Miele W1918 Bearings

[GrahamW]

Not sure a dye test will do much good given the surface characteristics and difference between the smooth and rough/pitted cast. My experience with such tests is very mixed even with clean and very uniform casts.

I've attempted to annotate two photos to show the pitted areas. I may take a dremel with a small grinding wheel into the joint where the molten metal and pitted surface meet.

The questions that remain:
1) would anyone here re-use this spider given what the photos show?
2) Would you expect it to give another 5-10 years of service?
3) Do I need to worry about those grooves in the seal landing?

 

[limey]

Spider Defects

OK Graham.
Thanks for the clarification above.
From what you say, and looking at the photograph in post 498192 it now seems that the spider is steel (cast or forged) [cast iron would be a real female dog to weld] and that it has been coated (galvanised) by the look of it. It also explains the rust streaks coming from the cracks. I am more convinced than ever now that they are cracks.
My theory about water getting behind the plug is now nullified.
My opinion now is that the spider is ‘toast’, trying to gouge out and weld up those fractures will likely ruin the alignment of the shaft to the spider and then the cost of recoating?
It appears that the spider is made up of four steel parts (cast or forged) welded together, 3 arms and a hub. I am not sure if the shaft, also of steel, is welded or shrunk into the hub at this stage, or even as 3beltwesty suggests, splined and then welded. I would be surprised if it were screwed and welded but at this stage it cannot be ruled out either.
As for Graham’s questions in post 498201
1. I would not reuse the spider.
2. I would not expect to get another 5 years from the spider. Added to which you will soon, in my opinion, start to get rust marks on your laundry, particularly the lighter items.
3. I think you do need to be concerned about the grooves in the seal landing. Assuming that the landing was initially flat (machining grooves like that and maintaining the tolerances for fit up so that the lips of the seal fitted exactly into those grooves would add, very significantly, to the cost of the machine [to no useful purpose in my view]) it would mean that a standard size seal would have less pressure on the lips to produce a seal than it was originally designed to exert.

 

[GrahamW]

limey, thanks for your input.

 

[GrahamW]

It might be worth noting that there's a youtube video showing the bearing change on a similar vintage machine and if you look carefully, you can see similar groves, low on the shaft (skip to 2:20 on the 1st video if you are short on time). I do wonder what that spider looks like and whether it is still in working order.

First part:


Second part:

 

[launderess]

"Aunt Bea, Call Da Man" *LOL*

As Andy Griffth would say.

Contact Miele tech support and explain what you've done so far and explain (or if they will allow send pictures), of what the spider and or other parts look like.

You need to find out from those whom know best what something should or should not look like. As with top loaders here, there is normally a reason parts come as a "set",and it takes some experience to know what old parts can stay or go.

FWIW, one can find Miele spiders off the shelf (as I've said often about other such parts), in the UK and EU. However at $235 British Pounds,(roughly 402 USD)cannot imagine what Miele USA will charge, that is if they will even sell you the part. Given it's size, shape and weight, shipping is going to be dear as well.

Another option, depending upon your language skills of course, is to post a query on one of the Yahoo or other "appliance" or "washer" groups in Germany or other parts of western Europe. You will probably find a few persons with experience in these matters,including perhaps former Miele employees and or trained servicemen.

Unlike North America where Miele has tight control over almost every aspect of sales, parts and service, on the other side of the pond things are different.

 

[cfz2882]

spider looks to be in very good condition from what i can see-i'd replace
the seal sleeve and run it-looks like a real quality machine well worth the
repair effort.

 

[GrahamW]

I received an e-mail asking why I thought the spider was welded together and asking what the texture/color of the underlying material was. I hope this one photo answers both questions.

Between these two spider arms, it almost looks like a touch-up weld or a start/end point with an accumulation of material which isn't quite adhered to the previous bead. Despite the appearance of rust, even a metal blob like the one in pink (with rust all around it) seems well adhered.

 

[3beltwesty]

More than one half of repair folks would reuse that old spider; but state the life might be less than expected.

They too would actually quote on the replacement cost of the new spider too; so you as a customer are in the decision loop. Ie do you want to pay say 400 ? bucks more for a new spider?

Jets are placed back in service all the time with cracks; the issue is one replaces before safety is an issue.

 

[launderess]

Maybe. OTHO Maybe Not.

Bearing replacement on front loading washers on the other side of the pond are jobs some repair persons love, others hate.

There is a reason why so many parts for this sort of job are available DIY, just the same as seal replacement kits for top loaders here; for the amount of work involved versus price it often does not pay for a service call.

Even under warranty (usually the only way most will bother), a repair is alloted a certain amount of time. This can be divided into sessions, say "X" to diagnose, "X" to strip down, "X" to replace/repair, and finally "X" to put everything back together...

Washer makers or whomever is paying for the warranty call, will allot an experienced service person (and his helpers if required) usually only one to two hours for "bearing replacement". If upon getting the washer apart things are more than what was supposed (bent spindle, spider, etc), then things will get interesting.

Even if the bearings have gone, and or were causing the original complaint, if other problems are found that if not addressed would simply wear out the replacment parts again quite soon, a choice has to be made. Either pay for the additonal parts and or labour, or scrap the whole idea and buy new.

If one is paying for the service call out of pocket, it probably will run >500 USD excluding parts. With the entire job coming near either the cost of a "decent" new washer or darn close to a hefty down payment. Unlike the United States, front loaders of "average" quality do not cost an arm and leg in the UK/EU. This is why bearing replacments are most always DIY, warranty service calls. For the average person it simply does not pay.

Miele washers in particular are problem due to the rather properitary nature of the company. Unlike other brands where one part may work for several machines, Miele parts are only for their machines. Nor is the company terribly liberal with advice and such.

If the spider needs to go (and am not saying the one pictured above does not does not), and it simply is put back into service, what happens several months or a few years later? If the thing goes and or damages the new bearing/seals you are looking at another expensive service call.

 

[3beltwesty]

Re Prices

RE
"Unlike the United States, front loaders of "average" quality do not cost an arm and leg in the UK/EU. This is why bearing replacments are most always DIY, warranty service calls. For the average person it simply does not pay.
"

When I was shopping for a "get be by" washer last fall to get by while I rebuilt my 1976 westy; I almost was going to buy the starter TL washer here.

At last Novembers super sales; a starter TL washer was about 239 ish dollars; the bottom FL washer 349 dollars.

Thus I ponder about ""Unlike the United States, front loaders of "average" quality do not cost an arm and leg in the UK/EU."

At the sale I bought my LG WM2501 HWA for 599 US dollars; one sale from 899. There was a non sale Maytag FL for about 495 too.

There were about roughly eight FL washers in this area on sale for less than 600 bucks us.

***Is this a lot of money compared to Europes average FL washers?

Average Joe and Jane in the USA who buy a 500 to 600 dollar FL washer and its spider breaks in 3 to 7 years will not rebuild it. They will get this giant estimate and thus either junk the machine; or repair it themselves.

 

[GrahamW]

"Miele washers in particular are problem due to the rather properitary nature of the company. Unlike other brands where one part may work for several machines, Miele parts are only for their machines. Nor is the company terribly liberal with advice and such"

I've actually had a pretty good experience dealing with Miele Canada, especially with getting information. I simply explained that I have the tools and experience to do most repairs and they were quite forthcoming. They sent me a complete parts list and exploded diagrams for both my washer and dryer when I asked for them. I've written seeking their opinion regarding the spider and will post if I get a reply. As for their parts prices, they are high, but so is the initial cost of ownership. They are no worse than the average VW or MB dealership in my experience. In fact, working on my Miele laundry machines often reminds me of working on my German cars... You sometimes need to scratch your head to figure out how it comes apart but it is usually very simple and almost always well engineered.

The spider/shaft condition is a bit of a dissappointment for me as I was really hoping that putting a few $$$ into this machine would have it running for another decade. I hesitate to say it, but the material choice/design of the irreplacable collet has the smell of planned obsolescence which is something I'm not a fan of.

 

[cfz2882]

seal collet

miele does not sell that collet as a seperate piece?

 

[GrahamW]

"miele does not sell that collet as a seperate piece?"

It remains to be seen. The shaft and spider are neither shown in the exploded parts diagram nor described in the parts listing Miele sent me. The collet/seal landing may be shown as #5 in the diagram, but there is no description or part # for it.

 

[launderess]

Well, That Depends

Upon what you consider the useful life of front loading washing machine.

Miele boasts (at least as far as their older models are concerned), some of the longest, if not the longest life span. While the oft used quote is "twenty years tested performance", what Miele actually means that under tested conditions (about two or three wash loads per day), a washer of a vintage period should last on average about twenty years.

However in your case, as probably many others whom have purchased used Miele units, the conditions of previous use are known. Constant over loading of the washer, use of wrong and or too much detergent, and or other forms of "abuse", would cause parts to wear out sooner than they should.

From what one has read on various European washer forums, lower final spin washers tend on balance to out last those with speeds >1200.

The 1900 series was Miele's first with spin speeds at 1600rpms. As noted upthread using high speed spin speeds with unbalanced loads more than one should, is going to have an effect on some parts.

My guess is somewhere in Germany at sometime, someone sat down and ran the numbers. How long should bearings, seals, shaft et al other parts last under "normal" condition, cost of repair (if parts go under warranty), expected duty life cycle, and other factors to reach a number for making part specs.

 

[sudsmaster]

That scale is most likely limestone - the product of washing soda (sodium carbonate) combining with calcium and/or magnesium in the tap water AND in the dirt in the soil on the laundry and forming an insoluble precipitate.

One way to help prevent this sort of thing is to use a good non-precipitating water softener, such as STPP, with every load.

As for the spider - I'm wondering if it's cast magnetic stainless steel. That sort of alloy can be corroded, a bit, but nowhere near as quickly as a regular steel would get corroded.

When my Neptune had its three year mark rebuild, I got to see the spider. It's aluminum and rather beefy, but it had turned jet black with all the hot water loads, perhaps also due to the phosphates in the mix. The original spider had cracked (probably a mfg defect). It's been running fine with phosphates on the replacement spider for the past seven years.

As for pulling the bearing... I would suggest using a three-jaw puller next time (Pep Boys has a good one for about $50). Less chance of the bearing cocking and making the removal more difficult than it need be. And of course I'm sure you must have used a penetrant like PB Blast, which is great for freeing corroded fasteners etc.

 

[limey]

Spider Construction

Having seen Graham’s last photograph, in post 498433, I have to revise my idea of the number of pieces that constitute the spider. The hub and arms are obviously one piece, not the four I previously thought. The welding close to the edge of the hub appeared to run down the side of the arm, however the latest photograph clearly shows otherwise.
Graham’s notation that the area under the flange of the seal collar is machined leads me to believe that the attachment of the shaft to the hub is by a penetration weld (full or partial) that has then been machined to give a smooth landing for the collar and whatever seals it to the spider. The photograph in post 498059 also shows welding outside the line of the plug, and also extending over the natural line of spider. I have to ask myself why is there welding that far out from what would appear to be the normally expected diameter of the shaft. The only thing I can think of is a penetration weld (full or partial) to attach the shaft to the hub.
The point about the seal landing not being replaceable, with a manufacturer’s supplied spare, on its own, is well taken. The arrangement is the same for the Frigidaire (Electrolux) built machine shown in post 498060. You have to purchase the whole spider and drum assembly just to obtain a new seal landing, should you follow the manufacturer’s instructions.
Reading this thread and others I am led to believe that Miele have changed the material of their spiders from steel to an aluminium alloy.

 

[launderess]

Well I'm No Model But No One Disputes How I Wear Clothe

*LOL*

Methinks the shaft does not come separately and is part of the inner drum as a unit. Thus one would need a new inner drum & the rear drum bearing assembly kits/clips, and so froth.

One says this because to our mind's eye how could the shaft, a part which literally supports the weight of the tub, especially when full of wet laundry, be "replaced" without making sure a new part was so affixed to the drum as to continue that function.

Far eaiser to do a repair by swapping out drums and replacing bearings/seals/clips, etc than pfaffing around trying to remove and replace an old shaft. I mean who is going to do the welding?

 

[3beltwesty]

My take as a Mechanical engineer is that shaft, seal sleeve and Y shafted steel Spider is one assembly when the unit is made; but it may or may not be an item one can purchase as a repair item.

You will have to ask them.

It may only be bundled with the stainless steel spin basket too. Thus one has to buy the "spin basket + shaft with seal surface + spider"

Unless you ask them you will never know.

Since item #11 just shows the spin basket and the spider and shaft is hidden behind it; my gut feeling is #11 might be : "spin basket + shaft with seal surface + spider".

Some front load Sears washers have one having to buy the spin basket too; when the spider breaks since they do not sell the spider/shafts by itself.

If a new seal's mating diameter is smaller than that shaft's sealing sleeves wear features; the new seal can still seal OK. On could make another sleeve out of brass and replace the old one if a machinist too.

If you were on a desert island of on a budget one would just use the old spider with new ball bearings and new seals and roll the dice. It might last 2 to 10 years too.

A purist with a oil well will have you replacing all worn stuff. A Sears basket & Spider assembly on some machines was sometimes 250 to 350 with shipping. A Meile would be more>

Contact Miele and find out what #11 costs and is it with the spider/shaft; or can one buy it as a separate item.

Launderess ; one Westinghouse FL washers made from about 1940 to 1988 the shaft is replaceable if worn. The shaft screws in with a left hand thread and is a replaceable item. The spin basket on these machines only turns one way; thus the thread is self locking. In more modern machines the trend is the shaft is part of a spider and not replaceable. Without looking at the Miele more it is not clear if it is splined, screwed in; or dropped in a counterbore/hole and welded. If I designed that part I would have the spider as one piece and the shaft made as another piece then them assembled/pressed and then welded. If the Miele rotates both CCW and CW the shaft is not screwed in; unless it is tack welded at the top.

 

[launderess]

Well I Guess We Will Never Know!

*LOL*

 

[GrahamW]

It's a parts machine

Miele Canada wants $200+ for the inner bearing and seal and another $75 for the outer bearing. The spider/drum is not available in Canada. I enquired about the condition of the spider in an e-mail (with pictures attached) but, Miele Canada does not provide technical support via e-mail. I've had no response from Miele, USA. I could get bearings for much less on ebay from Europe but I can't see the point given the likelihood of the the seal leaking due to the shaft wear and the prospect of rusty whites from the spider. There have actually been quite a few W19xx series machines showing up on kijiji/craigslist here and given their age + the cost of parts, I think it is fair to conclude these machines are nearing the end of their useful life for most people.

So, I'm going back to my original plan which was to swap the electronics/timer/controls (and anything else needed) from the W1918 and put it into my W1903 (which shows no signs of bearing trouble). The latter works fine, but the door seal is torn and leaks slightly. With these new smart-grid electric meters, my wife has been complaining that we needed a count-down/delay timer for the washer. That was the impetus for picking up the W1918 in the first place. If we limit the spin speed to 1200rpm, I hope it will last a few more years or at least until the kids are out of diapers. This will also leave me with a fair selection of used parts if I have any failures. The remainder of the W1918 will likely go for scrap which, by the sounds of it, is pretty much the only cost-effective thing you can do once the bearings go.

If there is anything else anyone would like a photo of, let me know.