Help me to become more Eco Friendly

Automatic Washer - The world's coolest Washing Machines, Dryers and Dishwashers

Help Support :

I have to jump in here and support Jeff's opinion. The people who disagree with him so far are not living in the States, where our front loading washers are built vastly different than yours. They literally do use about only a cup of water per fill, and that is indeed disgusting as well as foolish. You guys are defending a type of front loader that does not exist here in the U.S.
 
> Whirlpool AMERICAN Toploader

Honest now, Robert: have you ever even set hands on a Speed Queen TL or classic Lady Kenmore?

Same question goes to Thomas.

Whirlpool has not always had a virtual monopoly on washing machines.

As for country bashing, that's pointless. America is slowly being converted into another European country: full of depressing homes, families living hand to mouth from paycheck to paycheck and walking around in stained underwear. Our middle class has all but disppeared thanks to "globalization".
 
Jeff
Here in Brazil, the famous Lady Kenmore design was used until early 90's, when Brastemp (Whirlpool's brand in Brazil) decide to launch the revolutionary Brastemp Mondial.

I know what you mean and I know american washers.

Right at this moment, I'm right in front my Affinity washer, waiting for it to finish the spin cycle (2 more minutes)

I know there are huge differences between american end european front loaders.

most people believes they use "1 cup" of water just because they can't see the water.
At same time, european front loaders can't be opened because the water level is above the door.

You MUST consider the american washers are bigger than europeans. our drums are deeper and our doors are higher.

That is the reason we can't see the water.
but the water is there and there is more water than in an european compact FL.

so... at this point, they are the same!
fill a HE FL without the clothes inside. You'll see the water level.

also, try to wash a normal load put a lot of coloured items and only 1 red item.
you'll see the rollover. (in a front loader, the rollover is horizontal)
all the parts of the clothes passes by the water.

it's the same as a shower... you can take a bath (top loader) or you can take a shower (HE front loader.)

Your body will be clean in both systems, but in a shower you'll spend less water.
 
Jeff...

What is this about?
I thought we were discussing "eco friendly", not xenophobia.
The same goes to you Robert.

No matter if we are north american, south american, european or asian.

Our planet is only one and we MUST fight togeter against our environment destruction...

Of course I disagree completelly with this stupid non HE top loaders being banned in a few years.

I think USA should do the same as Europe. First create a massive marketing and let the people free to choose the system they prefer.

Here in Brazil is like that. The manufacturers MUST offer HE products, but they can also offer non he models.

But the HE front loaders are becoming popular here in brazil because their prices are starting to be reduced.

If you use it according to the instructions manual and "relearn" how to do your laundry, the results will be AMAZING!

More than excellent results, when people see the water and electricity bills reducing, they start to love it and the famous "mouth-to-mouth" marketing begins.

There's nothing more efficient than a satisfied consumer...
They comment with the neighbours, the hairdresser, the friends. some of them buy the recommended HE washer, get the same result and comment to other people, and the endless chain reaction begins.

At Electrolux the designers and engineers respect the local legislation and the consumer preferences.
Of course americans would love an european front loader, but unfortunatelly the government does not allow this kind of washer.
So the washers are designed to be as efficient as possible and give the best results they can.
By the end of the party, the result is the same a an european FL.

If you still believe they use too less water, you can just reduce your load.
 
Thomas I think you have good intentions here but the fact remains that an adequate amount of water is needed to wash and rinse clothes, and there is indeed a big difference in the water levels of US and Euro machines -- the Euro machines use the right amount and here they do not.

There's no enviromental or energy savings when I have to wash and rewash and rewash a shirt because there is not enough water to flush out the odor. If it wasn't for me tricking out the pressure switch on my Frigidaire FL, I would have gotten rid of it long ago and gotten an old top loader. A washer which doesn't use enough water is absolutely useless to me.

People must be allowed to have choices. If manufacturers wish to set the nonexistent water levels as the default choice, fine, but we should be able to override that setting at any time according to our personal needs. I don't need fifty cycles and useless gimmicks -- I want water.
 
Modern european front loaders also have water levels which a

But the washing results are perfect in any machine I've used. I think the major problem with the US machines is that since people are so used to top loaders, the manufacturers have made front loaders using european water levels but much shorter wash times. My Whirlpool for example, uses 49l (roughly 13 US gallons) to wash a 5.5 (12lb) load and takes 2hrs 30mins to complete a cycle. The most energy efficient machine (an AEG) uses 47litres (about 12.5 US gallons) to wash 7kg (about 15lb). Another major issue is probably that some US front loaders don't have heaters, reducing wash quality. It dosent really have anything to do with drum capacity because the machine uses more water to compensate. After all, nowadays we too have 9kg (20lb) washers on the market and I havent heard any complaints about their wash results. On the other hand I don't think a top loader would produce poorer wash results than a euro front loader. It's just a different method of washing and requires different techniques to get good results.
 
takes 2hrs 30mins to complete a cycle

Matthew, thanks for that post. I was starting to think I was the crazy one in this discussion.

Even at its maximum wash time and water level, a cycle takes ~30 minutes in our SQ top loader.
 
Jeff..

Quote:
As for country bashing, that's pointless. America is slowly being converted into another European country: full of depressing homes, families living hand to mouth from paycheck to paycheck and walking around in stained underwear. Our middle class has all but disppeared thanks to "globalization".

That is a totally unfair, unjustified, rather nasty anti-European rant based on no facts and is not representative of European houses, living standards or lifestyles at all.

I really think you should chill out a bit, and also perhaps take a visit to Europe sometime. I can assure you we do not walk around in stained underwear, generally don't live hand-to-mouth, nor do we have depressing homes.

This was a discussion about how to be more eco-friendly, not some strange US vs European ranting session.

There were umpteen different types of washers in Europe in the 1950s and 60s, including large top loading agitators. The front loader became the de facto standard in Europe starting in the 1960s. It wasn't a case of anyone compelling consumers to move to that mode of washing, people preferred it for a whole variety of reasons and it wasn't necessarily for environmental reasons either. Nor were early front loaders all that efficient. They often filled up to half way up the door and used lots of hot water. People preferred them for a whole variety of reasons and that's why the became the standard here, not because someone declared that they ought to be. The market decided.

In most of Europe top loading machines were considered to be 'old fashioned' and were associated with labour-intensive semi-automatics from the 1930s to 1950s. Front loading machines very quickly became symbolic of fully automatic and truly 'set and forget'.

There was also a major design aesthetic shift in Europe after WWII when Bauhaus inspired modernist designs became highly fashionable in kitchens. This was the beginning of the modularised kitchen with fully built in or semi-integrated appliances throughout.

Front loaders allowed for tight integration of a washer (and dryer) under a kitchen counter, or in a stack.

European houses tend not to have basements, so the washer usually either lives in the kitchen (integrated), this is particularly the case in apartments and smaller homes. Or, it will live in a utility room off the kitchen, typically built under a countertop. The other alternative location is usually the garage, and typically the machines get stacked.

For apartment dwellers, the standard European style front loader also meant the end of the trudge up and down to shared laundry facilities in apartment complexes and all the associated problems with maintenence, security, cleanliness etc that goes with those kinds of facilities.

What has driven the efficiency levels on appliances here is the fact that they're all energy rated from A to G (a = good g = bad). These details are stuck on the front of every appliance on display at a store. Consumers tend to want to go for AAA machines, A (energy) A (wash) A (spin) where possible. Manufacturers respond to this by making their machines as efficient as possible.

I've used both front and top loaders on both sides of the Atlantic and I've found both types of machines very effective.

I reckon that FL machines do tend to have better programme options and, because of the fact that they have more control over water temp, the possibility of longer wash times and the detergent concentration in the wash solution is higher, they do tend to be able to tackle very bad staining without resorting to applying pre-treatment. To be honest, most normal washing machine users don't want to be scrunching liquid detergent or spraying on pre-treatment to laundry. You just want to be able to chuck it into the machine, forget about it and come back to clean clothes.

There'll always be some manufacturer in either market that will produce some pile of **** washing machine that does a terrible job.

E.g. I used a BOL whirlpool TL in the US that covered my shirts in lint. Made a complete mess. Then, I used a Speed Queen machine and had no such problems.

Likewise, in Europe I've used a BOL Whirlpool front loader that basically had bumps in the drum instead of paddles. This made the laundry bounce up and down rather than tumble and it did a terrible job. Poor washing performance and lousy rinsing. Then, using a Miele or even my Hotpoint Aqualtis and the results are exceptionally good every time. Even, on the quick wash (30 mins)

I really think it depends on the model and the manufacturer. I'm sure there are good and bad US FLs too.
 
"the Euro machines use the right amount and here they d

Honestly?

This is a political question.

Design an european washer is fabulous. We don´t need to follow rules. they must be excellent and they must be efficient. if possible AAA. If it´s good, the consumers will buy it. if it´s not the consumers won´t buy it. simple as 123.

We´re free to use our creativity at our own pace.

I remember my colleagues in panic when the american government announced those ridiculous HE standards. Politicians DON´T do laundry. Probably Mr. Bush doesn´t know the difference between a wringer washer and a HE washer.

The designers and engineers had a short time to develop a new technology and make it works. The only solution for this huge problem was very simple: Change the laundry habits!
HE front loaders are excellent! Designers and engineers did their best to make it clean using "2 teaspoons of water", but the user must relearn how to use a washer and forget everything they are used to do with a non-HE top loader.

After the consumers learn how to dose the detergent, how to sort the load and how to choose the cycles, they start to love the HE washers because they clean better, rinse better and spin faster.

A green bird came to my window a few years ago and told me for those who can´t get used to the new technologies, at least Electrolux (frigidaire) washers do have a trick to increase the water levels but I'm not allowed to talk about it.
 
"Bacteria is simply NOT killed NOR reduced in anyway at

That simply is not a wholly true, nor accurate statement.

Various bacteria, viruses, "germs", and so forth are affected at different temperatures. E. Coli, the most common germ found on laundry can be killed at temperatures of 160F held for 10 to 20 minutes. However there are so many factors affecting laundry practice that even if the laundry is done according to this method it still would have sizable colonies of E coli and other germs living.

Like washing one's hands or even hard surfaces, the purpose is more to sanitise than disenfect. The former is the process of reducing germ levels to a point where they are not likely to cause disease, the latter is totally eliminating (or near to as possible), all germs, bacteria, moulds etc.

Good laundry practices involve five parameters: water quality, mechanical action,temperature, chemicals, and heat.

Mechanical action, combined with proper chemical levels and heat (which activates chemicals), by and large will produce laundry that is sanitary for most purposes. Germs and such simply are removed from laundry and transferred to the wash and rinse water, where they are flushed away down the drain. True the germs are still living, but that doesn't matter for our purposes.

The above is why various posters, have stated so often that in tests done in their commercial laundries, temps of 120F to 125F were perfectly fine for clean and sanitary laundry. Telling is the fact that when machines are over loaded, remaining bacteria levels increased. One can assume from this that because of over loading the required mechanical,chemcial and other actions could not reach proper levels. What is more grime,filth and germs were not able to be rinsed away from laundry.

As things go, thermal disenfection is not the most accurate way, as there are too many variables and too many germs to account for. There are many chemicals that can and will disenfect in cool or cold temperatures, including chlorine bleach. Problem with chlorine bleach is one either must reduce germ levels prior to adding, or titre the level of product to soil levels, amoung other things. This is why commercial laundries use chlorine bleach as a different cycle.

In "olden days" the only time laundry was sent to the boiling pots before being soaked, and or otherwise cleaned first, is if it came from a known infected source. Indeed have several vintage laundry manuals from the 1920's or so through the 1950's, in several languages, that clearly tell housewives, laundresses and such that boiling of laundry went out when washing machines came in.

Boiling and or hot water washing is hard on textiles. It was back in the days, and is still true today. Persons compensated in the old days for all that boiling, beating and such by buying mainly pure linen and or other heavy and sturdy things which could withstand harsh laundry treatment. Even then housewives and such bemoaned the wearing out of their laundry from commercial laundries and or overly aggressive laundry workers.

One should also keep in mind, the mania for boiling and or doing laundry in very hot or at least hot water grew out of a period of time when the best defence against disease was not getting sick. While slowing people began to associate filth with germs and disease, there wasn't much anyone could do about infections until modern antibiotics came on the scene after WWII. Until then the best one could hope for was that one's own body's immune system would fight off the infection.

Housewives, mothers, nurses, and the lot got their marching orders, and the war on filth began. Everything was scrubbed, hosed down, boiled, bleached (with chlorine bleach), and so forth in the effort to protect one's charges from disease.

Aside from such infectious diseases such as smallpox, there is little to fear from not having boiled one's laundry to death.
 
Large surface areas inside a FL (specifically, the upper two-thirds of its outer tub, most of its door seal etc) are never subject to immersion in water, and therefore are never sanitized. It's why so many FL's have mold problems, and yet another reason why TL's are superior.
 
You do realise that BOTH tubs go round and round, thus at some point all surfaces, except the outer part of the outer drum, come into contact with water.

Top loading washing machines are not by any means some sort of paragon to cleanliness. Ask any repair person who has pulled machines apart to show you what is lurking beneath agitators and between tubs. Take a look also at the high water line and or above the high water mark beneath the rim of the inner tub as well.
 
Well, after 40+ years I'm still waiting to run into a TL with a mold problem. I can however point you to countless posts from FL owners, asking why their clothes smell so bad.
 
I can't understand why a top loader would be less likely

I'd imagine the innards are pretty similar, just turned on their side. Providing you regularly use a bleach containing powder and do regular hot washes and leave the door open between cycles there should not be a problem with smells or mould. I can't see why this is not the case with top loaders too. Ofcourse if any of these things are not carried out, mould is more likely to grow, and there are a lot of people who do not do this often enough and therefore their machine develop mould problems.
 
Mattew

The answer is very simple...

ventilation, my dear, ventilation!

Inside a top loader you can see a gap between the drum and the lid.
This small gap is enough to ventilate and dry the drum between wash days.
Front loaders are hermetic.

I own front loaders since the 80's. I growed with a front and a top loader at home.
My mom always kept the door open and we NEVER had probems with mould or smells.
 
Methinks that even with the top/lid down a top-loader gets air and the tub dries. Most do not have a boot/gasket/seal around the lid.

Top-loaders may perhaps have fewer mold issues in that chlorine bleach tends to be used in them (at least in my area/country). I guarantee to you that someone who uses waxy fabric-softener has mold issues.

A good occasional boil wash with dishwasher detergent would proabably eliminate front-loader mold issues.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top