New Tall Tub KitchenAid Dishwashers.. "To Clean or not Clean enough"?

[stevet]

CountryBoy posted recently that he purchased a new TT Kitchenaid DW and he is satisfied with the results. My question is this.. If you check the user forum at K/A's Website, there seems to be an overwhelming amount of people who complain that the dishwasher leaves residue on the dishware especially in the upper rack.
The standard response seems to always be to use the Vinegar wash and everything will be fine. With all things being equal, i.e the Whirlpool and Kenmore and KA machines being the same units, why would the K/A seem to have the problem more so than the other Brands?
Is there something radically different in the K/A machines that set them apart?
I don't want to believe it is the washarm since they all have 10 nozzles. The current Hydrosweep 4 way arm seems to have smaller jets than the previous designs and it seems like it doesn't extend out as far as the older ones.
I have a Whirlpool DU950PWKQ1 as an overflow machine in the garage and it seems to clean really well, but it is not a TT and it has the vertical pump assy. I have to assume that the horizontal pumps arent as powerful as the older style units?

Does anyone have any input on this?

I have a brand new KUDP02IRWH2 still sealed in the box. Should I replace my KDS-18 and lie with the superlong cycles (though I have my hot water heater set above 150) or just wait till the tank retires? Then I have to wear out my KDC21D machine!

BTW..IF anyone would really like to purchase that unit..I will consider selling it in a heartbeat and avoid the problem altogether!

 

[Brent-Aucoin]

Good Evening,
If you have a KDS-18, in great working condition.....I would not replace it for anything right now.
You have a real Hobart Design dishwasher. The pump that really used the Hydro-Sweep.
I have a KDS-18 in my kitchen that I have been using for about 1 year. It was actually new and never used when I bought it. I also have a KDS-20 Portable that I use just as much. I would not trade them for anything.
When these go (and I think it will be ages), I have back -up dishwasher's that were made by Hobart, just in case I need them.
I have used several of the tall tub designs. I think they are great if you load them correct. I just can't stand the 2 hour wash cycles. I don't get where the energy is being saved with the current design dishwasher.
My 2-cents worth.....
Brent

 

[peteski50]

New Tall Tub KitchenAid Dishwashers

Nothing works like the hobart KitchenAid's
My mother had one for 25 years.
I wish they stayed with Hobart and I wish they would have made a tall tub design.
Peter

 

[countryguy]

Stevet,

Your reference to 'countryboy' I am assuming was in reference to me 'countryguy' No longer a boy, all grown up now! LOL

Anyway, I did indeed purchase a new tall tub Kitchenaid and so far I am very pleased with it. I have done several heavily soiled loads with racks full both in the top and bottom and everything has come out spotless. I even put the roast pan in last night, used the normal cycle with proscrub turned on and it came out clean. The cycle was about 2 hours including dry time.

Gary

 

[brinomarc]

I have a Kitchen aid that I purchased 3 years ago, and it is by far the worst dishwasher I have ever owned, due to the exact reasons as the many posts show on the website mentioned here. I have done virtually everything in the way of what all the experts say to improve the cleanliness of the dishes, but no matter what I do, ultimately the dishes have crud, left over food etc. Even the inside door panel still has stuck on food after a full wash. Silverware is always dirty. I have been told by some people who emailed me from Kitchen aid that there have been problems with their new pulse and wash systems, which supposedly use much less water than other brands. The machine stops to allow water to go to the bottom, then starts with 'bursts' of water, rather than having a constant full water flow. I am very dissapointed, as the machine seemed to be built very sturdily, which is one of the reasons I purchased it at such a high price. After having several other brands of dishwashers without ever having these sort of problems, at this point I would never recommend Kitchen Aid to anyone due to the horrible results I get in poor washing. I have even had service twice on the unit, the service men say the same thing as I have posted here as well, nothing you can do about it, it is the 'new' design that they have been having poor results in washability. Kitchen Aid themselves do not seem to want to address the issue, and you get no where with them when you try to complain to their customer service, they don't want to hear it. All they keep doing is sending me a basic document that they created with 'suggestions' for better washing results, such as water temperature, soft water, loading, detergent etc. All of which are fine in my home. Even if I have a 'half' load in this machine, it does not come clean on a regular cycle. This is my experience, but I have been in contact with many other consumers through the website who have had the same terrible experience with this product.

 

[tomturbomatic]

If you want to go with a tall tub dishwasher, a Maytag or JennAir has had a better track record for cleaning. They have a bigger pump and motor. If the sensor decides that the water is so dirty that another water change is necessary, the machine drains completely and refills, unlike the KA machines which use a different method to determine turbidity in the wash water and then only purge a small part of the water and replace it with an equal amount of fresh water. The whole trouble is that these new machines are trying to use too little water to thoroughly clean dishes. At least in the KA style machines, the sump is too shallow to hold enough water for the pump to maintain full water pressure during circulation. That is why they have tried the pulse process which shuts off the motor and allows the sump to fully fill with water and then starts the motor to throw a strong surge of water against the soiled pieces in the load. The other reason for poorly cleaned dishes with residue on them is that the machine only gives one rinse after the wash on all but the heaviest soil settings. The machine uses a very small amount of water and that small amount combined with the poor water circulation does not rinse dishes well. A bit of history on this topic. In the very early 50s, 1950s, for the very young, Consumer Reports did a test of dishwashers. Among the brands they tested was an APEX machine with a timer dial on the backsplash of the machine. The cycle in that machine was one wash and one rinse. It did not perform very well with that cycle, but Consumer Reports generously stated that if the machine was set to give another rinse, the results were far better. I found that very true in the 21 and 22 series electronic Superbas that I had. The cycle only gave one rinse after the wash, but if I added an extra rinse, things came out much better. The Maytag and JennAir machines have options that, when chosen, provide an extra rinse after the wash. Two rinses are better than one.

 

[peteski50]

Tall Tub

I have the GE tall tub and like the machine. It gives 3 rinses in the normal cycle. I am pleased with that. I don't care how much water is being used. Any dishwasher should give at least 2 rinses. It is just ashame what happened to KitchenAid.
Peter

 

[andrewinorlando]

I've got a GE Tall Tub, too...the 9800 I believe with stainless interior. 45 - 47 minute Normal cycle...and it cleans brilliantly...no residue left on anything, anywhere. Easy to load (though I am not too crazy about the short tines on the lower rack...pain in the butt with certain dishes).

Over the weekend, I sold my KitchenAid KUDS23 Superba dishwasher, only because the GE just holds more and fits my big pots and 12" dinnerware, where the KA is too limited. It killed me to do it, but I don't have room for two. (It went to a very good home where it will be loved and appreciated!) But the GE washes just as well, if not better than that old KA did. The multiple rinses do the trick. The Normal cycle in the GE is a Wash-Wash-Rinse-Rinse-Rinse sequence, using 7 or 8 gallons of water. If it senses the dishes are clean after the second rinse, it just drains and shuts off. Works every time. Convection drying with no heat leaves everything dry as a bone, except some plastics.

I think the real issue may be why some of the KA units have this problem, and others do not....there are plenty of satisfied KA customers out there with these machines...we have some here. And why doesn't it seem to afflict Whirlpool/Kenmore Elite machines? THere is a bug somewhere, and KA isn't owning up to it, or just can't figure out what to do about it.

 

[Brent-Aucoin]

Hi Marc,
That sucks about your dishwasher. Did you have any kind of plan that if you were not happy, they would take it back? It really is a sad situation when you pay so much for a "Name" that was trusted for over 50 years, that you end up with a machine that is like this. I would push it with them. It is only if the consumers that are willing to push this issue, that they make the changes that need be!
Tom, I totally agree with you about the washing "pressure" and the lack of extra rinses. It makes all the difference. I think that "Kitchenaid", if you can even use this name without gettting pissed, was all for getting that "energy saver" logo on the machine. This is what buyers are looking for now. In the home that I moved into, it had the Maytag three rack design. I have to say that the pump, and the water it used was very well designed. It just took too long for me.
Gary, I think it is great that your Kitchenaid is working out for you! That is super. It would be great to get all of these machines together, and test them. I would bet that something is a little different about each of them....
The reason I say this is Andrews point about the Whirlpool / Kenmore Elite machines not having this problem. I find it it all so interesting, and I would bet that they use more water, and have the extra rinses.
Bottom Line in my own thoughts....I think that the machines that are cleaning well, are using more water.
It is very easy for the "brands" to test all of these machines on the consumer, at the consumers cost. This is why I say fight, and get them to give you something that cleans! It does not cost them anything in the long run, and they develop a better machine!
I truly think it is all about getting that "Energy Star".
My 2 - cents worth!
Brent

 

[toggleswitch]

~Bottom Line in my own thoughts....I think that the machines that are cleaning well, are using more water.

Imagine. What a concept!

I bet Uncle Sam never figured some of use would COVET machines that are water-hogs. So much for the INTENDED purpose of those yellow gov't energy-saver labels (White in Canada).

 

[launderess]

People want "Energy Star" but fail to do the math in terms of matching performace with energy savings, if any. If dishes have to go through an extra cycle, laundry washed twice or some such, where is the savings in that?

There is no getting around the fact that to wash dishes and laundry one needs a certian amount of water. You don't hear about "Energy Star" commercial units, or if they do exist not causing the amount of problems domestic consumers seem to have. Why? Because commercial units have to perform for if nothing else for the sake of public health.

Being as all this may, our 18" Kenmore (built by Frigidaire) portable does a decent enough job with two washes and one rinse for the normal cycle. Used to reset the dial for a second rinse, but found it made no difference in terms of cleaning results, nor was the wash water any cleaner after the second rinse. Our machine does purge/rinse the sump/drain/filter between the pre-wash and main wash,then again before the rinse.

L.

 

[andrewinorlando]

Interestingly enough, in checking out the newest KA dishwashers online, when you select the Hi Temp Wash option, the machine automatically adds a second rinse, in addition to heating the water in the first wash on the Heavy cycle, and heating water to 140 on the normal cycle. Don't know if previous versions did the same thing or not, but maybe they've gotten wise to the issue? I also noticed that the "normal" wash temperature is down to only 120 degrees, depending on what the sensor decides. If you want 140 guaranteed, you must use Hi Temp Wash.

Now, I ask you, does anyone think the average dishwasher consumer really understands what this all means to the cleaning ability of their new high priced dishwasher??? Would you really want your soiled dishware and utensils washed at only 120 degrees? Actually, the range they give is 105 - 140 degrees, depending on what the sensors decide.

It seems they took the real "Normal" cycle and dumbed it down, then optioned it up with the "HI TEMP" option. Saves energy, but does it clean? If I were KA, I think I'd be more concerned about the machine's cleaning ability, and thus, the company's reputation rather than trying to save 2 friggin quarts of water.

You know, the wash time in my 1989 Superba was all of 14 minutes on the normal cycle - W-R-W-R sequence with one purge, and it cleaned very well....at 140 degrees with 2.5 gallon fills. Go figure.

 

[DADoES]

Far as I understand, EnergyStar ratings are based on the Normal cycle with default options, for both washers & dishwashers. Configuring a very low-resource "normal" cycle then providing options to beef-up the performance is likely an easy way to get EnergyStar qualification, but consumers likely aren't aware of it. The typical user doesn't read the instruction manual, isn't aware of the options and what they do.

 

[launderess]

Yeahbut

To be fair, when one chooses "Normal" wash cycle for dishes or laundry, don't want to bother having to go through hoops to get good results. This is one reason am simply not interested in the cheap tat they sell as appliances nowadays. Will keep my vintage stuff working for long as possible even if one has to tramp up and down Europe for parts.

Am seriously considering latching onto a vintage Hobart/KA dishwasher, but it would have to be portable and not sure if the full 24" model would fit.

 

[appnut]

I did a stuffed BobLoad in the elite tonght, Smart Wash. It did a full 1st rinse rather than purge and heated main wash water to 140. I did a load yesterdy afternoon that was pretty "clean" for me. It sensed harly any soil and went from pre-wash to main wash without drainig. The main wash was 20 minutes long, water at 115 or 120, which was fine with me since it was a 'clean" load basically--had done a rinse&hold the night before. I don't hit the sani-rinse option until it begins filling for the final rinse. The "clean load" finished in 104 minutes with the sani-heat and the 30 minutes for heated dry.

 

[brinomarc]

Nice to read all the information here posted by all of you. As for what Brent suggested about contacting Kitchen Aid about the issues I have with the machine, I did everything possible to try and be a squeaky wheel about it, including writing to the heads of the company, but it did no good. All I got as a mailed response was a pre printed suggestion sheet about how to load dishes, and a check list about water temp, hardness etc. Customer service didn't even want to deal with me, and only suggested I have a repairman come out. They seemed totally disinterested in the fact they had an unhappy customer, couldn't care less, which was dissapointing to me. I could not return the machine as I bought it from a private appliance store. I originally WAS considering the GE Profile as mentioned in this thread, and now have 2 relatives who have them and get perfect results with short wash time. If I choose the high temp wash or sani rinse, my machine runs almost 2 hours, such a waste of energy, and even then, there is still soil on some dishes, and the inside of the door still hold food residue! My old dishwasher used to get the whole thing done in less than an hour on normal cycle, and perfectly clean, even baked on stuff (it was a Maytag Jetclean). I really thought Kitchen Aid was going to be a workhorse of a machine, expecially with the way it looked to be designed so nicely, but in my case, it did not turn out that way. I do believe that all of you are correct, companies may have 'differences' in models or manufacturing that would cause 'some' of the customers to have such bad experiences, but truly I have never had such a poor experience, or poor response from a customer service department. It is sad that Whirlpool now ate up Maytag, if this is any indication of their customer service, it does not say much for the company.

 

[andrewinorlando]

I don't think anyone's customer service experiences mentioned here should be considered to be atypical of any manufacturer these days. Squeaky wheel or not, manufacturers know that your choices are limited, very limited, so they lose a few here, gain some more there. It's just a numbers game for them.

The thing I still don't understand, though, is how GE does it in a relatively short Normal wash cycle, and does it very well, and others take upwards of 2 hours to do the same job? Does GE do something magical inside that box that we don't know about? The Normal cycle has never taken more than 60 minutes, and has run as short as 30 minutes or so, depending on soil level, but usually averages 45 - 47 minutes. I don't use the dry cycle. But it always does a separate pre-wash, no matter the soil level; it just cuts rinses for cleaner loads. Something just doesn't seem kosher here. It's energy star rated, just like the KA/Whirly/Kenmore Elite, though it does have a much larger heating element - 1000 Watts. Maybe that's a difference? It does heat very quickly.

 

[tomturbomatic]

That Hi Temp Wash option is a direct transplant from Maytag and well overdue. I am glad to hear about it.

Actually the new WP Tall Tubs have had their cleaning troubles as well. I guess not as many people here use them.

As I stated before, the bean counters at the energy department ran the machines with clean dishes to test them for the energy star rating. Hmm... Gets 'em wet; give it an energy star.

When WP/KA introduced the tall tubs, they were energy star rated but the standard tub WP machine was not. I said at the time that it would be the one that really washed dishes.

 

[brisnat81]

How much water do the new KA machines use?

I've got a Miele that can do a full R-W-R-R cycle with 13 -19 litres (3-4 gals) of water on a sensor wash. Do the KA machines use even less than that?