Let's Talk About Heating Shall We?

[warmsecondrinse]

Yes, definitely climate but also individual differences. For example, I frequently have cold feet while the rest of me is more than warm enough. I suspect I'd be an ideal spokesman for radiant floor heat, lol. I've seen electric radiant heat floor kits that can be used when putting down a new floor of almost any type. They're not for all situations but do allow for warm floors in situations once impossible or did not make economic sense.

Another factor that sounds bizarre is that of fuel availability. In many places any given fuel is either available reliably or not at all. It's very cut and dry. In other times/places, not so much. My cousins in Poland spent years building a house during the waning years of the communist regime. Fuel supplies were not reliable at all. Their heating system was hot water baseboard fired by TWO different boilers: One was gas. The other could burn either coal or wood. Both boilers had hot water coils for domestic supply. There were 2 tankless hot water heaters, one gas and one electric. To top it off, each room on the first floor had an electric outlet on its own circuit next to a window. Stored away were electric radiators that could be brought out and used in the event other fuels were not available. I forget the wattage, but they were the highest conventional plug-in radiators available at that time. Talk about back-ups having back-ups!

Jim

 

[gusherb]

So I woke up this morning freezing, and ended up turning the upstairs furnace on for a bit. The temps outside had gotten at least Into the mid 40s overnight. This is about the time of year I expect to turn the heat on for the first time. Last year I had to do it in late September.

Others I know may wait til it's gets into the 50s in their houses. I absolutely despise being too hot or too cold in my own home so I usually turn the heat on once it starts getting towards the mid 60s inside.

 

[Marky_Mark]

Jim, you could just add it to the bathroom floor just to take the chill of the tiles.  It's nice. 

 

I have a friend in the UK with underfloor heating fed with warm water from an ultra-efficient condensing gas boiler.  Before this, her previous house also had underfloor heating fed with warm water from a heat pump.  I used to live in an apartment in the UK with electric underfloor heating.  Very cozy, completely silent and even heating.  Kitchen/bathroom tiles lovely and warm to walk on.  I had a time-of-use tariff as my electric system was designed to heat up the concrete floor during the off-peak rate and remain warm all day.  However it was extremely slow to respond.  I once came back during winter having been away for a week and it took hours to warm the place up!

 

[countryguy]

@ twintubdexter

I wish I didn't remember frost! I hate, hate, hate the cold and snow.

 

[iej]

A few people explained to me that underfloor heating is better suited to climates with long, predictable, cold winters where there's a need to provide very steady heat for a set period of the year.

The problem here in Ireland is that you need very responsive heating as the winters aren't all that cold but the weather is highly changeable. You can sometimes need the heat on for a few hours and then not need it again for days. We've just had stunningly nice weather in late September and early October yet it was cold enough to need central heating on in June for some of the time.

Anything relying on heating slabs of concrete is simply not going to be comfortable here because you're always 24 hours behind the curve.

Also, underfloor heating is unsuitable for homes with wooden floor structures (quite common here).

There's been a bit of a fad of underfloor heating here in recent years and I haven't met anyone who is happy with it. I actually know one family who spent about €8000 retrofitting radiators to get rid of an underfloor system. They ended up feeling cold when the temperature suddenly fluctuated and then having to open windows to cool the house down when the temp rose again.

In general the advantage of radiators is you've responsive heat that can adapt rapidly to fluctuations in air temperature. If you pick the right deign of radiator you can also get very unobtrusive deigns or even very attractive looking designs that become a feature.

I don't mind a little underfloor heat in the bathrooms - that's nice and you don't mind if they're a little toasty warm but throughout the house is a bit unpleasant, certainly here.

The other issue is that it limits your choice of floor coverings - certain woods really do not like it and shrink.

 

[gusherb]

Radiant Heating

I've read a few articles and comments over the recent years about how radiant floor heat has become a bit overrated. I do tend to agree, that just like anything, there is a time and a place to use radiant floor heating. I personally live in a place where it gets brutally cold for a few months on end without any break, so radiant floor heating would be perfect here. But, at the same time, I would shy away from putting it in bedrooms as it's usually more ideal for a sleeping area to have something that responds quicker. Especially if one likes to sleep with it cooler at night. But floor heating in the bathrooms and common areas is great.
In colder climates, when you put in floor heating, it's a good idea to install some kind of auxiliary heat, most commonly in the form of a hot water coil in the (already existing for A/C in many cases) air handler, and set it up to come on when the radiant floors alone can't keep up anymore.

For the bedrooms I would put in panel radiators, and either put the zone on a single thermostat or just use TRV's on them.

A huge mistake with radiant floors that is more common then I ever thought is not putting in an outdoor reset control and not using a mixing valve on the loop to keep it from overheating. ODR when setup right can react to instant temperature changes and start heating accordingly at least a few hours before the structure starts to cool off.

In the end, my favorite heating source is cast iron radiators with hot water or steam. In my dad's building, with the thermostat on 70 and even with the windows as drafty as they are and the bitter wind practically blowing through the place, those radiators keep it so cozy and warm you wouldn't even know how drafty it really is. (and hence why it's so expensive to heat). It's actually more comfortable in there then it is in the tight, well insulated, forced air heated house.

 

[launderess]

For your chilly and rainy (for some) Friday night reading

What those old "dead men" knew....

To think they did all this in the early 1900's late 1800's with nothing more than slide rulers and so forth to work out the numbers. That and they just did the sums in their heads.

https://books.google.com/books?id=p...MI6bX1zY-lyAIVxlU-Ch3sFAD0#v=onepage&q&f=true

 

[launderess]

What a difference a week or two makes

Weekend before last it was so hot and humid in NYC had to break down and put on the AC to dry things out. This weekend was cooler so could use the fan only. Now it is out right chilly, rainy and damp. However even with outdoor temps in the 40's don't expect any heat to come on.

Have an oil filled portable radiator and *could* put that on. But for now trainer pants and shirt along with thick socks will do. If things stay really chilly over the weekend may fire up the Lavatherm condenser dryer. *LOL*

 

[jetcone]

I've read most of Dan Holohan's books

and I've taken one of his lectures. He is a fascinating talker and story teller ! He's very entertaining even if you are not there to learn about steam or hot water systems.

His book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating " helped me save my steam system of which I am enjoying tonight at 49 degrees and raining outside.

Steam heat is also the best thing for a basement, its always dry and warm in winter and that long drying period stops molds cold! Not to throw a metaphor.

 

The oversizing of systems actually started early in the 19th century. It was believe air locked in a house became "vitiated"and led to disease and so for health needed to be replaced continually. So systems were sized to run a house warm with windows open all winter!

I found when redoing my system with the wall insulation and new double pain windows I could cut my radiators down by 2/3 rds !! That meant a lot of floor space freed up and a much smaller boiler hence a much faster pickup when the thermostat calls. My boiler uses about 6 gallons of water to heat a 4 story house. ( Basement included). 

With all the new piping up from the header the system is totally quiet. You never a bang, thunk or clunk ! As Dan teaches all the Dead Men knew steam was supposed to be silent !

 

[this post was last edited: 10/2/2015-22:08]

http://www.amazon.com/The-Lost-Art-Steam-Heating/dp/0974396095

 

[warmsecondrinse]

"Steam heat is also the best thing for a basement, its always dry and warm in winter and that long drying period stops molds cold! Not to throw a metaphor."

That reminds me of when my mom and her 2 brothers convinced my grandparents that the boiler and oil tank buried in the yard (the house came that way in 1953 and there were zero problems of any kind) "had" to be replaced and updated. I looked at the 5 of them assembled and then at my grandmother and said to her, "So, what kind of dryer have you decided on?" My mom got all pissy because she knew that while it might've sounded like a non sequitur, it wasn't.

Long story short, it apparently never occurred to any of them that the basement would be much cooler, clothes wouldn't dry nearly as quickly, the newer, more efficient boiler would have to run longer because the first floor floors would now be much colder, my grandparents would lose their oil discount because they would no longer be buying 500+ gallons at a time, etc. etc. etc. They all rolled their eyes and went ahead with it.

They went ahead and did it anyway. Then everyone (except for my grandfather) acted all surprised when the basement was cooler, etc. I tried to get an explanation out of them, but I failed completely. However, I did get to enjoy the look on my mom's face when the light dawned. She was determined to make the slow person (me) understand why all this heating system upgrade was 'necessary'..... she was about 5 minutes into it when she realized she was making no sense whatsoever. Truly, her facial expression was priceless.

What's interesting was that I never did find out where this borderline hysterical need to change the boiler came from.

 

[sudsmaster]

Now that I think of it, the last year we lived in SF before I left for college, we were in a more modern apartment complex with hot water heating. It had radiators sort of like steam heating, but the complex literature said it was hot water instead of steam. Seemed to me the thing was nearly always on (it was near Lake Merced, which is in the fog belt of SF) and usually I had to leave a window open in my room to avoid getting cooked. There was a little chain you could pull to adjust the heat but again, it was always on and putting out heat - the chain didn't seem to make much difference there. The windows were nice steel framed casement windows, so they would catch a passing breeze quite well. But I was glad to be out of there and back to the mainland of California where the sun was usually out and things were not quite so sterile.

 

 

[gusherb]

The sun never came out today, the highs never got above 53. It's 9:30PM, it's 47 outside and has been misting all evening, now raining. Super damp outside, the kind of weather I hate the most of any weather (even sub zero). The house temperature has been declining all day, and now the Trane XV95 is currently humming away in second stage pulling it up from 66 to 68, then it will be cycling on and off on 1st stage from there on.

 

[norgeway]

I heat with oil...

Last winter, which for us was fairly cold, we burned one full tank of oil, about 275 gallons of number 2,which, might be more expensive than a super high efficiency heatpump in a house with insulated walls and floors....but this house was built in 53, its solid as a rock, but has no insulation other than overhead, we were warm as toast all year, Im going to do a major tune up in the next few weeks, that consists of vacuuming the entire heat exchanger and combustion changer, installing a new pump screen, oil filter and nozzle , then setting the draft , co2 and smoke testing......All my equipment is old Bacharach /Texaco equipment, but it works.And I can testify to the fact, when you come in from a trip and have the heat set on 60,then turn it up to 70 ,it takes 15 minutes tops and the whole house is warm as toast.

 

[wayupnorth]

WOW, only 275 gallons for the winter, I wish. Last winter was the coldest ever on record in this area. I have (2) 330 gallon tanks that were full 12 months ago and the gauge said they were on EMPTY after I could finally get an oil truck here this past April and had them dump 400 gallons. I have to call soon and have them fill it soon for the winter. Everything is totally insulated, thermopane windows and doors, so I cant do anything more here. I will chime in with what the final gallon amount for the year was after this next fill-up. Normally it is right around 500 gallons for heat and hot water for 12 months, but it is going to be way more than that. At least oil costs are less than half of what they were a year ago.

 

[norgeway]

BUT!

This house is only about 975 square feet, and even with no wall insulation, its built like a vault.

 

[askolover]

We gave in

yesterday as did my parents, and turned on the gas furnaces for a while.

 

[retro-man]

High Rise heat

Have they turned the heat on your building yet? We are in A/C mode here still. I would imagine it will be changed over to heat next week. Been damp rainy and in the low 50's here. Not a problem if the sun is out but haven't seen it in days. Need to pick up one of the oil filled electric heaters for temp heat. We are responsible for our own heat for June and September while the a/c is on.

Jon

 

[foraloysius]

I've had the heating on for a while now. I don't want the humidity level get too high in my apartment. I have asthma and am very allergic to mold. Better safe than sorry.

I have hot water heating, the water is heated by a high efficiency combi boiler. I use a thermostat with a timer, it's always nice and warm when I get up. Here's a picture of the combi boiler. It's very small, just about a small wall cabinet.

 

[kimball455]

WM Ultra 90 Boiler

Hi ..

Here is a picture of the WM Mod-Con boiler that heats both the house and hot water. Hot water is via an indirectly fired Triangle Tube tank in another location. I am very limited on space and this system fits in the corner of my kitchen approximately a 30x24 footprint. This picture taken during the remodel and install. Three zones of Slant Fin baseboard hot water. Very comfortable and quiet.

A/C is 4 Sanyo minisplits.

Harry

 

[warmsecondrinse]

very cool, Foraloysius. You have baseboard/radiators in your basement?

When I installed a gas boiler to replace the oil fired one (Oil company told me I had to live with the smell. Really? Your ass is so fired!), I used the hot water coil to run hot water through the basement. It worked out very nicely.

I share your obsession with mold prevention. No asthma, but severe mold allergies. Dehumidifiers are on unless humidity is under 50%.
------
Back in the 80's I read an article that stated if one had an old oil boiler in perfect working condition in one's UNinsulated full basement it was more economical to insulate the basement than to replace the boiler. Why? The basement would be warmer, making a dehumidifier run less, thereby saving electricity. Also, a higher % of the boiler's 'waste' heat would stay in the basement to warm the floors of the first floor, likely leading to equal comfort at a setting 1 or 2 degrees cooler.

IIRC< that was when 85% was an extraordinarily high level of efficiency. I don't know if it would apply today.

Jim