Let's Talk About Heating Shall We?

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launderess

launderess

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Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage
WarmSecondRinse's excellent post in another thread regarding steam heating got me thinking. Since Fall is now here and heating season soon upon us time to start a good natured thread about heating systems past and present.

Here in NYC as in much of the northeast steam is the perhaps the dominate method of heating especially for multi-family/unit buildings including apartment buildings and offices. Problem is many of these systems were designed and installed pre-WWII or even pre-WW1 and many of the old steam-heads are no longer around.

From what one has read steam heating systems especially boilers were vastly over sized back then to accommodate drafty buildings. That and often by local code rooms had to be kept at 70F even with windows wide open in winter. This idea of "ventilation" grew out of the Spanish Flu epidemic. People believed fresh air killed or at least kept the flu bug away.

Now of course these older buildings have had new tightly fitted double or triple pane windows installed and now the sizing for steam is totally off. Problem is finding someone who understands what needs to be done.

Am also fascinated by old steam heat systems that used "vacuum" and coal boilers to get the most out of that source of heat.

Some of my favourite heating bookmarks:

http://fenkoil.ru/721/

Steam Heat Radiator Pipe Connections

Steam heat radiator piping connections for steam heating radiators. Difference between one pipe and two pipe steam heating systems. Upfeed vs Downfeed steam pipes. How to figure out what type of steam heat is installed in a building. How steam rises or enters radiators. How condensate in a steam...
inspectapedia.com inspectapedia.com
 
There is a fair

number of homes in my area that are "boiler heat" as I call them. As expected most are well over 60 years old. 2 story, some are even 3. From what I gather, most are gas fired boilers perhaps converted from oil or coal years ago.

There are quite a few US companies still making boilers. I work with a chap that has a late 1890's home with boiler heat. He likes it. Most like the quiteness and even heating.

I've always liked forced air gas but I suppose so long as it keeps you warm, whatever works is ok.

FWIW, my depression era country school had boiler heat. It was either full on or full off! We literally roasted in the blizzard of 78! I mean no matter how cold it was, I guarantee you many of the classrooms had the swing out windows wide open in January.
 
Temp fluctuations from multiple-dwelling steam heat

I assume you have one-pipe steam heat? When we lived in Riverdale in the '80s, I installed thermostatic bleed valves on our radiators. Once I got them adjusted just right, we had even heat instead of the usual swelter-then-freeze cycle. The valve works by controlling the outflow of air out of the radiator when the steam comes up -- if the air flows out slowly, then the radiator warms up gradually instead of all at once. IIRC, my valves came with a control dial and temperature sensor on a separate unit, connected to the valve by a thin tube of some sort, that mounted on the wall. Looks like now the valve and control are sold separately. One example:

 
We have natural gas forced air, an Amana high efficiency unit (91% if I remember right) from about 1990 or so, Supplemented by a wood stove in the finished basement. Typical drafty 1950's ranch. The house can be heated properly running the furnace only, but heat comes at a price, so we supplement with the wood stove, which can also heat the house fairly well, but needs to be kept roaring to do so. We are thinking about installing a wood pellet stove upstairs this fall to further cut down on heating expenses. Will see how far that goes.....
 
Steam Heat

The picture of that school reminds me of my grade school, also built in 1931. It had steam heat with bare pipes going up the walls to the next room above, with huge radiators under the windows, those suckers would get hot !!!!! the pipes were multicolored from kids melting crayons on them, but that school was the warmest compared to the 2 new ones built in the late 60's. Only problem was when someone put too much water in the boiler, the place sounded like it was going to blow up !!!
 
There used to be alot of bigger buildings with steam here. My ex-inlaws had a 1 pipe steam system that had to be filled by hand every so often or it made tons of noise. The radiators had a silver thingie on the side that whistled when it got hot, just what you wanted to listen to at 2am. Most of the pipes were rapped in asbestos and it took a costly abatement crew with gowns and masks to clean it out and they ended up as basic 2 pipe hot water systems.
 
A FEW steam ystems

Left in the South, some hot water, mostly hot air, for many years oil was IT,,ow natural gas is popular where available, I love to work on really old oil burners,I don't do heating service anymore for a living, but once in a while I get to fix some old unit no one else will tackle!LOL
 
As mentioned in another thread

While once steam dominated multi-family/large office buildings more and more of the housing market is going with forced air or PTACs.

This is for a host of reasons.

In NYC if the LL provides heat the City has mandates about the heating season as well as day and night minimum temperatures. http://heatwatchnyc.org/tenant_rights.html

With steam heat especially in an older building where there have been changes and or the thing not properly maintained you have the all to common situation. Persons on the lower floors roasting while residents at the top complain they are "cold"

You also have a good number of older persons and or families with children who like it "hot". Well with steam systems depending upon design you are only going to get "on" or "off". That is the boiler will cycle based upon set parameters which in theory should maintain a constant even 70F temp, but then again maybe not.

Some tenants treat the steam valves like a thermostat and open or close them partially to "adjust" the radiator temp. That causes the system to go out of balance. Ditto if too many tenants in a line shut off their radiators.

Partially closing a steam valve causes water to build up in the pipes and then you get that hammer noise which when extreme can sound as if the building will come down.

Any way far easier for the developer or LL to pass heating responsibility and costs onto individual tenants/owners. Problem again in the case of PTAC if run on electric you are going to pay dear from Con Edison.

New properties are also installing something common in Europe but rare in NYC, electric water heaters. Again this helps shift cost of the building away from owner to individual tenants. Nothing will prompt a switch to sailor's showers quicker than a NYC electric bill for using lots of hot water heated via that method.

Many of the new high rise and other apartments buildings are mostly glass construction, so that lets out steam IIRC.

Finally if you go with forced air you can do central air conditioning for full climate control. This is a very big issue atm with new construction as again many of these buildings are glass without opening windows or not man that do.
 
Hot water and steam are still king in the large high rises and skyscrapers in Chicago, but in the smaller buildings it's been going by the wayside one renovation at a time, in favor of forced air so that it can be on separate utilities so tenants can pay their own.

My dads 3 story, 3 unit (1 storefront and 2 apartments) building had the first floor separated from the originally gravity hot water heat system about 12 years ago by the old owner and a gas furnace was installed for that space. The apartments remain to be heated by the original cast iron radiators original from 1915, the boiler was replaced 8 years ago. Most of the windows are original, and the brick building has zero insulation and it shows in the gas bill that runs around 5-600 dollars every January keeping the thermostat at 70. (it used to be 900-1000 dollars with the old 1950s gas boiler)

Both of the buildings besides his still use their original heating systems, one of them was built in 1893 and has 1 pipe steam, still heated entirely by it. The other next to it was built around 1917 and uses hot water like ours.
A few buildings down used to use an earlier variant of 2 pipe steam that used an air vent (the silver thingy on the side that whistles if the system isn't running properly), instead of the steam traps that those systems are more commonly associated with. I believe that system was taken out of service a few years ago.

Around where I live, not a single old house used hot water or steam! If it was built in the 20s-40ss it had gravity flow hot air heating (the kind of system with massive ducts, and a furnace that typically looked like an octopus) Prior to the 20s they probably just used fireplaces and stoves. Actually, hot water heating was most popular around here in the 50s-60s when it was being installed in the form of cast iron baseboard, or more rarely, in floor radiant (my grandmas neighbors house was built with in-slab radiant heating in 1947)

Of course, before the 1950s all of these heating systems used coal! Then in the 50s people were using either oil or natural gas. The house my mother grew up in was built in 1954 and had oil heat, later replaced with natural gas. My grandmothers house was built in 1950 and I believe always had natural gas for heating. The building in Chicago I presume went from coal to natural gas (which the service was always there, as the building originally had gas lighting!)
 
In my area steam heat is almost non existent.Mostly gas,oil and heat pumps.The transmitter building uses transmitter waste heat-warm water heat from two boilers(fuel oil-share with the genset) for heaing.Chillers run year 'round.Summer for cooling-winter to control humidity.The boilers have their own water system-the chillers have theirs.Each is independent of the other.Right now the boilers are off.If it gwets cold enough-they will start.Generally one-the other for backup or if it gets really cold.On my shift have to check the HVAC system to make sure its OK.At home have a heat pump-would love gas heat-but too expensive to put in at this time.Some homes here have propane heat and cooking as well.My home used to have oil heat but the previous owners replaced it years ago.The furnace chimney is still there.Another home on my block uses oil heat-you see the oil truck stopping there.
 
The old

steam radiator systems fascinate me...my elementary school was also built in the '20's and had one pipe steam through most of it, although a couple of newer additions had two pipe hot water going thru them.  I remember when I was in first grade I had to go to the basement to summon the janitor when a classmate barfed and I got to see that huge boiler.  A few years later it was replaced by a new one and got to see it when I was in 8th grade when we were moving some boxes of books from the old coal bin...the new one was much smaller than I remember the old one to be. 

 

Natural gas is very cheap here, and we have budget billing where they take your usage for the previous 12 months and do an average payment amount...I usually pay around $52/month year around...have seen $72/month during coldest winter months but that was before they started the "rolling average".  Everything I have is gas...kitchen range, dryer, water heater, gas grill, and have an unvented gas wall heater for emergency backup should the forced air gas furnace fail or power go out.  The only oil heat I've even heard of around here are the people who burn waste oil in modified oil furnaces/boilers.  A lot of people out of the city use wood or have those outdoor wood-fired boilers.
 
Barfing in school

I remember kids doing that in elementary school. First day of fifth grade was the last time that I remember anyone doing it and nothing in high school. If we were lucky, the teacher caught it, or most of it, in the trash can and then put sheets of drawing paper over it while someone was sent for the janitor to come clean up the floor and trash can. Oh, how I remember the fragrance of pine oil in the mop bucket. In third grade, by classmate Steve Doak was moving toward the teacher who was moving toward him with the trash can in front of her and I remember the perfect arc of puke between his mouth and the trash can. There were some teachers I would have gladly showered with puke, but did not have the opportunity.
 
over my shoulder!

When I was in kindergarten my "sweetheart" was sitting on the floor behind me during a film about Abe Lincoln and she hurled right over my shoulder...Mother came and brought me a clean shirt.  Gross!  We joked about it for 12 years!
 
Heat timer

Steam heating systems in the old NYC apartment buildings (still an awful lot of them around) adjust the heat using a "heat timer". It senses outside temperature, and adjusts the heating duty cycle accordingly.
 
I got steam heat...

I've learned more about steam heat than I ever cared to think I would know....

There are a lot of steam heating experts in the NYC metro area, but you have to be willing to call them and pay. Most buildings don't run or maintain their systems properly which leads to the too hot and too cold problems. Traps on two-pipe systems are the biggest ignored item - they need to be replaced more often than most people realize.

Originally, (probably pre-1925 or so) many systems were sized to heat with windows open due to fear of Spanish Influenza.

One pipe steam is on or off at the radiator valve or else it will leak condensate. Two pipe steam can be adjusted at the valve as hot water can be (and retrofitted with a TRV). You can fit them on the air vent on one-pipe radiators too.

Heat-timers are awful, we just got rid of ours. They don't actually sense the outside temperature, beyond a "no heat required above xx degrees" control - they base the run time on the return temperature. Ours died and we replaced it with a locally made RDS control system which uses sensors (aka thermometers/thermostats) in the units, in our case four. Much more even heat now.

We just had our system analyzed by an expert which has given us marching orders on improvements and repairs. Luckily our 1927 boiler is in good condition, however there has been a lot of knuckleheading within the units over the years - one neighbor has a) original convector in her living room b) an additional convector in her living room and c) and huge extra radiator in her living room. The additional heating units were not needed other than the board was too lazy/cheap to actually maintain and run the system as intended.
 
Different heat timers

Something at the end of a conduit poking out of a basement window was pointed out to me as the heat timer sensor.  This was in a 6-story 42-unit building built in the 1950's.  I was on the board.

 

So your heat timer sensed the return condensate temperature?  That's an averaging thermostat of sorts, I guess, except it didn't get any reading when the steam was down, and it excluded rooms where the radiator or convector was shut off.  How does your current system weight the various thermostat readings?

 

Even if the system gave the overall right amount of heat for my apartment, I hated being hot when the steam was up. Thermostatic bleed valves made a huge difference in my personal comfort level.  The board wasn't interested in installing them for everyone. Having them in use on a substantial fraction of the convectors would've required some adjustment to the system timing and maybe other parameters, I guess.
 
Those Little Twinke Shaped Boxes Poking Out of NYC Buildings

Are outdoor resets that work with the boiler's Aquastat.
http://inspectapedia.com/heat/Aquastats.php

These ODR are designed to save energy by adjusting the firing of boiler based on outdoor temperatures. While the Aquastat will work via programmed times and temperatures the latter is based on inside the boiler.

http://inspectapedia.com/heat/Aquastats.php

For instance as noted above NYC requires a minimum indoor temperature during the day based upon outdoor. You could just set the Aquastat to a specific high and low range for say 6AM to 10PM but what if it is only 40F outdoors. You really don't need to have your boiler firing up all that steam/hot water because indoor temps are not that cold. OTOH if it is say 12F outside you have a different situation. Or if it was 55F then the thing won't come on at all unless the boiler is also firing to make hot water.

These outdoor resets work well with the one pipe, no individual thermostats steam or hot water heating systems found in many NYC buildings.

Sadly TRV (Thermostatically Controlled Radiator Valves) aren't common in NYC buildings. Mostly one imagines because of the system's age and potential costs involved in retrofitting even a six floor building. http://inspectapedia.com/heat/Radiator_Valves.php

Again because so much of the steam heating systems in older buildings are one pipe retrofitting any sort of thermostat can be expensive or perhaps not even possible IIRC.

Then you have inventions like this: http://scienceline.org/2014/05/cranking-down-the-heat/
 

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