Is gas on its way out as a cooking fuel?

[neptunebob]

I would love to have a tankless water heater but mother probably won't go for it. We do have an 8 inch flue from when we had an inefficient furnace - would that be enough?

I don't know why the utilities don't encourage people to heat with gas as using gas to generate electricity just seems so wasteful. Is there any way the public can have some say in their energy sources?

A few years ago near us, Allegheny Power bragged in the paper that they built a natural-gas-fired "Combined cycle Jet-Turbine power station" that is 60% efficient at best. Wouldn't burning gas directly be 100% efficient or did I learn my science wrong?

 

[toggleswitch]

you got it perfectly right!

But most boilers/furnaces IIRC are just under 90% efficient.

There are losses in a power delivery system besides just the turbine/generator!

 

[maytagbear]

One of the reasons why Gas is burned to make Electricity--

Gas burns far more cleanly than most coal varieties...certainly more cleanly than bituminous.

Lawrence/Maytagbear

 

[toggleswitch]

You can only pump it so fast before you have problems.

Methinks oil should be burned, and save the gas for cold snaps when demand exceeds supply.

Below 20*F many industrial/commericial users here are REQUIRED to revert back to oil. Agreeing to same is the only way most are granted natural gas service. This ensures a supply for small and domestic/residential users in times of high demand.

A small eletronic device receives a telephonic signal from the utilty company and switches it all over automaticaly and seamlessly to the user.

 

[sudsmaster]

In California, due to air quality considerations that are somewhat unique to the state, the only fossil fuel burned in any great quantity for electricity generation is natural gas. Emergency and peaker generators might use diesel. The rest of our electricity is from hydro, nuclear, solar, geothermal, wind. However we also import electricity from other states where it may be generated using dirtier fuels such as coal.

It's absolutely true that burning gas in a home furnace is much more energy efficient that burning it in a power station and then using the electricity to heat the home. Although heat exchanger units can make electricity less wasteful and on a par with gas.

 

[volvoguy87]

Let me be more specific...

Electric tankless water heaters are just fine for smaller applications. For large capacity heaters, gas is usually the better choice. Although both kinds are energy hogs when in use, THEY ARE RARELY IN USE! They only are in use when hot water is flowing, otherwise they use virtually no energy. They are activated when a flow-sensor detects water flowing through the pipe, and they shut off when the water flow stops. The most important thing is to get one with a variable temperature, meaning it will not go to maximum power when the water flow is a trickle. The better heaters will adjust their power to maintain a pre-set output water temperature.

Keep warm, for less!
Dave

 

[lederstiefel1]

tankless heaters

Well, have to give some advice here...
Bosch, a German brand, has the same advantages or disadvantages as all other German brands have..
I wondered about the comment in the link from Toggleswitch about American tankless heaters....
In Germany tank heaters (normally only electic ones unless they are combined with the central heating as a seperate boiler in the basement/cellar) are about 1.5 to twice as expensive as tankless heaters. Both types are usually connected to 400 V / AC as they take about 6Kw for the tanks and 18-27KW for the tankless ones to run.
The second link on the next page shows the tankless one we have here at home!
I installed a tank heater in my parents' home in the bath (see link!), which leads hot water to the bath-tub with shower, the wash-basin, the dish-washer and - very unusual in Germany - to the washing machine (my mom has to switch valves for the use of the hot water, as German washing machines usually have ONLY cold inlet)! The tank is very well insulated and keeps the heat very well - even after several days of vaccation the water is still quite warm!

Ralf

http://www.stiebel-eltron.de/warmwasser/produkte/wandspeicher/wandspeicher-30-bis-150-liter/shz/

 

[lederstiefel1]

our tankless heater

The thing with the gas heaters: Very popular here in Germany are, if gas is available in the house, so called appartement-heating, which is a central heating with tankless heater in one appliance. They look like usual tankless gas water heaters. The moment you turn on a hot tap the central-heating stopps and the burner heats up the water until turned off again, then central-heating is continued. In the summer only the water-heating works. That is also the reason, why I cannot understand why we have this gas appartement central-heating in the kitchen, next to the sink installed in a cuboad, BUT an electric tankless heater in the bath PLUS a one-gallon/2KW-230V tank-heater underneath the kitchen sink... The renting company (BAYER Chemicals) knows why....

Ralf

this our tankless heater!

http://www.stiebel-eltron.de/warmwa...hydraulisch-gesteuerte-durchlauferhitzer/hdb/

 

[lederstiefel1]

stand-by loss

Nearly forgot to say: the stand-by loss of a tank-heater goes where? Well, at my parents home into the bathroom... So the central-heating has to do less heating in that room... smile...
OK - in summer that is stupid but then room temperature is higher, too and therefor the loss of energy in stand-by is also less - they say on the web-page it is 1KW per day with the 150 liter one which means as much warmth as a about a 60watt-bulb produces!

Ralf

 

[hydralique]

Ralf obviously knows a lot about actually living with a tankless heater . . . the gas ones heat pretty well but the electrics take a lot of power if they are to work well. And, if the electric power comes from fossil fues then there is a considerable amount of energy waste in just producing the electricity. Regarding pilots on American made gas tankless heaters I believe that Ruud/Rheem heaters are all electronic ignition.

One issue with the gas units is noise. Because the burners have to be really powerful to heat very fast thay can make lots of noise on startup, plus some have blowers to assist combustion. I have a client who had two tankless heaters removed recently and two conventional tank-type units intstalled because the tankless units started with a big boom. I wasn't involved with either installation so can't comment on brand. She is the picky sort for sure, but that isn't unusual. For this reason I'd never want to install a big tankless in a closet next to any important room; a client is unlikely to call after the job is done and thank you for a few bucks saved on gas but you WILL hear about it if there is an audible boom next to the master bedroom when one person turns on the hot water tap while the other is sleeping!

A good modern tank-type heater doesn't waste a lot of heat because the tank is well insulated. I'm sure some of the older, cheaper units are waseful but that isn't a fair comparison anyway. I'm just amazed at all the hype surrounding tankless heaters. They're a nice alternative to have when the situation calls for their particular advantages, but you can do pretty well with a super-high efficiency tank type.

FWIW: My energy consultants recommend the Noritz and Takagi tankless heaters as being excellent units, and say the Ruud/Rheem products are decent. They aren't too fond of Bosch as they've had more complaints of uneven water temps and such with them. For tank-type heaters they love the Polaris; it can be very helpful in meeting state energy-use analysis standards.