Miele W1918 Bearings
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Here's the other side of the spider/shaft. Again, you can see the bottom of the shaft (note, there is no discolouration. It is just the reflection of the rust patches) along with the ring of corrosion just below where the inner drum bearing was.
vacfanatic
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Wow
I would have to say the condition of the spider for the age of the washer is nothing short of remarkable. Even the couple of rust spots are clearly only surface deep, and I doubt impact the structural design in any way.
How old is this washer, and how many loads does it see in an average week?
Also, can you tell us what cleaner (CLR, Lime Away, etc) you used to remove the white caked on buildup on the back of the drum and on the spider?
I'm doing a maintenance wash in my Miele as I speak - this makes me feel much better about seeing a Generation 2000 chassis having the solid spider as I suspected. Here is a photo of a crumbling spider after only about 5 years of use on a non-Miele ;-)
Andrew
I would have to say the condition of the spider for the age of the washer is nothing short of remarkable. Even the couple of rust spots are clearly only surface deep, and I doubt impact the structural design in any way.
How old is this washer, and how many loads does it see in an average week?
Also, can you tell us what cleaner (CLR, Lime Away, etc) you used to remove the white caked on buildup on the back of the drum and on the spider?
I'm doing a maintenance wash in my Miele as I speak - this makes me feel much better about seeing a Generation 2000 chassis having the solid spider as I suspected. Here is a photo of a crumbling spider after only about 5 years of use on a non-Miele ;-)
Andrew
3beltwesty
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Graham;
Thanks for the images!
***My old shaft's wear in it's brass seal surface looked machined too; machined by the water seals lips!
ie the wear machined a goove exactly where the seals lip is!
Thus that is why limey and me here and others saw those groove and assumed they are wear features. If the groove lines up with the; think possible seal wear too.
The Miele W1918 is a 24" frame machine; thus that drum must me about 19 to 20" in diameter? The 1976 westy 27" frame drum is 22" diameter. that must be a 24" sink?
Your spider looks in decent shape. To survive corrosion items should be thick.
Please post some images of the spider when it is all cleaned up; I think all of us with hokey new disposable spiders want to look at the Miele!
I wonder what metal it is made of; and it cast, forged or machined out of bar stick via cnc mill.
The drum from my 1976 westy had scum like stuff that was like bathtub ring crud that came off with slight acid based tub cleaner!
I wonder if the spider is isolated from the drum too. Ie can you "ohm it out" with an ohmmeter to educate us too!
Thanks for the images!
***My old shaft's wear in it's brass seal surface looked machined too; machined by the water seals lips!
ie the wear machined a goove exactly where the seals lip is!
Thus that is why limey and me here and others saw those groove and assumed they are wear features. If the groove lines up with the; think possible seal wear too.
The Miele W1918 is a 24" frame machine; thus that drum must me about 19 to 20" in diameter? The 1976 westy 27" frame drum is 22" diameter. that must be a 24" sink?
Your spider looks in decent shape. To survive corrosion items should be thick.
Please post some images of the spider when it is all cleaned up; I think all of us with hokey new disposable spiders want to look at the Miele!
I wonder what metal it is made of; and it cast, forged or machined out of bar stick via cnc mill.
The drum from my 1976 westy had scum like stuff that was like bathtub ring crud that came off with slight acid based tub cleaner!
I wonder if the spider is isolated from the drum too. Ie can you "ohm it out" with an ohmmeter to educate us too!
A final photo, showing the stamp on the cast spider.
I would very much appreciate input from everyone as to whether the machine is worth rebuilding and whether it would be reliable as a primary machine afterwards.
I originally purchased the W1918 (knowing something had failed) for $50 with the intention of swapping the leaking door seal and electronics (delay/count-down timer) into my perfectly functional W1903. Along the way, I figured I may as well figure out exactly what was wrong with the W1918 and decide if it is worth fixing (I would then use the W1903 as a 'functioning' parts spare). I may pull the top off my W1903 and inspect the rear of the drum with a mirror/light to see if there is a similar rust/grease stain before deciding what to do next. The W1903 certainly has no bearing play/noise compared with what I felt on the W1918.
As for whether this is a cost-effective repair for an out-of-warranty Miele machine. A 10hr budget seems like a pretty reasonable estimate given what I've encountered. I agree this isn't the sort of repair that a tech is going to do in a house call.
I would very much appreciate input from everyone as to whether the machine is worth rebuilding and whether it would be reliable as a primary machine afterwards.
I originally purchased the W1918 (knowing something had failed) for $50 with the intention of swapping the leaking door seal and electronics (delay/count-down timer) into my perfectly functional W1903. Along the way, I figured I may as well figure out exactly what was wrong with the W1918 and decide if it is worth fixing (I would then use the W1903 as a 'functioning' parts spare). I may pull the top off my W1903 and inspect the rear of the drum with a mirror/light to see if there is a similar rust/grease stain before deciding what to do next. The W1903 certainly has no bearing play/noise compared with what I felt on the W1918.
As for whether this is a cost-effective repair for an out-of-warranty Miele machine. A 10hr budget seems like a pretty reasonable estimate given what I've encountered. I agree this isn't the sort of repair that a tech is going to do in a house call.
3beltwesty
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Spider looks great
The Miele spider is better than that space age thin spider; better since it is thick and dumb.
That is why cannon balls and cannons last in the ocean since 1500 and aluminum foil lasts days here in salt water.
The whole concept of the space age cad designed spider with thin webs actually has gobs of surface area and little thickness; a great combo for a thing to die due to corrosion. It is a great design for something to dissolve quickly; ie maker the product fail.
None of his is rocket science; it was understood a few thousand years ago. This that are big in cross section last longer, whether a nail or a fence post 4000 years ago.
Just the shaft alone was been about 155 bucks for eons for my 1976 westy; recently I got one for only 40 bucks.
I bet the Miele spider/shaft assembly is at least 250 bucks or more
Is the spider steel or aluminum?
Steel weighs about 0.28 lbs per cubic inch; alumimum about 0.1 ish.
The Miele spider is better than that space age thin spider; better since it is thick and dumb.
That is why cannon balls and cannons last in the ocean since 1500 and aluminum foil lasts days here in salt water.
The whole concept of the space age cad designed spider with thin webs actually has gobs of surface area and little thickness; a great combo for a thing to die due to corrosion. It is a great design for something to dissolve quickly; ie maker the product fail.
None of his is rocket science; it was understood a few thousand years ago. This that are big in cross section last longer, whether a nail or a fence post 4000 years ago.
Just the shaft alone was been about 155 bucks for eons for my 1976 westy; recently I got one for only 40 bucks.
I bet the Miele spider/shaft assembly is at least 250 bucks or more
Is the spider steel or aluminum?
Steel weighs about 0.28 lbs per cubic inch; alumimum about 0.1 ish.
I was told by the fellow who sold it, that the machine was used more-or-less daily for a family of 5 and I believe he said it was 8 or 9 years old. I doubt it ever saw a citric-acid wash cycle.
As for the cleaner, I started with plain white vinegar when the spider was still attached to the drum and switched to diluted CLR on the spider. Anything more acidic than vinegar will make a mess of cheaper stainless in my experience. I followed with a dilute ammonia wash.
The scaling, was most certinaly lime with whatever detergent salts wanted to linger. Lake Ontario water is considered 'moderate' in terms of water hardness and city water averages at 120 milligram/litre or 8.4 grains/imperial gallon.
The sink is a 21" wide. The inner drum is 19 1/2" in diameter. The outer drum is 22" (top-bottom) and 21" (wide). The W1918/W1903 are the Miele 5kg series, and have a frame width of about 23 1/2".
As for the cleaner, I started with plain white vinegar when the spider was still attached to the drum and switched to diluted CLR on the spider. Anything more acidic than vinegar will make a mess of cheaper stainless in my experience. I followed with a dilute ammonia wash.
The scaling, was most certinaly lime with whatever detergent salts wanted to linger. Lake Ontario water is considered 'moderate' in terms of water hardness and city water averages at 120 milligram/litre or 8.4 grains/imperial gallon.
The sink is a 21" wide. The inner drum is 19 1/2" in diameter. The outer drum is 22" (top-bottom) and 21" (wide). The W1918/W1903 are the Miele 5kg series, and have a frame width of about 23 1/2".
"Is the spider steel or aluminum?"
It's pretty heavy and definitely cast. It's also magnetic which, with the rust indicates, at least some ferrous material. As for whether it is
I don't even want to guess what a shaft/spider would cost from Miele.
"I wonder if the spider is isolated from the drum too. Ie can you "ohm it out" with an ohmmeter to educate us too!"
I cannot imagine it could be as it the stainless inner drum is bolted directly to the cast spider. There does appear to be a grounding wire, bolted to the drum weights (# 19/20 in the diagram).
It's pretty heavy and definitely cast. It's also magnetic which, with the rust indicates, at least some ferrous material. As for whether it is
I don't even want to guess what a shaft/spider would cost from Miele.
"I wonder if the spider is isolated from the drum too. Ie can you "ohm it out" with an ohmmeter to educate us too!"
I cannot imagine it could be as it the stainless inner drum is bolted directly to the cast spider. There does appear to be a grounding wire, bolted to the drum weights (# 19/20 in the diagram).
cfz2882
Well-known member
nice spider!-no corrosion problems there,almost looks like forged steel the
way the shaft is welded on.Could be "cast"steel also.Looks like the seal
sleeve is replacable too,real quality.
way the shaft is welded on.Could be "cast"steel also.Looks like the seal
sleeve is replacable too,real quality.
Spider Defects?
Now I am doing an awful lot of guessing here.
1. The seal landing looks like stainless steel. If it were mild steel like the shaft it would have corroded where it is in contact with the water.
2. I agree with 3beltwesty the grooves in the landing sleeve are likely made by the lips of the seal. Looks like a 3 lip seal.
3. The black ‘rubber’ plug on the back of the spider is likely fitted to keep water from the end of the steel shaft. Looking at the distortion of this plug and the rust stains coming from its periphery I would guess that water has got behind the plug and the end of the mild steel shaft is corroded with the build up of corrosion products causing the distortion of the plug.
3a How did the water get behind the plug? Leakage by the plug is possible but I think it is more likely that there has been some leakage down the shaft after the seal failed and allowed water into the bearing housing.
3b The other possibility is that what ever seals the flange of the seal landing to the spider has failed and allowed water to seep in between the seal landing and the shaft. I do not think this has happened because there are no ‘rust stains’ on the spider coming from the periphery of the flange of the landing sleeve.
4. Looking closely at the photograph in post 498070 I agree with 3beltwesty, those look like cracks to me. This is further emphasised by the rust streaks emanating from them. To me this means that those fractures extend all the way to the ‘chamber’ behind the ‘rubber’ plug. Additionally look at the very fine lines running from the ends of the ‘wider black line’ these look like, and I emphasise ‘look like’ hairline cracks to me. An easy way to check is a dye penetrant check. A local workshop/machine shop should be able to help out there.
5. I am puzzled by Graham’s statement that the spider is magnetic. I cannot help wondering where on the spider he made that test
Now I am doing an awful lot of guessing here.
1. The seal landing looks like stainless steel. If it were mild steel like the shaft it would have corroded where it is in contact with the water.
2. I agree with 3beltwesty the grooves in the landing sleeve are likely made by the lips of the seal. Looks like a 3 lip seal.
3. The black ‘rubber’ plug on the back of the spider is likely fitted to keep water from the end of the steel shaft. Looking at the distortion of this plug and the rust stains coming from its periphery I would guess that water has got behind the plug and the end of the mild steel shaft is corroded with the build up of corrosion products causing the distortion of the plug.
3a How did the water get behind the plug? Leakage by the plug is possible but I think it is more likely that there has been some leakage down the shaft after the seal failed and allowed water into the bearing housing.
3b The other possibility is that what ever seals the flange of the seal landing to the spider has failed and allowed water to seep in between the seal landing and the shaft. I do not think this has happened because there are no ‘rust stains’ on the spider coming from the periphery of the flange of the landing sleeve.
4. Looking closely at the photograph in post 498070 I agree with 3beltwesty, those look like cracks to me. This is further emphasised by the rust streaks emanating from them. To me this means that those fractures extend all the way to the ‘chamber’ behind the ‘rubber’ plug. Additionally look at the very fine lines running from the ends of the ‘wider black line’ these look like, and I emphasise ‘look like’ hairline cracks to me. An easy way to check is a dye penetrant check. A local workshop/machine shop should be able to help out there.
5. I am puzzled by Graham’s statement that the spider is magnetic. I cannot help wondering where on the spider he made that test
3beltwesty
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By magnetic I think Graham means the Y shaped spider is iron based ferric; ie a cast steel or forging so a magnetic will stick to it.
With my 1976 Westy stamped and welded steel drum the steel shaft is screwed in the steel drum and has a left hand thread. The shaft has a 45 degree chamfer right by the brass seal surface; and there is a rubber 0-ring to prevent the threads from rusting. In the pre say 1988? westy's the drum only revolves one direction; thus a simple left hand thread works. In the roughly 1988 to 1993? models there is a torquer motor and one belt; the drum rotates CCW and CW via a controller and thus the shaft is now tacked in place. ie it is now part of the drum and not field replaceable.
On your Miele, does it only rotate one direction; or does it flop both CCW and CW? That shaft might be with screw threads and screwed in place like the 1940 to 1988 westys; or it might tack welded too after being screwed in if both CCW and CW rotations are used. OR it might be splined and pressed in too.
That black goop probably hides the end of the shaft is my guess too.
The sealing surface to me looks like a stainless steel cylinder that is heated and dropped in place.
Small cracks can be polished out to halt the progression of the crack. Sometimes a crack can be a fooler; ie one has the surface crack going to China through the entire part. As already mentioned an engine rebuild shop can magnaflux the part to see where and if there are cracks. Since it is an oddball job and no risk to them you cost might be little.
Old school had one welding up cracks on car engine heads, adding plugs; drilling holes to halt cracks too. A TIG welder add radically less heating than a Stick or arc or wire welder. The danger is the Y spider should not be fixed by a hot weld job; and ruined with drunk runout of the shaft no longer being perpendicular. Often is is better to just use the old part with cracks if minor.
With my 1976 Westy stamped and welded steel drum the steel shaft is screwed in the steel drum and has a left hand thread. The shaft has a 45 degree chamfer right by the brass seal surface; and there is a rubber 0-ring to prevent the threads from rusting. In the pre say 1988? westy's the drum only revolves one direction; thus a simple left hand thread works. In the roughly 1988 to 1993? models there is a torquer motor and one belt; the drum rotates CCW and CW via a controller and thus the shaft is now tacked in place. ie it is now part of the drum and not field replaceable.
On your Miele, does it only rotate one direction; or does it flop both CCW and CW? That shaft might be with screw threads and screwed in place like the 1940 to 1988 westys; or it might tack welded too after being screwed in if both CCW and CW rotations are used. OR it might be splined and pressed in too.
That black goop probably hides the end of the shaft is my guess too.
The sealing surface to me looks like a stainless steel cylinder that is heated and dropped in place.
Small cracks can be polished out to halt the progression of the crack. Sometimes a crack can be a fooler; ie one has the surface crack going to China through the entire part. As already mentioned an engine rebuild shop can magnaflux the part to see where and if there are cracks. Since it is an oddball job and no risk to them you cost might be little.
Old school had one welding up cracks on car engine heads, adding plugs; drilling holes to halt cracks too. A TIG welder add radically less heating than a Stick or arc or wire welder. The danger is the Y spider should not be fixed by a hot weld job; and ruined with drunk runout of the shaft no longer being perpendicular. Often is is better to just use the old part with cracks if minor.
If you look carefully, you can see that the cast surface appears very uniform (bead blasted?) except where pitted. The rust stains are located around each pitted area. For example, the photo below shows a pit mark near the middle of one arm. If you look at the photo in post, 498070 you can see two pitted areas at the centre of each rust patch. One on the arm, the other between the arms.
As for "where" the spider is magnetic, it is magnetic everywhere... from the tip of the Y to the centre.
It is actually a black plastic cover on the back of the spider which covers a solid mass of grey goop inside. There is no evidence of rust leaking from within the grey goop. Yes, it seems to cover the shaft end.
I'd like to hear from eddy1210's friend, the Miele tech. if it is at all possible.
As for "where" the spider is magnetic, it is magnetic everywhere... from the tip of the Y to the centre.
It is actually a black plastic cover on the back of the spider which covers a solid mass of grey goop inside. There is no evidence of rust leaking from within the grey goop. Yes, it seems to cover the shaft end.
I'd like to hear from eddy1210's friend, the Miele tech. if it is at all possible.
Not sure a dye test will do much good given the surface characteristics and difference between the smooth and rough/pitted cast. My experience with such tests is very mixed even with clean and very uniform casts.
I've attempted to annotate two photos to show the pitted areas. I may take a dremel with a small grinding wheel into the joint where the molten metal and pitted surface meet.
The questions that remain:
1) would anyone here re-use this spider given what the photos show?
2) Would you expect it to give another 5-10 years of service?
3) Do I need to worry about those grooves in the seal landing?
I've attempted to annotate two photos to show the pitted areas. I may take a dremel with a small grinding wheel into the joint where the molten metal and pitted surface meet.
The questions that remain:
1) would anyone here re-use this spider given what the photos show?
2) Would you expect it to give another 5-10 years of service?
3) Do I need to worry about those grooves in the seal landing?
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