far as lower spray arms not rotating in a purely circular manner, that is about 30 year old technology.

GE's Multi-Orbit wash arm came out in the early 80's. In the early 90's they had a variation called the Smart Wash arm which had smaller independent little wash arms at the end of the main arm.

It seems the multi-orbit designs are for better coverage and have little to do with actual scrubbing ability. Water pressure ("force") and volume play the largest role in scrubbability.

The anemic little rainshower, I saw in both videos, explains why a 30 year old GE, Maytag or KitchenAid can do in 45 minutes, what many modern machines can't do in 3 hours.

If you have a big dinner party, you could have three loads done in, let's say a GE Multi-Orbit 2800, in less time than you could do one load in many of these toy-motored modern machines. I would step out on a limb and say odds are the pots and pans would be a lot cleaner, too.

If your modern machine was also one of the newer ones without a built-in food disposer, you would also have a pile of garbage in the bottom of the machine when the cycle is done. It's a great feeling to know that every drop of water, that washed and rinsed the dishes you eat off of, was filtered through garbage.

I thought technology was supposed to move forward, not backward.
 
What you all are missing is that when you use so little water, you can't use a powerful pump. If you take in to account that a good portion of the water is going to be in the air at any given time during a wash or rinse period, either going up into the racks or falling back down, there is not enough water in the sump to provide a powerful pump with enough water over the intake to enable it to supply a powerful spray constantly. This is the principle behind the WP built machines using that pulsing spray for the heavy soil spray section in their lower rack. It is only when the pump is off and all of the water is in the sump that there is enough water over the pump intake for the pump to start up and give a powerful blast.

I guess, in the end, we who remember when dishwashers did a powerful cleaning job are a vanishing minority. Many women believed the dishes had to be rinsed of all soil before being loaded, maybe to keep the machine clean, I don't know. Enough people grew up believing that so most modern dishwashers do not have to do more than they do, which is not much. They don't have to wash. They don't have to thoroughly rinse and most do a poor job of drying.
 
overpumping

Some, but not all, of the newer dishwashers actually use the same amount of water, per fill, as their older counterparts. The way some of the manufacturers have reduced water consumption is to have only 4 or sometimes just 3 water changes. I have a newer Maytag than does this.

So cases like these, there is no problem of overpumping the sump, there is as much water in the bottom of the tub as ever. So they have gone to these toy motor powered pumps not to stop overpumping, but to reduce power consumption, and get an Energy Star rating. Hence, you ge the tinkle shower, like you saw in the videos, as opposed to the hurricanic force power jets of the Maytag RR, the Whirlpool PowerClean module or the early Kitchen-Aids.

What it appears they have done, to make up (or attempted to make up) for these anemic water forces and lack of water changes, is to increase cycle times. For most machines I have looked at 2 to three hours seems the norm. Of course, we all have seen the dreaded new Whirlpools with the laughable overnight cycle that is still trying to finish your dinner dishes while you are eating breakfast.
 
With all this talk of dishwashers pissing on dishes lately, I should chime in and mention this about our lovely DishDrawer (and probably annoy you all some more).

No sump area for the recirc water, it just sucks everything thru the filter plate and into the impeller (I think, anyway!)
Despite the low water use for each fill (around 2.3L/.60US Gal), it still manages very decent performance in the shorter cycles. The normal cycle is around 1Hr 45min, heavy is around 10 minutes Longer, and Eco Normal (you can select Eco in any mode) is about 2Hr 10 mins.
Before the detergent bubbles up, you can hear some pretty serious spray power (especially in the lower drawers).

Attached is a link of a DishDrawer starting a normal cycle (Prewash). Not from me, but what I believe to be a fellow member of the forum here.
By the way, the amount of water use has decreased in recent years, as F&P have removed prewash from a number of cycles (on some models, on the Heavy has a Prewash, and may also have some extra rinses in-between it and the main wash).
From the video, you can see a fairly decent wash pressure - of course nothing in comparison to old GE Potscrubbers with Wash Towers, Maytag Reverse Racks, or even 1950's style Impeller and roto-rack models, but still pretty decent by todays standards, and WISPER QUIET!

 
Multi-Orbit Wash Arms Etc.

These are very sound ways of helping move water around inside a DW and past uses of this technolgy caused almost no service problems.

 

F&P dish drawers like all DWs ever made have sumps where the water collects as it renters the pump. And yes F&P DWs [ like all DWs ever made can do a good job cleaning dishes ] But they have one of the worst sump traps of any DW currently made in that they collect almost all of the food particles and hold it in the machine for you to clean out. And of coerce all the water your dishes are rinsed with is pulled through this garbage.

 

I know of almost no DW made in the last 10 years that still fills with at least two gallons of water per fill. as a result manufacturers have had to slow down the pumps power because so much water would be in the air that the pump would surge and starve for water.

 

MT RR DWs actually moved very little water compared to almost all other US machines of the same time period. They used very fine hi pressure jets with good filtering to achieve great cleaning. But if your ever saw one running next to a KA or WP there was no comparison in over all water movement.

 

To me the biggest gimmick today is the WP built DW with the dedicated Turbo-Zone area in the back of the lower rack or the dedicated silver-ware shower. The last thing I want to worry about when loading a DW is trying to put ONE very dirty item in a particular spot. I want to be able to load the machine in the most sensible way and get every thing clean, NOT just one really dirty item. When I make a large meal I often have at least a half dozen very dirty utensils from the cook-top or oven to deal with.
 
@combo52

Well, the 2007 Electrolux/Dishlex we had used a two stage filter, once again running water thru both when dirty. I wouldn't say self cleaning filters or food disposal are common in the low-mid range machines here. No-one has food disposal (I get the feelings governments may be the cause of this), and no-one can be stuffed unblocking pipes, so the water is filtered, and the filter works incredibly well.

I'm not sure that the dish drawer uses the kidney shaped filter during wash, as the pipe coming off is used for the drain, and in that way, no water would get filtered. It has to go thru the filter plate and directly the the impeller (under wash arm), or go thru the filter plate, then go underneath it thru the kidney filter and into the drain/recirc sump.
However those Kiwi's came up with it, I don't know. But I do know that i've only ever found redeposited stuff when there are eggs involved (lots of egg on spatulas, etc, which don't clean in that machine for whatever reasons). Otherwise, everything we've ever chucked at when (when loaded properly), has come out sparkling. ANd a lot of this really dirty stuff was not pre-rinsed and barely scraped, but we still used the normal or normal eco cycle...
 
Oops, forgot something.

Never seen a dishwasher with food disposal, not the 1302 Asko, not in a dishlex. I don't think that Food/Garbage Disposal systems on the sink are even legal in this country (safety hazard - i.e. Electrocution, loss of finger etc). Although, I'm sure someone will pick me up on that...

So, at least in Australia, dishwashers which full water thru "yucky filters" still reign king (from seeing various Dishlex, LG, F&P, Baumatic, Westinghouse machines at stores).

So How do self cleaning filters work? Do they use 4L of water to flush away dirt at the end of wash, 1st rinse, 2nd rinse etc?
 
When it takes 90-140 minutes to wash the dishes, conserving water etc etc.. what is really happening is the dishes are getting an extended soak cycle. Most anything will wash away pretty easily after it's been wet for that length of time.
 
@petek

Yes, you are very right about that. So are Miele's and Askos of today really that good, or are they made to soak the dishes?

I've opened some machines just after they start (including our dish-drawer). Most of the "knerr" and stuff on the plates is usually in the water around 2-3 minutes into the cycle, but some grease is left on the plates.

I really think the amount of time taken is in relation to water heating, allowing enzymes in detergent to attack, etc. The dishwasher might be capable of washing in 1hr or less, but modern detergents and their "environmentally friendly" formulae cap the washer's ability to operate.
 
disposers

washer111

That's interesting about garbage diposals not being common your country. It might be interesting to do a web search of your local laws. It may be that they are not illegal, but just an uncommon appliance.

If they are illegal, it might be due to some politician's idea that they couldt overtax the sewage system. They were actually invented to cut down on disease tranmission by putting garbage down the drain that would otherwise attract and be a breeding ground for vermin (rodents, maggots, flies, bacteria)
in trash cans and dump grounds.

I doubt if it is a safety concern that would make them illegal. I would step out on a limb and say disposers are most likely one of the safest appliances ever made. A common misconception is that there are spinning blades in the grind chamber, which there are not.

If you look inside a unit, you'll see a turntable, and on the periphery of the turntable, are impellers. The cutting edges are stationary and mounted around the lower circumference of the grind chamber.

Let's say you drop a bananna peel in. It hits the turntable and centrifugal force takes it on a little ride to the impeller (which is blunt, no sharpness) and holds it against the cutters which shred it as it goes around.

Kinda like if you hade a bunch of people on a merry-go-round and turned up the rpm to 1725. the people would go flying off at the periphery. Think of the horses around the edge of the merry-go-round as impellers. (sometimes impellers are fixed, and are little more than protrusions in the turntable, sometimes they swivel to help avoid jams.)

You could stick your finger in an operating disposal and touch the center of the rotating turntable, with no danger. Not that I would recommend it, because if you got off center you might get nicked by a rind flipper or the edge of the impeller.

The point is, I have seen other people who think disposers are dangerous. My cousin's wife would not allow the builder to put one in their home as she was afraid someone would lose a hand. If you wanted to hurt yourself in a disposer, you would actually have to make an effort to do so. If someone is really that afraid, they make "batch-feed" models which only start when you place the cover in the sink opening.

Electrocution?? No more than any appliance that uses electricity and water. Your washer, dishwasher, whirlpool tub, etc. In a dishwasher and hot water tank you even have an heating electrically charged heating element immersed in water.

Disposers must be grounded. And in houses with metal plumbing you have even a third level of safety (electrical neutral first level, ground wire second level and grounded metal plumbing third level.)

Even if all three levels failed you yourself would have to be ground to make the current flow through you if there should be an electrical fault.

Check you local codes and see if disposers are legal. If not, get one. You will love it, I guarantee!!!
 
It may be that they are not illegal, but just an uncommon ap

In fact, in some parts of Europe they were illegal till some years ago.
France and Italy are two examples!
In Italy they were illegal since 2003 if I recall correctly and somewhere are still illegal in France!
Because of the "strain" they put on the sewage system
 
@dj-gabrielle

Heres the thing. My locality uses treated sewage to water 3 local parks (all next to each other).

We have no storm-water drains, but during wet weather those irrigation systems run constantly - why? Since our sewer treatment is around 4/5 small ponds, and the system cannot support our growing area well. So garbage disposal may be illegal here, since it would add lots of pressure on older plumbing systems within the area.

Our house has issues with plumbing too, there are 2 separate connections to the junction box feed (our house and some others share a common connection to the main sewer. One of these connectors from the bathrooms (w/ toilets, showers and water softener drain connected) gets blocked, since the softener drain was filled with dirt, and roots are down there. The other is the kitchen drain, with the washer connected downstream a little.

We know of people in other countries who used them, and the wives husbands refused to clean the drains (which blocked frequently), and would instead call plumbers. Be interesting to see if drain-o or whatever would clear that...
 
Same story here. Garbage disposals can't be bought anywhere. I only know of one online retailer that sells them here - along with trash compactors.
 
drain clogs

In general, Disposers do not cause drain clogs, but poor plumbing does.

In the U.S., I must say we do have good plumbing codes, and any home built in the last 30 to 40 years will not experience any clogs from a food waste disposer unless the plumber did something stupid.

Modern plumbing uses 1 and a 1/2 inch drain pipes under the sink, 2 inches for the main branch lines and 4 inch trunk lines. With the force that diposers shove waste through the line, trust me, there will not be a clog.

The only exception I have seen, once again is due to plumber stupidity (or I should say cheapness.)

I have bought two new home where the plumber, hired by the builder, used a disposer "T" pipe. If you go to a home improvement store you can often find these in a disposer installation kit, as they are designed for the homeowner who is basically ignorant of plumbing methods.

It is a tailpipe that is under one side of the sink that has an opening on the side so you can pipe a disposer straight into it from the other side of the sink.

If you look inside of this pipe, you will see a deflector. So when the waste goes into the pipe from the disposal, it is immediately forced to make a 90 degree turn and shoot down the drain. You only have a 1 1/2 inch pipe and the deflector forces the wastes to make an immediate 90 degree turn in only half of that space. So you are forcing large volumes of food waste to make an instant 90 degree turn in only a 3/4 inch opening.

Needless to say, this is the point of clogging...especially with fibrous waste. It's bad enough for a consumer to be stupid enough to use one of these "drain pipes for idiots", but there is no excuse for a professional to use one.

Oftentimes, builders hire plumbers who are the cheapest. A disposer "T" saves the plumber maybe a couple of dollars (max) of piping and a lot of time. So they do the quickest, cheapest, easiest thing they can then do on to the next job.

Sad, isn't it.

The other sad thing is when they do this, they have to mount the disposer so the
waste pipe exits from the side. Since disposer are made, by the manufacturer with the exit pipe in the rear of the machine, the plmber has to rotate the disposer forty-five degrees.

So when you look under the sink, it's an ugly and unprofessional sight. You are not looking at the front of the machine, which was designed to face out. You are looking at an ugly sight of a machine whose logo can't be read and looking at a waste piple that should be hidden and now is in full view, sticking straight out the side of the machine.

So when the homeowner gets a clog, and they most likely will. they blame the disposer. It has nothing to do with the disposer it is due to human stupidity of the plumber or ignorant homeowner that chose the cheap, unprofessional and utterly assinine way to mount a precision piece of equipment. Most manufacturer's literature, that I have seen, specifically says NOT to mount their disposal in that manner.

If a person's I.Q. is not high enough to realize that a sharp 90 turn in a constricted environment is likely to cause problems, they are not intelligent enough to own a disposer.

They should just buy a pig and keep it outside their back door and throw scraps to it. Since someone stupid enough to have a disposer mounted that way is stupid enough to rinse dishes before putting them in a dishwasher, they might as well lay their soiled dishes on the ground and let the pig lick them before loading them into the dishwasher. It would save a lot of water.

Even better, they can put the dishes right back into the cabinet after the pig licks them clean. This would be very "green" and conserve our natural resources. And the pig might, just might, meet our government's Energy Star requirements.

Okay, I am just having a little fun with sarcasm and exaggeration today. But it is somewhat of a pet peeve of mine (as you probably noticed) to have people blame an appliance when the problem actually lies with the installer or user.
 
Garbage disposals are legal in Australia

Although, I wouldn't be surprised if some councils have considered banning them on the advice of over-zealous environmentalists.

I have seen them in many homes and upmarket units during the 80s and 90s. A lot of new high rise units here in Sydney, up in Brisbane and in Cairns have them as well. My parents had KitchenAid disposal put in the first house they bought in Sydney during the early 1980s and my home in Cairns came with a disposal as well.

They are particularly useful in flats to dispose of food waste that would otherwise stink out the communal trash and attract vermin (think hot summer months and tropical heat). It is also far more preferable to send food waste through a garbage disposal than to flush it down the toilet, which a lot of people do (apart from all kinds of other stuff). That is why I don't understand the comment regarding sewage treatment facilities being overloaded because of garbage disposals; it makes no sense.

Twenty years ago one could buy GE, KitchenAid and Insikerator disposals. Now it's only Insinkerator. Maybe they are the only company interested in manufacturing their product for export. I am not aware of garbage disposals being manufactured in Europe or Asia and other US companies don't seem interested in selling them in Australia.

They are expensive. The cheapest starts at $400 and the ToL costs over a thousand dollars; not including installation costs. For a first home buyer or owner-builder it's probably not a justifiable expense or priority unless they are buying an older house that already has one.
 

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