Improving Top Loader Washer Performance Via Intermediate Soaks

[Chetlaham]

Could adding soak periods to the wash period of a deep fill top load washers increase their performance and cleaning power? I figure with modern detergents taking longer to work and the fact that modern washers take so much time to wash as is, could adding soak periods to deep fill top load washers increase their cleaning power and thus relevance?

 

 

 

I've always felt that 10 minutes wash time kind of short for a top load washer and that adding more agitation time like 14, 16 or 20 minutes increased clothing wear. What if top loads utilized a series of soak periods in between the normal agitation time so clothes come out cleaner by letting detergent enzymes worth without extra physical wear and tear?

 

If so, how much soak time would be ideal?

 

 

Here is an example of what I have in mind:

 

 

 

 

[henene4]

What a novel idea...

I mean, you could also do that before the wash, perhaps even with less water and recirculation so you get a more concentrated detergent solution.

But wait...
No, that would be "faffing about" and "useless" and what ever everybody called it when the direct drive floating basket WPs did that...
Soaking clothing and extending wash times with less overall agitation just dosen't work, all of you say...

Those don't clean clothes, right?

(I tried my best to put the feeling of my eyes rolling back in my head into text, but I just can't really do it justice...)

 

[hvtech42]

Yes, it will increase their cleaning power. This isn't exactly news. It won't increase their relevance, because they still be using multiples of the water as modern machines, with less stain removal ability than a modern profile wash.

 

[foraloysius]

My LG Turbodrum has the option to do a soak during the wash.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

GE model T

The longest continuous agitation time my model T GE took was 15 minutes.

 

[DADoES]

 
It's truly astonishing that no one thus far has conceived and implemented this idea!

-------------------------------------------------

Hmmmmmmmmmm .....

 

[Chetlaham]

Henrik, the Whirlpool direct drives offered a Catalyst as a way to pre-treat stains. Its a shame more washers don't offer catalyst today. Whirlpool had some of the best ideas on the market.  

 

 

The thing I don't like about a lot of Whirlpool washers is that the prewash/pre-soak cycle would often advance to a drain and spin or half the water would drain out of the tub and refill when going into the wash. I don't think every article of tough stained clothing was that grimy, oily, or muddy. 

 

 

Jerome, filter flos offered up to a 20 minute wash and some models offered an auto soak cycle with a 30 minute pre-soak. Always liked the concept, I think GE offered some of the best cycle times and options.

 

[Chetlaham]

DADoES- I like what I am seeing! Now that is a REAL wash cycle. Your machine appears to concentrate detergent by recalculating a half a tub of water for about 7 minutes, then it fills to full, agitates-soaks-agitates-soaks-agitates-ect and begins to drain at around 40 minutes from the start of the cycle. 

 

 

My favorite thing about your machine is that it does not drain out the water at any point until its ready to move onto spin. Only thing I don't like is agitating with the tub half full at the start of rinse and the pulsing of the drain pump. 

 

My dream is seeing something like this adapted to a direct drive washer.   

 

 

 

 

 

[Chetlaham]

And by adapted to a direct drive washer I mean 6 minutes of Catalyst followed by 30 minutes of on/off soak and agitation.

 

[DADoES]

 
It fills far less than a half tub of water for the Eco Active treatment.

The pump pulses during drain for lint-flushing purposes.

Agitation at partial fill during rinse is due to a technical (power) problem that caused it re-sense the water level upon restart.  It normally would fill directly to the same level determined for the wash period.

You apparently didn't see my reply in another thread regards to the soak options this machine offers?

 

[launderess]

"The thing I don't like about a lot of Whirlpool washers is that the prewash/pre-soak cycle would often advance to a drain and spin or half the water would drain out of the tub and refill when going into the wash. I don't think every article of tough stained clothing was that grimy, oily, or muddy."

That's how things are supposed to roll.

We don't wash in dirty water.....

During soaking dirt, muck and whatever else settles to bottom of tub. Agitating water/laundry only serves to redistribute that soil back onto wash. In days of manual or even semi-automatic laundry one removed things from pre-soak and used fresh water for main wash.

Pre-soaking is pretty much same. Bulk of soil or muck removed during that cycle needs to go down drain. In commercial laundries with front loading washers there is usually a pre-flush cycle before main wash. This again sends good part of muck off wash and down drain thus main wash water will be cleaner.

 

[Chetlaham]

DADoES, thank you for the explanations. The power problem causing early rinse agitation makes sense. This is why I prefer the analog contacts of a timer. But that doesn't stop you from having a great machine.

 

Do you have a link to the thread you have in mind? Unless I'm thinking you answered something I did not read beyond what you wrote all along. I have a very keen interest in the programming of your F&P washer and dryer. I learned a lot from the dryer thread and how you were able to pull up temps from the dryer's control board and also referenced from the service manual. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I have a keen interest in your washer's programming. The only thing that has made me less inquisitive than I should have been all these years I embarrassingly have to admit is the electronics and VFD in your machine. I prefer having a transmission, clutch, brake and EM timer so my attention tends to be directed toward those machines only because that is where my curiosity leads me.

 

I have a strong liking for Whirlpool's EM Catalyst and Resource Saver direct drives. I can understand Combo52's allure in owning a Whirlpool Resource Saver in addition to his front load washers.    

 

 

@launderess- that is interesting to know. I guess the level of soil (or more specifically stains like coffee, tomato sauce, grass, ect) I have in mind is less than the amount manufacturers have in mind. Kind of like Maytag agitation vs Whirlpool ; TR vs TC. One is for office level soils, the other is for hands on soils. 

 

DADoES's F&P is what I have in mind, it does not drain the water out until it is time to rinse. It pretreats and incorporates soak into the wash period. Brilliant concept.       

 

[gelaundry4ever]

chetlaham

What about GE? What soils are they for?

 

[pierreandreply4]

modern washers needs the following features

Pretty sure chetlam would agree with this but i would say modern washers, toploads and front loads vmw and vmax models needs are an extra hot water wash (sanitize) and true warm rinse eather its for a regular wash features that would be aspecaly useful during allergie seasons spring summer or if treating a cold to make sure germs are 100% gone and eliminated during wash and rinse and even if washer has a computer there should be an option or buttons beside cycle knob that let the user of the washer select wash time varying from 2 hours to 30 minutes depending if options like presoak soak. Prewash extra rinse and fabric softner on have been selected screen shot of vintage machine as ref and exemple.

 

[Chetlaham]

Pierre I agree with you and then some. Modern washer both front and top load need to able to achieve very hot water for diapers, sheets, whites and heavily soiled articles- either by letting the hot valve fully open without the cold opening for the duration of the fill as the case of top loaders or letting a heater boost the water to a high predetermined temperature in the case of front loads. 

 

 

It is my opinion that all fabrics except those prone to wrinkling, easily fad-able bright colors and extra delicate items be rinsed in 70*F-100*F warm water. Warm water relaxes fabrics allowing for better detergent carry away. In spray rinse washers, opening both valves has the advantage of letting more water in to compensate for heavier fabrics requiring it, while a cold spray provides fewer gallons per minute that work better with thinner garments. In fact it is my belief that washers should offer a cold/cool wash with a warm rinse for knit fabrics. Cold/Cool protects the delicate fabric and arrangement in the wash, but relaxes the thick bundle of fibers in the rinse for maximum carry away and comfortable handling at the end of the cycle. Cold water, especially in winter contracts fibers essentially washing the outside of the cloth but not the inside.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also believe top loaders should offer a long soak and prewash cycles that lead directly into the main wash to aid in pre-treating and washing out tough stains. To many top load washers seem to lack this.

 

 

 

 

[launderess]

"@launderess- that is interesting to know. I guess the level of soil (or more specifically stains like coffee, tomato sauce, grass, ect) I have in mind is less than the amount manufacturers have in mind. Kind of like Maytag agitation vs Whirlpool ; TR vs TC. One is for office level soils, the other is for hands on soils. "

Generations of good wash day practices where thrown out with the bath water (see what I did there?) with arrival of fully automatic washing machines, at least in USA.

One never, ever, starts wash in "hot" water (temps > 100 F). It will set all sorts of stains and soils including protein based. Latter includes body oils/soils such as sweat and other fluids that are present on even when things look "clean". If they've been worn or used, they're you are then.

Sadly this is just what happens when "normal" wash cycles on most automatic top loading washers then and since. Some machines did offer a pre-wash or pre-soak, but as this usually was found on TOL or so machines not everyone had that option.

North American housewives and other committed multitude of wash day sins because they relied upon copious use of chlorine bleach for whitening and stain removal. Even there because many top loading washers weren't that great at rinsing much chlorine bleach was left in fabrics. This eventually caused yellowing and weakening of textiles, especially if heated after washing such as dried in tumble dryer and or ironed.

 

[Chetlaham]

Launderess, as always I you are correct in your pedagogy. But may I have permission to once challenge the instructor?

 

 

Whirlpool Resource saver washers offer a full unadulterated hot fill for their soak and prewash cycles, while the regular cycle restricts how water to 100*F via ATC. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not so much as an "I got you", rather trying to find self justification of using the pre-wash & pre-soak water for the rest of the wash cycle. Personally I think all but BOL washers should offer a pre-soak function. 

 

[Chetlaham]

Peirre, this is what I came up with from your screen shot. Chances are that Inglis washer has an incremental advance timer. Re-imagining it as a continuous advance 64 minute timer comes out promising. So here is this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

What do you think? Yay or ney?

 

 

Cycle from pre-soak is as follows for Jerome-

 

6 minutes fill

 

Wash 4 minutes

 

Soak 8 minutes

 

Wash 2 minutes

 

Soak 8 minutes

 

Wash 15 minutes

 

pause 1 minute

 

Spin 2 minutes

 

Spray Cool Down 1 minute

 

Spin 2 minutes

 

Spray warm or cold 1 minute

 

Spin 2 minutes

 

Spray warm or cold 1 minute

 

Spin 6 minutes

 

Motor off and lead out 1 minute

 

 

 

 

 

[pierreandreply4]

its a yay chetlam i think companyys of today would learn alot if they studied the dial skirt era of canadien inglis whirlpool era of washers and counting the suds return era of these models on reuising hot water from the first wash and in the case of frontload modern topload if they had a suds return function reuse hot water from first wash, got warm or cold as the washer returns the sudsy water from the first wash heater in term of frontload kicks in to reheat the water to right temp and in the case of modern topload as the sudsy water return if warm or cold no matter what the selected wash temp is washer sends in fresh hot water to reheat the water to right wash temp warm if warm is selected and hot if its a hotwater wash. Start prewash super wash to allow removal of stain and heavy soil partial drain and soak fill for main wash, in if washer is electronic and detects suds do an extra rinse by default.