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Moffat Built in

Kevin

Apologies for the delay in responding, last week was a weel from hell workwise and I was two shades of green - partly over the oven and partly over the pantry/laundry room - you guys are lucky to have so much space. Anyway, I have decided that jolly green giant is not a good look on me, so moving on .....

I posted a link above to an ebay ad for a Moffat oven, well here it is ....

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Brace yourself - its a big 'un

Not half, I thougght it would have fitted in the back of my hatchback as I just recently had quite a large dryer in there - WRONG! So I had a 12 mile journey home with the back door of the car tied down and me hoping for the best. Inspite of having to drive up one or two rather steep hills all was well.

I had neither time or energy to wire it up, and as it was stored outside (under cover) there are a lot of dust and cob webs on it. I did clean up the exterior though - as my mother would have said "it had the dirt of years".

Here is the inside of the oven - the "stay clean" linings were not at all bad given that its 40+ years old. It is unusual to have a stay clean panel for the floor, those were normally vitreous enamel. I could not find a ratings plate but this was definatly manufactured in the UK. There is no fan in this even (did not expect one) but it does have a roasting meter - very unusual and it will be interesting to try it out

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Elements

Now this gives me an oppertunity to demonstrate the difference between British and US ovens of that time. The side panels hang on rails and the elemenets are behind them - one on each side. This was how all electric ovens were at that time unless they had a fan, although even then I suspect they used the same panels but with no elements behind them

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Al, what do you figure was the reason for having two elements along the side as opposed to one on the bottom? Conventional wisdom being that heat rises and all that but since an oven interior is such a small confined space may obliterate that. As well, two elements, two connections, more wiring = higher cost to manufacture etc.
I was thinking it might actually be less even for say baking two pies or loaves side by side as rightly or wrongly assuming that the closer the pans are to the sides of the oven/elements, those sides are going to get hotter that the middle.
 
Here's someone in Hamilton selling the same old Moffat stove we had. When mom redid her kitchen she went with a new standard width stove width between the cabinets fearing that if the old Moffat died or she had to sell the house it would look odd having a big gap of space leftover. My sister took it figuring they'd possibly use it one day but ended up giving it away. Look what this person is asking.. $1000.00 yikes

 
Evolution

Pete

I am now wandering into the fields of speculation but I think it was more a matter or evolution than anything else - that an the fact that the UK is an island. This style of oven layout was not seen in Euroope either - to the best of my knowledge.

I think a lot of it stems from the fact that we did not have any tradition of having the grill (broiler) in the oven. Right from the earliest days of electric cookers the grill was usually combined with a large rectangular hot plate on the hob. The grill element was lattice of spiral wound wire which would glow red hot when switched on - rather like electric heaters. To use it as a grill a special pan with a wire tray would be inserted on runners underneath it. As a hotplate (and it was pretty useless as such) a reflector would be inserted instead. So it was common to have a cavity under the hob for the grill - this space could also be used for warming a few plates as well either from heat from the grill or from the oven underneath.

So there was no "top" element in the oven to start with, so no inducement to supplement this with a bottom element. Add to this that in most early electric cookers (from the 1920s onwards) the control panel was placed adjacent to the oven which would narrow the space even more - remember that most cookers (except the most luxury models) would only have been 20-24 inches wide - so the ability to place something like two cake pans side by side was practically impossible, so this design may have been adopted to assist in the distribution of heat and make the temperature more uniform, particularly in comparison to gas, with whom there was a great rivilary - gas being more established in the market to begin with.

There was also the added benefit that the panels were easily removeable for cleaning - stay clean linings only arriving in the early 1970s - you will see from the picture I posted above that, although the Moffat oven has been well used, the oven walls behind the linings are spotless and I am sure they were never cleaned.

With the almost universal adoption of eye level grills in gas cookers at the end of the 1950s some electric cookers followed that same style (and some with ovenettes/rotesseries as discussed above), while others retained the under hob grill (the hob having 3 or 4 coil elements as seen in the USA/Canada and the grill entirely independent) and usually a stoarge compartment or drawer under the oven - this sometimes had a heating element too. As time went on, especially with larger models (and I am talking 21/22 inch wide vs 18/20inch), the grill cavity was made larger and the oven lowered, at the expense of the storage compartment underneath - a definate case of form over function as not only did you lose the storage space, but the oven was also significantly lower. There was now almost always a drop down door over the grill compartment too so inevitably, as a means of adding more features, the compartment became more insulated and the grill was combined with a fully thermostatically controlled smaller oven - and so our tradition of double ovens was established and continues to this day and almost universally too. Ironically, this arrangement used top and bottom heat, although the bottom element (if there was one) was not exposed this is the common arrangement in European ovens.

This carried on up to the mid 1980s or so. By this time the UK designs were starting to look very long in the tooth and, as the market for kitchen renovations really took off, there was a wide scale adoption of European and particularly the German Neff and Bosch ovens - often bundled in as part of the renovation package. The common arrangement, when not having split level, was to have a single oven (which could equally been used as a wall oven) built in under a hob. In many respects this was a retrograde step for not only were there no easily removeable or stay clean linings - heat was top/bottom or fan (convention) and the grill was in the oven, but it was a return to the hated solid rings which had been phased out in the UK 20 years before in favour of more controllable coil rings. Coil rings seem to have never been adopted in Europe - I wonder why?

As the UK manufactured units struggled against European imports (and some a great deal cheaper and far inferior quality to the Neff/Bosch units) this apparently unique oven arrangement seems to have died away - aided and abetted by the almost universal adoption of fan ovens in all but the very cheapest units. The fan arrangement did not require the side mounted elements so the walls of the oven could be moulded to fit the shelves or what seems to be much more common now and much cheaper to manufacture - wire grids on each side to support the shelves. In fairness these do make the ovens easier to clean as well.

I cannot think of a free standing standard sized cooker which offers combinations of top/bottom and fan cooking -its either one or the other and mostly fan. It is quite common in wall ovens to have a choice of one type or the other - apparently top/bottom is consider better for baking than fan, although personally I prefer fan (convection) for everything.

Finally, there is one bit of the British legacy which does live on, that of the double oven. The development of wall ovens here largely mirrored that of free-standing and indeed a lot of components were shared between both. The oven with separate grill compartment was universal until the mid-late 1970s when Belling brought out its Formula range of separates which for the first time included a single oven combined with grill. Fan ovens and double ovens also appeared - actually somewhat ahead of their freestanding equivalents, but then split level was more upmarket. There were European varities of this as well both oven and a half (full size oven and snaller oven grill) or true double ovens.

The standard European single oven was around 60cm high which, when "built under" fitted into a cavity 70 or more commonly 72cm high. The gap was usually filled by a blanking panel or sometimes a drawer. But from the mid 1990s (I think) came models for building under which were 72cm high, now with a smaller oven/grill and a second "main" oven - larger than the oven/grill but not as large as a standard single. And I can only think that this came from British demand for the double oven as there was certainly no such European tradition in free standing models that I can think of and yet pretty much all the manufacturers have them (and sometimes more than one model) in their line up.

To me, when built under, its the worst of all worlds for not only is the main oven set very low, but its also small as well. But i did use one of these as a wall oven for a while and it was quite good but I found I did not use the smaller oven at all, and the main oven was a bit small for my baking so discarded this for another arrangement which I am very happy with indeed.

Finally, a photo I snatched off eaby - this is an English Electric Rapide cooker from the late 1960s/early 1970s showing off its removeable oven linings.

Sorry, this appears to have turned into a novel - hope it was interesting

Al

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I remember a long article in the Wall Street Journal 15 or so years ago about the globalization of the whitegoods (major appliance) market where it went into a good bit of detail about the differences (specifically within Europe) of appliances and how it might be tough to globalize them. The article specifically mentioned that side heat was the norm in the UK, but fan forced was the norm in most of Continental Europe. Apparently for gas ovens too they have/had the heat on the side/back in the UK. The article also mentioned laundry differences (toploading h-axis in France/boilwash in Germany/clothes dryers in Scandinavia/...) The article may have had something to do with the Whirlpool/Philips merger (so that might give anyone researching it a date to look around)
 
Moffat

Congratulations Al, looking good with all the steel & chrome....are you taking out the combis you have or is this for the conservatory kitchen??

Yes , having to leave the boot open all tied down and praying you have taken the route with no hills...Lol, sounds very familiar, the things we done in the name of applainces...

I never gave it a thought growing up about ovens having side elements, just what we grew up with but it didnt seem to give us any iffy results, I do miss them, love the oven space, and are much easier to clean than bottom exposed elements I`m sure unless the element pops out,

There are only a few small slot in cookers that have a main multifunction oven & second smaller traditional oven & grill, interestingly enough these are by Belling (who this year is 100yrs old)....Heres their 60cm slot in Induction Hob model...


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Hey Mike ....

Which model of the English Electric cookers had the self cleaning where it got super hot in the oven to burn the crud off ???
I remember the design as being the similar to yours but also had a self clean setting on the clock as it took a few hours it also had a foot pedal that locked so the door could not be opened untill it had cooled down ! Only ever used it once as we were on a coin meter for the electric and boy oh boy did it ever swallow money when you put it on clean ......:)
Austin
 
Self clean & more

Pete

It was my pleasure.

Mike

As regards he Moffat it was a matter of bad timing as I had just bought a new Neff oven (literally installed it the night before the Moffat was listed) to repace the large of my two old units. Had I not done so, I would have re-located the combi micro (which I still love by the way) and installed the Moffat (subject to testing) in place of the two. As it is, its the conservatory kitchen - following in the footsteps of early 1990s Delia. Mind you she did not have a couple of twinnies, a washing machine and a drier in there! Its getting crowded .......

Interesting to see the rotary cook guide on the 57, I suppose they took the idea from the old EE Liberator washing machine. My mum had the later version of this - the 68, no cook guide but supposedly fully temperature controlled upper oven and stay clean linings in the main oven. Does the 57 have one of those special sensors on the back LH ring (simmerstat?). Mums did, but useless as the tringular ring supports were slightly too short and it would constantly drop into the spill well below. The upper oven was useless too, I dont remember now if it had a bottom element or not or whether it just depended on the grill but everthing came out burnt ...... So when people wax lyrical over 1970s design & build it always brings this cooker to mind - I was there and it was not always the case .....

Main oven was good though, that was what I learned to bake on. Bought in 1974 I think it was then coming towards the end of its production run, I think it was then the EE name was dropped although the cookers lived on as an Electra with updated styling and in a range of colours - harvest gold, green, red.

I think the B&W photo above is a 66 - my Aunt Jean had one of those.

Unfortunatly I was not present when this cooker was bought or it would not have been! I was angling for a Moffat (probably too expensive) or a Tricity President - actually the EE was replaced in 1987 by a later and not so attractive President.

I never did like the later Carron (I think renamed Cannon by this time), I always preferred the earlier version which came in both gas and electric versions, although come to think of it I don't think I ever saw an electric version of the Cannon. I do think B&N could do with a nice burnished copper hood over it too :)

Is Belling part of the Rangemaster group now? As a range, with the grill built into the upper oven I think it is a reasonable design, but I do think two grills is a bit OTT. I doubt it will do well as the vent hood would have to be placed very high over the grill and I dont think an Xpelair or Vent-Axia fan over the cooker would be acceptable these days.

Austin,
Did not know EE produced a self clean oven - if asked I would have cited the Creda Autoclean as the only UK cooker of that era to have a self cleaning oven although your mention of a foot pedal does set a faint bell jangling ..... I cannot think of any other UK manufactured cooker with a self cleaning oven at all (certainly not of that vintage) although I know there are a few imported ones. Indeed I bought a Baumatic self cleaner myself in 2000 - and that was a pile of crap n'all! It lasted three months before I (bitterly) replaced it - wishing I had kept the old Neff 1057 which was brilliant.

Al
 
cleaning the hob

Hi, I love your moffat cooker, I havent read through all of your messages so dont know if you got an answer for cleaning the cermaic hob, but astonish cleaning paste ive found is really good! I cleaned my friends hob and it brought off alot of the burnt on marks...maybe do a test spot first, but it shouldnt scratch the glass... thanks Ian
 

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