Improving Top Loader Washer Performance Via Intermediate Soaks

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Chetlaham

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Could adding soak periods to the wash period of a deep fill top load washers increase their performance and cleaning power? I figure with modern detergents taking longer to work and the fact that modern washers take so much time to wash as is, could adding soak periods to deep fill top load washers increase their cleaning power and thus relevance?

 

 

 

I've always felt that 10 minutes wash time kind of short for a top load washer and that adding more agitation time like 14, 16 or 20 minutes increased clothing wear. What if top loads utilized a series of soak periods in between the normal agitation time so clothes come out cleaner by letting detergent enzymes worth without extra physical wear and tear?

 

If so, how much soak time would be ideal?

 

 

Here is an example of what I have in mind:

 

 

 

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What a novel idea...

I mean, you could also do that before the wash, perhaps even with less water and recirculation so you get a more concentrated detergent solution.

But wait...
No, that would be "faffing about" and "useless" and what ever everybody called it when the direct drive floating basket WPs did that...
Soaking clothing and extending wash times with less overall agitation just dosen't work, all of you say...

Those don't clean clothes, right?

(I tried my best to put the feeling of my eyes rolling back in my head into text, but I just can't really do it justice...)

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Henrik, the Whirlpool direct drives offered a Catalyst as a way to pre-treat stains. Its a shame more washers don't offer catalyst today. Whirlpool had some of the best ideas on the market.  

 

 

The thing I don't like about a lot of Whirlpool washers is that the prewash/pre-soak cycle would often advance to a drain and spin or half the water would drain out of the tub and refill when going into the wash. I don't think every article of tough stained clothing was that grimy, oily, or muddy. 

 

 

Jerome, filter flos offered up to a 20 minute wash and some models offered an auto soak cycle with a 30 minute pre-soak. Always liked the concept, I think GE offered some of the best cycle times and options.
 
DADoES- I like what I am seeing! Now that is a REAL wash cycle. Your machine appears to concentrate detergent by recalculating a half a tub of water for about 7 minutes, then it fills to full, agitates-soaks-agitates-soaks-agitates-ect and begins to drain at around 40 minutes from the start of the cycle. 

 

 

My favorite thing about your machine is that it does not drain out the water at any point until its ready to move onto spin. Only thing I don't like is agitating with the tub half full at the start of rinse and the pulsing of the drain pump. 

 

My dream is seeing something like this adapted to a direct drive washer.   

 

 

 

 
 
 
It fills far less than a half tub of water for the Eco Active treatment.

The pump pulses during drain for lint-flushing purposes.

Agitation at partial fill during rinse is due to a technical (power) problem that caused it re-sense the water level upon restart.  It normally would fill directly to the same level determined for the wash period.

You apparently didn't see my reply in another thread regards to the soak options this machine offers?
 
"The thing I don't like about a lot of Whirlpool washers is that the prewash/pre-soak cycle would often advance to a drain and spin or half the water would drain out of the tub and refill when going into the wash. I don't think every article of tough stained clothing was that grimy, oily, or muddy."

That's how things are supposed to roll.

We don't wash in dirty water.....

During soaking dirt, muck and whatever else settles to bottom of tub. Agitating water/laundry only serves to redistribute that soil back onto wash. In days of manual or even semi-automatic laundry one removed things from pre-soak and used fresh water for main wash.

Pre-soaking is pretty much same. Bulk of soil or muck removed during that cycle needs to go down drain. In commercial laundries with front loading washers there is usually a pre-flush cycle before main wash. This again sends good part of muck off wash and down drain thus main wash water will be cleaner.
 
DADoES, thank you for the explanations. The power problem causing early rinse agitation makes sense. This is why I prefer the analog contacts of a timer. But that doesn't stop you from having a great machine.

 

Do you have a link to the thread you have in mind? Unless I'm thinking you answered something I did not read beyond what you wrote all along. I have a very keen interest in the programming of your F&P washer and dryer. I learned a lot from the dryer thread and how you were able to pull up temps from the dryer's control board and also referenced from the service manual. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I have a keen interest in your washer's programming. The only thing that has made me less inquisitive than I should have been all these years I embarrassingly have to admit is the electronics and VFD in your machine. I prefer having a transmission, clutch, brake and EM timer so my attention tends to be directed toward those machines only because that is where my curiosity leads me.

 

I have a strong liking for Whirlpool's EM Catalyst and Resource Saver direct drives. I can understand Combo52's allure in owning a Whirlpool Resource Saver in addition to his front load washers.    

 

 

@launderess- that is interesting to know. I guess the level of soil (or more specifically stains like coffee, tomato sauce, grass, ect) I have in mind is less than the amount manufacturers have in mind. Kind of like Maytag agitation vs Whirlpool ; TR vs TC. One is for office level soils, the other is for hands on soils. 

 

DADoES's F&P is what I have in mind, it does not drain the water out until it is time to rinse. It pretreats and incorporates soak into the wash period. Brilliant concept.       
 
modern washers needs the following features

Pretty sure chetlam would agree with this but i would say modern washers, toploads and front loads vmw and vmax models needs are an extra hot water wash (sanitize) and true warm rinse eather its for a regular wash features that would be aspecaly useful during allergie seasons spring summer or if treating a cold to make sure germs are 100% gone and eliminated during wash and rinse and even if washer has a computer there should be an option or buttons beside cycle knob that let the user of the washer select wash time varying from 2 hours to 30 minutes depending if options like presoak soak. Prewash extra rinse and fabric softner on have been selected screen shot of vintage machine as ref and exemple.

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Pierre I agree with you and then some. Modern washer both front and top load need to able to achieve very hot water for diapers, sheets, whites and heavily soiled articles- either by letting the hot valve fully open without the cold opening for the duration of the fill as the case of top loaders or letting a heater boost the water to a high predetermined temperature in the case of front loads. 

 

 

It is my opinion that all fabrics except those prone to wrinkling, easily fad-able bright colors and extra delicate items be rinsed in 70*F-100*F warm water. Warm water relaxes fabrics allowing for better detergent carry away. In spray rinse washers, opening both valves has the advantage of letting more water in to compensate for heavier fabrics requiring it, while a cold spray provides fewer gallons per minute that work better with thinner garments. In fact it is my belief that washers should offer a cold/cool wash with a warm rinse for knit fabrics. Cold/Cool protects the delicate fabric and arrangement in the wash, but relaxes the thick bundle of fibers in the rinse for maximum carry away and comfortable handling at the end of the cycle. Cold water, especially in winter contracts fibers essentially washing the outside of the cloth but not the inside.

 

 

 

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I also believe top loaders should offer a long soak and prewash cycles that lead directly into the main wash to aid in pre-treating and washing out tough stains. To many top load washers seem to lack this.

 

 

 
 
"@launderess- that is interesting to know. I guess the level of soil (or more specifically stains like coffee, tomato sauce, grass, ect) I have in mind is less than the amount manufacturers have in mind. Kind of like Maytag agitation vs Whirlpool ; TR vs TC. One is for office level soils, the other is for hands on soils. "

Generations of good wash day practices where thrown out with the bath water (see what I did there?) with arrival of fully automatic washing machines, at least in USA.

One never, ever, starts wash in "hot" water (temps > 100 F). It will set all sorts of stains and soils including protein based. Latter includes body oils/soils such as sweat and other fluids that are present on even when things look "clean". If they've been worn or used, they're you are then.

Sadly this is just what happens when "normal" wash cycles on most automatic top loading washers then and since. Some machines did offer a pre-wash or pre-soak, but as this usually was found on TOL or so machines not everyone had that option.

North American housewives and other committed multitude of wash day sins because they relied upon copious use of chlorine bleach for whitening and stain removal. Even there because many top loading washers weren't that great at rinsing much chlorine bleach was left in fabrics. This eventually caused yellowing and weakening of textiles, especially if heated after washing such as dried in tumble dryer and or ironed.
 
Launderess, as always I you are correct in your pedagogy. But may I have permission to once challenge the instructor?
smiley-innocent.gif


 

 

Whirlpool Resource saver washers offer a full unadulterated hot fill for their soak and prewash cycles, while the regular cycle restricts how water to 100*F via ATC. 

 

 

 

 
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Not so much as an "I got you", rather trying to find self justification of using the pre-wash & pre-soak water for the rest of the wash cycle. Personally I think all but BOL washers should offer a pre-soak function. 
 
Peirre, this is what I came up with from your screen shot. Chances are that Inglis washer has an incremental advance timer. Re-imagining it as a continuous advance 64 minute timer comes out promising. So here is this:

 

 

 
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What do you think? Yay or ney?

 

 

Cycle from pre-soak is as follows for Jerome-

 

6 minutes fill

 

Wash 4 minutes

 

Soak 8 minutes

 

Wash 2 minutes

 

Soak 8 minutes

 

Wash 15 minutes

 

pause 1 minute

 

Spin 2 minutes

 

Spray Cool Down 1 minute

 

Spin 2 minutes

 

Spray warm or cold 1 minute

 

Spin 2 minutes

 

Spray warm or cold 1 minute

 

Spin 6 minutes

 

Motor off and lead out 1 minute

 

 

 

 
 
its a yay chetlam i think companyys of today would learn alot if they studied the dial skirt era of canadien inglis whirlpool era of washers and counting the suds return era of these models on reuising hot water from the first wash and in the case of frontload modern topload if they had a suds return function reuse hot water from first wash, got warm or cold as the washer returns the sudsy water from the first wash heater in term of frontload kicks in to reheat the water to right temp and in the case of modern topload as the sudsy water return if warm or cold no matter what the selected wash temp is washer sends in fresh hot water to reheat the water to right wash temp warm if warm is selected and hot if its a hotwater wash. Start prewash super wash to allow removal of stain and heavy soil partial drain and soak fill for main wash, in if washer is electronic and detects suds do an extra rinse by default.

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and in term of resource protection just imagine how much water would be save if the modern washers sud saver system as it drain the sudsy water in the wash used a 2 pump system one to save the water pump 1 and pump 2 gets rids of dirt and lint leaving the reusable hot water clean to be pump back in the washer taking for exemple the vintage washer 1972 inglis superb while keeping its classic and vintage dial and knobs for water level wash rinse temp i wonder what modern features for 2025 would add

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If I say it, I'll get a whippin...

I'll say it! *LOL*

Very long story short there are only so many things that can be done to improve performance of top loading washing machines with central beaters.

There are very good reasons why commercial/industrial laundries went right to H-axis washers (even when driven by belts instead of motors) and after period of minor sorting out most of Europe totally embraced front loading washers for domestic use.

Maytag every early on had an H-axis washer (combined with wringer) where adverts had a housewife (likely middle class or above) beaming to her laundress about how beautiful results were by "Mary" without a sign of wear and tear.

Hurley Machine Company came out with their "Thor" H-axis washers back in late 1800's or early 1900's. https://archive.org/details/youyourlaundry00fred/mode/2up

Later it was Bendix that took up front loading washers in USA,Constructa was doing same in Germany.



Understand and respect personal choices that favourtop loading washers. Oneself however after first H-axis washer (a Malber all those years ago), have never looked back. That Malber, and our current line up of Miele, and two AEG h-axis washers do a full load of about 11lbs of wash using less water and chemicals and far less wear than top loaders one used for decades previous.
 
Pierre, you know what I'd do? I'd save the deep rinse water and then use that for the wash. Just feels more right. I also think spray rinsing would save water while improving rinse results in top load washers so much so I'm researching the topic extensively and thinking of various ways that it can be adapted to a top load washer cycle.

 

 

If everyone were like me a 2025 top load would have both catalyst and resource saver rinsing, an extra rinse knob, soak and pre-wash options, some form of water re-circulation, spin-drain, infinite water level, timed liquid bleach, dual action agitator, heavy duty porcelain on everything steal, EM controls, ATC, ect.

 

No electronics for me other than an over-ridable ATC board. Though there is a good chance said ATC might be via bi-metallic thermostats as in latter DDs.
 
Launderess, I'd go with a front loader if it had simple EM controls, strong onboard heater, sump recirculation pump and hardware based balancing. 

 

Top loads do have one major advantage: time. A top loader can complete a whole cycle in as little as 24 minutes.  

 

 



 

Though I get where you are coming from, top loaders have their limitations in several regards. 
 
Reply number 16

Oh Chet, if you knew how the world worked, it would be dangerous, lol

That hot setting on the resource savers was only there in case the consumer needed a hot wash. It was a workaround you filled it on the pre-soak cycle and then moved it over to the main cycle. It was never intended to be the main soaking choice to soak things in hot water.

John L
 
Then why didn't they put it on the wash/rinse &spin temprature knob?

 

They put it on the soak/pre-wash knob.

 

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It is funny, because had I drawn up this exact control panel before Whirlpool did your reply would be "Chet, absolutely nobody soaks in hot water. That is pretty obvious. Hot water is for washing only. This shows you've never done a single load of laundry before, lulz"  

 

 My guess is that Whirlpool thinks a hot pre-wash (and not a soak) is beneficial, when it is needed.

 
 
 
<blockquote>Then why didn't they put it on the wash/rinse &spin temprature knob?</blockquote> Perhaps for energy rating qualifications, which are based on the designated Normal cycle?

Standard laundry practice advises PRE-soaking and/or PRE-washing should be at cold, cool, or warm temperature to avoid setting-in temperature-sensitive stains.  Some machine programming does break that rule, such as WP vintage models that have the Super Wash process, although Super Wash seems aimed moreso at heavy (DIRT) soil than stains (thus the pause for DIRT soil to settle for flushing via the partial drain).

I recall KM advised warm (or cold) for the separate Enzyme Soak cycle.  I imagine programmed/pushbutton LK models with automatic advance had a warm soak.  Can't say about 800 models with option of soak-to-wash, whether that option when selected overrides a hot wash temp choice into a warm soak, collectors with those machines can perhaps investigate the details.
 
This is yet another reason why I dislike energy regulations, they make everything more confusing and complicated. ATC hot (100*F) would make a lot more sense being reserved for the soak and prewash cycles but thanks to energy start its literally backwards. I like conventions that are which straight forward and decipherable at face value. 

 

 

DaDoES, you have a point. I've read a lot of lid instructions and washer manuals that state soaking in hot can set certain stains. Whirlpool's super wash does most likely have dirt in mind vs stains, hence the short time and half tub drain. 

 

 

I guess I need to come up with a new name for the idea that I have in mind.

 

 

I'm curious as well. Did these Kenmore default to warm or drain the water out?
 
Reply #28

Chet if I select Hot/Cold or Hot/Warm while using the soak&Wash feature on the 1974 Kenmore 70 it will do the presoak and prewash in cooler water and then change over to Hot when it fills for the 14 minute wash.
 
Neat! Is the wiring diagram still intact on the back access panel on your 1974 Kenmore 70?

 

If Whirlpool went through the trouble of configuring their machines to fill with warm water on pre-soak when set to hot/cold or hot/warm, then I definitely should not be soaking things in hot water.

 

 

I guess I will have to come up with a different name for my concept, or just abandon the idea in general and switch to something else.  
 
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