I know from experience that electric stoves are not good to have when the power goes out since there was no way for me to cook or to heat up any food on thanksgiving since the power went out (was without power for 2 days) and ended up having to get takeout food on thanksgiving day since there was no way for me to heat up or to cook anything for 2 days. If I had a gas stove, the story would have been very different since I would have been able to heat up and cook some food on thanksgiving even if it meant there would be no turkey.
Good-Bye To Gas Kitchen, Hot Water & Heating & Laundry Appliances In NYC
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If there is no power for 2 days, there won't be any refrigeration either.
And I'm not you, but anything that couldn't be eaten cold and that needs cooking or reheating that has been without refrigeration for 2 days, I wouldn't eat anymore even if I was abled to heat it up.
Maybe except for eggs.
But if the power went out for more than 24h I would have different issues all together, probably.
And I'm not you, but anything that couldn't be eaten cold and that needs cooking or reheating that has been without refrigeration for 2 days, I wouldn't eat anymore even if I was abled to heat it up.
Maybe except for eggs.
But if the power went out for more than 24h I would have different issues all together, probably.
keith
Well-known member
Most underground gas lines leak, not some, most.
So not 100% efficient even if you just look at transfer. There’s pumping and pressurizing stations because of the friction losses dropping pressure through the piping network, and all of the leaks also drop pressure along the way (very very common, most leaks are ignored as they don’t pose a danger, but unburnt hydrocarbons are a major pollutant) hence the need to repress Irish the lines. And those places release LOTS of unburied hydrocarbons when they purge (we’re having major problems in MA with a pumping station).
Resistive heat is 100% efficient at converting electric energy into BTU’s to heat the room, heat pumps can be over 250% efficient (more BTU’s out than energy in), the best mod/con gas systems are 90% or so in actual application, and still require electricity on top of that to operate, and usually do purge unburnt hydrocarbons during their ‘pre-purge’ before ignition.
And no, electrical transmission isn’t a 20% loss. 5% on a 25KVA transmission line is pretty accurate.
Full Disclosure: I have oil heat, and hot water, which is only 85% efficient. So I’m not beating the drum because I have electric heat, but facts are facts.
So not 100% efficient even if you just look at transfer. There’s pumping and pressurizing stations because of the friction losses dropping pressure through the piping network, and all of the leaks also drop pressure along the way (very very common, most leaks are ignored as they don’t pose a danger, but unburnt hydrocarbons are a major pollutant) hence the need to repress Irish the lines. And those places release LOTS of unburied hydrocarbons when they purge (we’re having major problems in MA with a pumping station).
Resistive heat is 100% efficient at converting electric energy into BTU’s to heat the room, heat pumps can be over 250% efficient (more BTU’s out than energy in), the best mod/con gas systems are 90% or so in actual application, and still require electricity on top of that to operate, and usually do purge unburnt hydrocarbons during their ‘pre-purge’ before ignition.
And no, electrical transmission isn’t a 20% loss. 5% on a 25KVA transmission line is pretty accurate.
Full Disclosure: I have oil heat, and hot water, which is only 85% efficient. So I’m not beating the drum because I have electric heat, but facts are facts.
Reply #21
Whatever floats your boat, but gas stoves are handy when the power goes out.
I guess people in Europe aren’t familiar with gas stoves hence why many are against them since everyone appears to be too worried about energy in Europe.
Whatever floats your boat, but gas stoves are handy when the power goes out.
I guess people in Europe aren’t familiar with gas stoves hence why many are against them since everyone appears to be too worried about energy in Europe.
I use a propane Camp stove when the power goes out. A few years ago we were without power for 4.5 days. I used the propane camp stove to cook, heat water for tea/coffee, dishes, bathing out of the bathroom sink. Did I like it? Not especially, but we got thru it just fine for a few days.
When we moved to an AEH 27 years ago we knew we’d have to prepare for possible power outages, of which thankfully there have been few. The 4.5 day incident without power was due indirectly from historical wildfires brought on by Climate Change. So I say lets try to slow down/stop the things we do that cause Climate Change. Its not hard to do.
Eddie
When we moved to an AEH 27 years ago we knew we’d have to prepare for possible power outages, of which thankfully there have been few. The 4.5 day incident without power was due indirectly from historical wildfires brought on by Climate Change. So I say lets try to slow down/stop the things we do that cause Climate Change. Its not hard to do.
Eddie
keith
Well-known member
Outdoor grill for power outages
That’s what we did before we got a generator. Easy enough, even in winter.
That’s what we did before we got a generator. Easy enough, even in winter.
Reply #24
If you really want to know what’s causing all these wildfires in California, it is poor management of the forests and not disposing of the dead vegetation/trees. Since that’s been building up in the forests here for decades, it serves as kindling when a fire starts and that’s what my father told me since he was a firefighter for the state of California for 30 years and even had to fight some of those fires over the years.
If you really want to know what’s causing all these wildfires in California, it is poor management of the forests and not disposing of the dead vegetation/trees. Since that’s been building up in the forests here for decades, it serves as kindling when a fire starts and that’s what my father told me since he was a firefighter for the state of California for 30 years and even had to fight some of those fires over the years.
bradfordwhite
Well-known member
Mixed feelings. I can understand eliminating gas long term, but we are not there yet with cost efficient replacements. I'd loose my gas cooktop in an instance if induction was more affordable. But I'd be hard pressed to drop my 90%+ gas furnace - even with my low electric rate in comparison to elsewhere. I use Time of day and evenings are at $.07, and peak winter is $.10, but with that rate I'd be paying much more with electric heat and still not reducing CO2 by much -if at all.
I'm sure over time there will be great improvement in various tech to replace gas heating, but at the moment gas is still the cheapest way to heat in my area.
I'm sure over time there will be great improvement in various tech to replace gas heating, but at the moment gas is still the cheapest way to heat in my area.
bradfordwhite
Well-known member
Cool facts for electric
The technology for solar panels, inverters, batteries, and charge controllers has improved and continues to
and the prices continue to come down.
Also, with LED lighting and high efficient appliances like TVs and computers that have come into use in the last 10-15 years; the amount of usage that Americans are using is declining. This is even in consideration of population growth. This decline in KWHs has been going on for about a decade now.
The best protection a person can buy? Not that gas powered generator that goes for several thousand dollars and depends on gas and constant maintenance.
Buy your own solar electric system kit. Doesn't need gas. Doesn't matter what the rate is for electric. Doesn't matter if the power lines are downed by a storm near by. And you can use it everyday.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1245291269...nt7B0tAGonBFDgHoy%2FMa7TlhItUn%2Becnt8jxw3iD%
The technology for solar panels, inverters, batteries, and charge controllers has improved and continues to
and the prices continue to come down.
Also, with LED lighting and high efficient appliances like TVs and computers that have come into use in the last 10-15 years; the amount of usage that Americans are using is declining. This is even in consideration of population growth. This decline in KWHs has been going on for about a decade now.
The best protection a person can buy? Not that gas powered generator that goes for several thousand dollars and depends on gas and constant maintenance.
Buy your own solar electric system kit. Doesn't need gas. Doesn't matter what the rate is for electric. Doesn't matter if the power lines are downed by a storm near by. And you can use it everyday.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1245291269...nt7B0tAGonBFDgHoy%2FMa7TlhItUn%2Becnt8jxw3iD%
As an eBay Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
norgeway
Well-known member
All this will do
In a cold climate like New York, will drive people back to burning wood or oil for heat far more polluting than gas, Silliest thing i have ever heard.
In a cold climate like New York, will drive people back to burning wood or oil for heat far more polluting than gas, Silliest thing i have ever heard.
Reply #30
Well said! People wouldn’t have to burn wood or oil, but coal as well and those fuels (mainly wood and coal) generate a lot of particulate pollution which isn’t good plus is a mess to clean up since it settles back down and will have to do more dusting around the house as well.
Well said! People wouldn’t have to burn wood or oil, but coal as well and those fuels (mainly wood and coal) generate a lot of particulate pollution which isn’t good plus is a mess to clean up since it settles back down and will have to do more dusting around the house as well.
bradfordwhite
Well-known member
OTHER gas appliance use costs.
The yearly costs of maintenance, repairing, and replacing can be expensive AND are to be added into your operating costs.
It seems like people mysteriously ignore those costs.
-----
SCOPE OF BILLING:
Regardless of the utility: water, electric, gas, etc. Consumers are not billed for leaking pipes and electric losses in the main lines outside their homes.
It's only usage AFTER the meter on or near your home that the billing is determined.
Discussing losses out in the streets for gas, electric, water is pointless.
The yearly costs of maintenance, repairing, and replacing can be expensive AND are to be added into your operating costs.
It seems like people mysteriously ignore those costs.
-----
SCOPE OF BILLING:
Regardless of the utility: water, electric, gas, etc. Consumers are not billed for leaking pipes and electric losses in the main lines outside their homes.
It's only usage AFTER the meter on or near your home that the billing is determined.
Discussing losses out in the streets for gas, electric, water is pointless.
bradfordwhite
Well-known member
More stability
People in the U.S., and other countries are also benefitting from electric utilities installing Tesla commercial size battery banks at power stations. These act to eliminate brown outs and black outs by providing battery back-up on a large scale.
Most people probably don't realize it but think of the last time you had a serious electric outage.
These also benefit our cel phone service, wired telephone, and internet services.
Before battery back up electric utilities had to constantly estimate how much power would be needed and how much they needed to add to the grid at any moment. This is what caused surges and brown-outs and damages electronic equipment.
It's not happening as much now.
https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-megapack-utility-scale-energy-storage
People in the U.S., and other countries are also benefitting from electric utilities installing Tesla commercial size battery banks at power stations. These act to eliminate brown outs and black outs by providing battery back-up on a large scale.
Most people probably don't realize it but think of the last time you had a serious electric outage.
These also benefit our cel phone service, wired telephone, and internet services.
Before battery back up electric utilities had to constantly estimate how much power would be needed and how much they needed to add to the grid at any moment. This is what caused surges and brown-outs and damages electronic equipment.
It's not happening as much now.
https://www.tesla.com/blog/introducing-megapack-utility-scale-energy-storage
26 years ago I moved in here, being 15 miles from the nearest city, I prepared in case the power went out, which it does several times a year. I have a gas stove that will work without power and 2 gas space heaters. I had a whole house generator installed 2 years ago and never looked back. Now everything from lights to my oil boiler always is on. People around here with heat pumps or electric heat are up the creek with no power and big bills when I am toasty warm and cooking for significantly less with propane and oil. And I am not going to change.
It's complicated, conflicted, etc.
What percent of NY city electricity is provided by thermal gas, coal, oil generation? When or will NYC's ban on new gas installations change that? Is it Maine or New Hampshire citizens who are fighting to prevent a new mega Hydro electric power line from Quebec bringing additional electric power to the US northeast? What percent of German electricity is still provided by coal and gas burning? The new Nordstream gas pipeline from Russia is under construction. What percent of residential electric heat pumps come from Southeast Asia and China on incredibly polluting bunker C oil burning ships? What is the average lifespan of those same heat pumps, minisplits etc? Where I live the gas utility has been giving rebates if you install a new 95% or above efficient gas furnace for the past few years. Just now the electric utility is offering rebates if you rip out your gas furnace and replace with 100 % heat pump heating. The happy family advertising shows minisplits. Does it make environmental sense to rip out the existing before it's useful lifespan is reached? Concrete is incredibly CO2 polluting, how clean is "Clean Hydro Electric” or solar or wind power really? Does carbon dioxide capture and storage really work? And for how long? I guess it wouldn't have to work as long as nuclear waste storage has to. And finally where I live,B.C. Canada the government owned electric utility giving rebates for us to replace gas heat with electric heat pumps is the same government encouraging LNG gas exports to S E Asia and the fuel used to condense the natural gas to liquid will most likely be by burning natural gas since it will be much cheaper than electricity since the tax royalties on the gas are small. This to me doesn't make much sense neither environmentally nor fiscally but then I am just an ordinary tax payer.
What percent of NY city electricity is provided by thermal gas, coal, oil generation? When or will NYC's ban on new gas installations change that? Is it Maine or New Hampshire citizens who are fighting to prevent a new mega Hydro electric power line from Quebec bringing additional electric power to the US northeast? What percent of German electricity is still provided by coal and gas burning? The new Nordstream gas pipeline from Russia is under construction. What percent of residential electric heat pumps come from Southeast Asia and China on incredibly polluting bunker C oil burning ships? What is the average lifespan of those same heat pumps, minisplits etc? Where I live the gas utility has been giving rebates if you install a new 95% or above efficient gas furnace for the past few years. Just now the electric utility is offering rebates if you rip out your gas furnace and replace with 100 % heat pump heating. The happy family advertising shows minisplits. Does it make environmental sense to rip out the existing before it's useful lifespan is reached? Concrete is incredibly CO2 polluting, how clean is "Clean Hydro Electric” or solar or wind power really? Does carbon dioxide capture and storage really work? And for how long? I guess it wouldn't have to work as long as nuclear waste storage has to. And finally where I live,B.C. Canada the government owned electric utility giving rebates for us to replace gas heat with electric heat pumps is the same government encouraging LNG gas exports to S E Asia and the fuel used to condense the natural gas to liquid will most likely be by burning natural gas since it will be much cheaper than electricity since the tax royalties on the gas are small. This to me doesn't make much sense neither environmentally nor fiscally but then I am just an ordinary tax payer.
Yes, it was Maine that voters overwhelmingly rejected Central Maine Powers transmission line from Quebec. Not because they did not want it but to send a message to Central Maine Power, who is the worst rated utility in the US. No doubt the power line will be built thru to Mass but the ratepayers sent their message that they are tired of being neglected and paying high rates while their shareholders laugh all the way to the bank.
I've used both gas and electric for cooking.
I much prefer gas, at least for range top burners.
As for earthquake hazards, it's my understanding that most if not all gas meters in residential structures in this area have built-in shutoff devices that are activated by shaking sufficient to break gas lines. On top of that, I keep (as advised) a gas shutoff wrench by the gas line where it enters the home. I also have a CO/gas alarm in the main living area of my home.
Electric is not necessarily safer. Look up: electrocution.
I much prefer gas, at least for range top burners.
As for earthquake hazards, it's my understanding that most if not all gas meters in residential structures in this area have built-in shutoff devices that are activated by shaking sufficient to break gas lines. On top of that, I keep (as advised) a gas shutoff wrench by the gas line where it enters the home. I also have a CO/gas alarm in the main living area of my home.
Electric is not necessarily safer. Look up: electrocution.
Reply #37
Most people assume electric is safer but many don’t consider the shock hazard from electricity especially if it’s 240 volts. Yes, natural gas can leak but that’s not very common for that to happen compared to people who get zapped from electricity.
Most people assume electric is safer but many don’t consider the shock hazard from electricity especially if it’s 240 volts. Yes, natural gas can leak but that’s not very common for that to happen compared to people who get zapped from electricity.
bradfordwhite
Well-known member
The NECode has required GFCI outlets or circuit breakers for certain vulnerable locations in all new wiring for quite a while now.
Of course a person can put one on every circuit in their home if you choose. It's money well spent.
More recent code changes now require Arc fault protection for most other circuits that are not already protected by a GFCI outlet or breaker.
Not only that but on many electric service poles outside homes, there are breakers that will trip in an emergency and some automatically reset themselves.
Since you're not familiar with such protective devices it might be a good idea to have an electrician visit your home to see what is needed to bring you home up to a safe standard.
If, for example, you still have a 1950 made 60 amp main panel with screw in fuses and typical unprotected circuits.... yeah, that is scary.
Of course a person can put one on every circuit in their home if you choose. It's money well spent.
More recent code changes now require Arc fault protection for most other circuits that are not already protected by a GFCI outlet or breaker.
Not only that but on many electric service poles outside homes, there are breakers that will trip in an emergency and some automatically reset themselves.
Since you're not familiar with such protective devices it might be a good idea to have an electrician visit your home to see what is needed to bring you home up to a safe standard.
If, for example, you still have a 1950 made 60 amp main panel with screw in fuses and typical unprotected circuits.... yeah, that is scary.
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