New! Speed Queen v. LG: nagging questions

[rapunzel]

One importer brought a Euro top loader, labeled Brandt, to Australia some years ago. It was a compact machine that cost well above a thousand dollars. The price alone made this appliance unattractive to consumers. By cost and features this washer really only appealed to a niche market. The importer went bust some years ago and no such product has been available in Australia since (that I know of). Generally, people who look for top loaders are familiar and comfortable with what is on offer and, unless they specifically want a front loader, they wouldn't be interested in buying a European top loader.

Eons ago my next door neighbor had a top loading washer/dryer. I think it may have been a Bauknecht. It was kept in their bathroom and left open to air out after use. In them days nobody ever complained of smelly washers or dishwashers. That is a relatively recent development that's come with 'progress' and modernity.[this post was last edited: 5/24/2016-04:27]

 

[foraloysius]

The Brandt H-axis toploader was imported by Kleenmaid and was sold under that name too. It was rather expensive indeed, but overhere Brandt sells for an average price. Not only do they have toploader washing machines, but also washer/dryer combos. The washing machines are 40cm wide, the combo's 45cm.

All H-axis toploaders can be left open (with the lid up) to dry out, I never have seen one that needed to be closed after use. Not all of them have the possibility to be left ajar, but with a bit of imagination there are ways to do it. My AEG 220 can be left ajar when you leave the inner drum lids open, the outer lid can't be closed then. Same with my Philips, but that one had an second lid. If you left the inner lid open, you can't close both the other lids. This is to protect the machine from being operated when it's not closed properly.

 

[washer111]

@rapunzel

In regards to the TL machine in the bathroom, I reckon its the fact that someone bothered to take the time to actually open the lid that 'saved' it.

TL machines don't seem as prone to smells as they're not completely sealed when closed up like an FL, but with proper use, an FL should never have the stink issue either. Even machines used on cold might avoid it provided the door and detergent drawer are always left ajar afterwards.

As I've said before - there is no need for "Drum Cleaning Cycles" on machines used in hot and warm washes without excess fabric softener and maybe with LCB sometimes too. Miele has this right, in that the "Hygiene Info" warning related to drum cleanliness only displays if the machine runs enough consecutive cycles below 60ºC (hot) - thus saving time and energy on behalf of the consumer.

Consumer ignorance, seemingly results in a lot of washers today getting a bad rap when they shouldn't. The "I just turn it off and on" mentality has sadly caught on too much with consumers.

My limited experiences suggest the above "advice" (if you'll go that far) does work.
That F&P FL machine was whiffy when I arrived in my new residence in February, but no longer so after hot washes, a bleach run and "doors and drawers ajar" were implemented. In fact, leaving the door ajar is an instilled norm among the housemates, without any verbal communication on my behalf. Win-win.

 

[launderess]

A few thoughts

Americans by and large have not liked H-Axis washers for domestic use. They didn't when Philco, Bendix, Westinghouse, Maytag, and several others made them and that opinion largely did not change over the years. American housewives made the move from wringer washers to top loaders that that largely was that.

American housewives largely have clung to doing laundry the way it has for ages; one day a week (or weeks or months)a "big wash" is done where all laundry is completed. For this you obviously need washers not only with large to great capacity but speedy cycles.

Being a nation blessed with abundant natural resources for the most part unless clean and clear water was in short supply using vast amounts of it didn't bother most persons. This included heating it in central boilers/heaters for use in those aforementioned quick cycle washing machines.

Maytag not only hastened their own demise by the disastrous introduction of Neptune washers, but that fiasco along with a few other ill timed washers being release turned legions off the idea of front loaders.

American housewives and others simply were not told the truth about front loading washers; namely cycle times are longer (in exchange for more gentle treatment of washing), capacity is often smaller, the machine must be kept open when not in use to prevent mould/smells and so forth.

Things went on in that H-axis washers require firm and stable flooring. The more you increase capacity and size of unit this becomes more true; it just is a simple matter of physics. This came as Americans were moving their laundries out of basements and onto ground and first floors if not above.

Another shoe that had to drop was that unlike many parts of the world power supply to many American homes does not always have the 208v-240v routinely normal for Europe. With self heating either off the table and or having to take longer due to decreased voltage cycle times either had to increase or performance suffered.

Americas love of chlorine bleach on laundry day is another problem. The stuff is corrosive With heavy and improper use likely to shorten a front loaders life span. Commercial/Laundromat machines are built to a different standard and more importantly can be repaired if not entirely rebuilt often onsite. Thus any damage to seals, bearings or whatever can be either avoided, delayed and then finally corrected.

The maturity of top load design meant such washers were relatively inexpensive even for TOL models. H-axis washers by nature of design cost more which was something else Americans were not prepared to put up with.

Smelly washing machines? You'll notice those complaints started coming when liquid detergents largely replaced powders. That in addition to the push for more low to cold water washing. Previously when at least one load was done per week in hot to boiling water using a oxygen bleach containing powdered detergent that was enough. So now consumers are expected to run a machine empty on a "clean" cycle which basically is nothing more than a version of a boil wash in order to keep it clean. Where is the energy savings in that?

 

[lordkenmore]

Where is the energy savings in that?

Well, there would be energy savings for those washers with a Clean cycle if one did all actual laundry in tap cold water!

But yes, the logic here does make me wonder. Part of it is that I'd cringe at the thought of routinely running a washer empty just to clean it. Even if I KNEW in that particular case it would actually come out ahead in energy savings.

It seems more reasonable to just regularly wash in warmer water. Thus the machine should stay cleaner, and one's laundry benefits.

To be fair, however, the washer makers have to create something for a wide market, including "I'll stuff it until nothing can move, then add two more shirts, and hit 'Cold Wash'" users. Miracles can't happen with performance in cold water, but if the washer does start really reeking, well, people are likely to notice, and not like it... Thus the Clean cycle presumably fixes that reeking washer problem, and even may help make that cold water abusers laundry come out a bit better, since the machine will be kept cleaner than would be the case otherwise.

 

[henene4]

Kind of off-topic thought

There was one Amazon review that blamed a Miele customer agent for recomending an empty boilwash once every month or so.
Customer was in rage.

Looking at it, an empty boilwash in an empty Miele uses less then 35l of water and less then 1kW of energy.
So, over here, a machine cleaning cycle impacts efficency equal to one fully loaded warm wash, give or take.

So basicly, equivalent to me having a friend stay over one night or not.
Or me spilling salsa on my favorit TV blanket.

Like, seriously, every 40 cycles is a bit often in my opinion, but if you do it once every 100 cycles, that cleaning cycle makes up about 1% of the washers energy and water usage, approximated.
If - for a normal warm wash - a FL uses half of everything a washer without cleaning cycle uses (and that is conservative), a clean cycle on a FL would have to use the equivalent of 20 or 50 normal warm FL washes respectively to get the FL and TL equal in operating cost.
So, even if done every 40 cycles, the usage won't cancel out the savings.

And for those who say there should be no need to have such a cleaning cycle: I don't think you should have to clean a dryers cabinet every other year. But, as far as I understand, that is considered normal dryer maintanance.

 

[stricklybojack]

.
The idea that FL machines are smell prone is a powerful meme in this country.
Just yesterday I was talking to an old friend on the phone he mentioned having bought a new GE laundry pair for $500 total. I said, "I don't have to ask if that is a FL washer cause I already know." He answered, "ya those are expensive and smell bad."
Anecdotal yes, but this is from my 'clean freak' friend, and so says to me there is a lot of PR that needs to happen for FL machines to dominate the US landscape as TLers have since forever.

 

[launderess]

Cleaning dryer's cabinet

When my repairman was here once working on the WP portable asked him about cleaning out the cabinet of the matching dryer. He said it wasn't necessary and to leave things as they were.

OTOH have seen members doing just his and found all sorts of lint and God only knows what else.

That being said if one understands correctly long as a dryer is properly designed and vented there shouldn't be any lint inside the cabinet. What is see is the dust and fluff that gets sucked in during operation.

 

[washman]

Well I'll leave it at this

All I know is from 1978 to 2002 my mother had a GE filterflo, Kennmore then finally the Whirlpool. ALl 3 were run on hard well water and run hard especially when I worked for 2 summers in a non union sweatshop re-manufacturing alternators and starters.

Not once were the machines "cleaned" with the asinine, vapid cleaning cycle found on the HE junk today.

Not once.

Bold3 then Oxydol and occasionally Cheer were used. Clothes were clean as was the machine. My father worked in a union factory for 29 years. His work clothes stunk of foundry dust, machine dust and oil. So did mine. We cut wood and heated that way for 15 years. Sawdust and ground in Indiana clay dirt went right in the friggin thing. Stuff came out clean and we did not have to play games with error codes reboots, and stupid crap like that. The whirlpool lasted 18 years with no service calls and believe me when I tell you, it got USED!

Face it, we're not running out of water, air, sunshine, or the like. The planet is not getting warmer. In reality people are just getting dumber. And accepting mindless garbage from Eco minded control freaks who have a control agenda at heart.

If your rationale is hey, I want a machine that pisses on the clothes because my water bill is too expensive and I want to save money, by all means knock yourself out.

If your logic is gee, I read on ______ (fill in the blank) or saw in USA today that a survey of 1000 morons think human induced climate change will end humanity as we know it and gosh, I need a HE machine so I can do my part and saddle up with all the other sheeple and save mother earth, then I am sorry to say you are a total dumbass.

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming................et cetera.

 

[glomain]

washman

COULD OF NOT SAID IT BETTER MYSELF!

 

[panthera]

washman,

While I disagree with you on global warming - it's an established fact - there's quite a bit of truth in what you're saying.

I remember being lectured (endlessly) back home in Germany on my immoderate use of water and energy and (heavens above!) stainless steel for having a dishwasher and tumble-dryer.

The horror of it.

And every single one of those who lectured me smoked like freight trains.

I'm the only person on the left politically whom I knew in the 1980s and early '90s who did not smoke.

Americans need to man up, grow a pair of balls and make a choice: Either good FLs or good Tls, but all this cold water, non-phosphate detergent washing is worthless. It doesn't work. At.All.

Sadly, as the 'fabric softener' cycles show, HE TLs COULD actually be made to clean by simply reprogramming their microprocessor. Somebody should make an effort to figure out how to do it, how to make 'hot' really 'hot' again, high water levels and an end to the stupid, never works anyway, load sensing.

First thing we did in our over 100 year old house was to get rid of the 6liter toilets and put the real ones back in. Just how the hell does a toilet save water when you have to flush it three times? Answer: It doesn't.

 

[mattl]

Well to take this thread even more off topic than it already is ---- the secret to a low flow toilet is to get a properly designed one.  I have a 1.3g Toto toilet and I have never had to multiple flush it in the 6 years I've had it.  Once again you get what you pay for. It works just as it should, and I have no idea where my plunger is, have not used it in a decade or more.  Never could figure out why people have plungers in their bathrooms, just seems disgusting.

 

Sort of back on topic I can't comprehend  why anyone would buy one of those crappy wash plate top loaders, total joke.  I'm totally sold on FL machines, my water bill is happy, my detergent bill is happy and my clothes are happy so that makes me happy.

 

[launderess]

Impeller top loading washing machines

Are some manufacturers way of offering the capacity and gentleness of a H-Axis washer with the ease of top loaders. This supposedly comes with no reduction in cleaning or other performance measures.

Leave us say the concept has not quite fulfilled its promise.

 

[panthera]

Laundress,

You're right about the wash plate systems. I've seen them work fairly well in compact models, but those used lots of water and good design, two things the HE TLs are totally missing.

 

Toilets: Same topic, really. I know some of the newest models (including one of the cheapest on the market, a Homeless Despot brand) have top ratings. Great. It's 2016. How long did we have to put up with the awful ones? Even when they cost a fortune? You do not always get what you pay for, not when everything on the market is worthless shit.

 

 

[mrboilwash]

I have only limited experience with those new extremly water stingy toilets in the States, but I really cannot understand the complaints about increased water use if one has to flush twice under certain conditions.

I mean how often a day do people usually wipe their butts vs how often it`s just # 1 to flush?
I suppose at the end of the day the water bill is still considerably lower with a modern toilet even if one has to flush twice or even more on certain occations.

 

[rapunzel]

Low flow toilets are the absolute shit and, yes, having to flush thrice to send a turd on its way isn't being green. In addition, these toilets are now causing problems with sewage systems that were designed to require larger volumes of water to keep them patent. More blockages and sewage backups are the result of the low-flow trend.

As for climate change, the way I see it, it is 50% important scientific inquiry and 50% absolute bullshit driven by crazy ideologues, politicians, (big) business and other opportunists who are pushing this issue for personal gain. Some people have described modern environmentalism as a reinvention of communism. I think that there is something to that. Former communists became disenchanted with their political movement and its demise left them searching for a suitable alternative. Militant environmentalism offers itself as the perfect replacement ideology, especially in Europe.

 

[henene4]

So you call enviromentalists communists?

 

[launderess]

In advance of possibly aquiring a wringer washer

Have been doing the off loads of linens using tubs and a mangle, and have to say there is something to using lots of water for washing.

My whites certainly looked a bit brighter and things smelled fresher. Am thinking it is because one is lifting laundry out of water rather than allowing it to drain through. That and used enough water to make a tree hugger sit down and weep. *LOL*

Did discover all the laundry products one has had problems with over sudsing and or rinsing did fine via the tub method. Even (vintage)Biz presented no problems. Know this because after mangling put things through the spin dryer to get out the rest of water. What came out was clear.....

 

[panthera]

Environmentalists are not communists,

But I sat through too many idiot lectures back home in Munich from 'Greens' who drove 180 on the Autobahn, ate meat and smoked cigarettes about how my dishwasher and tumble-dryer were 'destroying' the planet earth to have any patience with the holier than that bullshit of too many environmentalists. Especially the German greens who stabbed gay men in the back all through the '80s and '90s, courting our votes but never doing SHIT to advance our cause.

There's a reason I stuck in out in the SPD all those years.

 

 

[lordkenmore]

>Am thinking it is because one is lifting laundry out of water rather than allowing it to drain through.

I'm not an expert, but I have to think lifting laundry out would work better...

As much as I like the old BD Kenmores, one thing that gets me about that design is the neutral drain. It seems like you just spent 10 minutes removing all the crud from the clothes, just to potentially redeposit it on the clothes as the wash water drains through the clothes.

Although I will admit in practice the best washer I've used the last 10 years was classic WP BD. Although that "best" is partly due to the nature of the competition. It probably doesn't take much to compete with a WCI Frigidaire. And both BD machines I used in the last 10 years at different times probably had good lint filtering, which probably helps.