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"It's surreal reading some posts on this board which rant about my baseless hatred and unresolved psychological issues, and I wonder if the poster has ever held in his arms a living human skeleton that is 6'4" tall and weighs 93 pounds. I'd guess not."

You'd be wrong.

And it wasn't just personal for me. When I hit seventy-eight memorial services, I stopped keeping track....

It's irrelevant to the subject at hand anyway.

I've transcended my own personal losses. Almost twenty years ago, in fact. I couldn't dwell on them without becoming totally embittered and hostile to the rest of the world.

While I respect and lament those who haven't managed to harness their enduring pain into more constructive, compassionate goals, I'm not letting them dominate the world I live in or the community I am a part of. I do not receive condemnation for events that transpired 3000 years ago, 140 years ago, or even 65 years ago, and reject the idea that I can be "guilted" into allowing atrocities I had no hand in affect my clarity and judgement on approaches used in the here and now.

To understand the reluctance large numbers of the straight community have towards marriage equality, look to how many members of our own "world" treat them, with the same level of hostility and derision we once endured.

If you want to understand why members of our own community are ambivalent at best toward marriage equality "activists", examine closely the hostility and arrows the so-called "freedom from religion" crowd and the evangelical atheists have aimed inward, toward gay people of faith.

If you want to understand contempt and disgust with the methods and tactics used by marriage equality zealots, consider the negative and unanswerable attention they have drawn to the entire marriage equality movement as a whole, and examine the backlash the entire gay community is forced to put up with as a result.

If you are surprised at the amount of reluctance and concern you see, from such a large segment of a community that you'd think would benefit most from the initiatives at hand, consider the behavior or hardcore supporters of certain political candidates in the larger society, realize that it's not to put two and two together, see how manufactured outrage and intimidation can be used as a powerful political tool in the hands of such "high-information" elitists, and accept that many will reject "the means" employed outright.

Just my two cents.
 
You haven't transcended, Scott. All you've done, all you seem able to do is deny and ignore reality, and overuse the word "irrelevant" in an attempt to cram your emotions into a closet and avoid admitting the truth.

I understand you. Hell, for 25 years I *was* you. The experience I had with Chuck's death and dealing with his parents was a defining moment in my life: it's when I finally stopped being you.

But as someone else pointed out, we're guests here in Robert's living room, and I've been a bad guest. My parting shot is, start spending the time it takes to find out what the term "defense of marriage" actually means to people, especially christians, and to start peeking under that pretty, politically correct mask. You'll have no trouble at all exposing it for what it really is: very deep, very ugly and utterly "baseless hatred" and bigotry. The same emotional dishonesty, ignorance and denial you display in your posts is precisely what has allowed institutionalized gay bashing to exist for 3500 years, and is precisely what has allowed the RCC and other churches to get away with maintaining their ignorant and morally indefensible positions on the issue.
 
I'm aware of what "defense of marriage" means, Jeff.

And precisely what elements are behind it.

My main concern is, that I not be "victimized" a second time, by elements among my own, who are fast becoming what they've always hated.
 
Oxydolfan1,

Please, just drop the venom. You have many valuable contributions to make, but this continual outpouring of queenly bitchiness is just not necessary.
It may be en vogue at some sites, here we don't need it. We can communicate and exchange ideas without bashing each other. Winning the "queen bitch" award is not really an honor, you know...and I say that in full knowledge that I am just as good at Betty Davis and Joan Crawford as you are.

To be honest, and it hurts, you have some good thoughts to share.
So how about dropping the ad hominem attacks and give it a try?
 
Panthera, understand that it's not the views itself that are upsetting...I understand the frustration.

It's the way how whole groups of good people, the entire nation of America, Dr. Mengele-like experiments on half the sixteenth floor of St. Vincent's....

I'd LOVE to explain this further, but I've just been advised by the police that my father has been found dead....we have had no relationship whatsoever for decades, and the one we did have was not pleasant....I am the only living "next of kin" and I have no idea what my role, if any, is to be...so lemme just get through this day, and hopefully the next, and I'll try to be nicer when I return, okay?

My main point is that there is a serious divide in the nation right now, and a serious divide that runs, perhaps not down the middle, but still down the gay community as a result.

I have been thinking, perhaps the marriage equality is not the most important one to pursue right now, as it IS a wedge issue for a whole lot of other twitchy issues we may not even realize.
 
Thank you, P....

It WAS an impossible, dangerous situation I ran away from, and I thought I'd prepared for this eventuality, but, it still feels very surreal.

The desk sergeant isn't in yet. I hope I don't have to go down there.
 
That's a wonderful story, for two reasons.

First of all, his affection for his daughter is clear, both from the photograph, and the article.

Secondly, as an eighteen-year-old, she is free to go about her business as she pleases, without worrying about media types following her about, popping out of bushes.
 
Good collection of opinions and views

I thought this article was a rather well done collection of view-points on the granting of human status to homosexuals in California.
Especially interesting because the author has remained fairly neutral and objective in the story telling.
Worth reading. If anybody has trouble with the link, say so here - I'll just copy and past the article. Not too long.
Remember folks - if we let them take away our civil rights in the Constitution, we become, de facto sub-human. The christianists must be fought tooth and nail! Pity the republicans have become the Fussvolk of these monsters.

http://origin.mercurynews.com/politics/ci_9593246
 
Wow Keven, you had the link posted before my hard copy arrived this morning. Just brewed up a pot of Viennese blend and am ready to give this a read--the old fashioned way!
 
Another moderate article

I would never call the Sacbee a flaming leftist rag...Most people who have never live in California think LA is California. Ain't true.
Orange county is frequently to the right of the most conservative states in Appalachia...with California becoming moderate towards Sacramento and then mildly liberal as you head north.
What I do not understand is how these "Christian" churches can maintain their tax free status. Telling congregants to vote for an amendment to strip citizens of human status is not political?
Anyway, if anyone has trouble finding the article, just let me know - happy to copy and past, much less copy and paste.

http://www.sacbee.com/dyn/comments/...ect Monday, area congregations grapple with%2
 
Here's a direct link to Keven's article.

It has gone way beyond preaching from the pulpit on this issue. The RC church where I grew up holds fundraisers and meetings specifically to advance "defense of marriage" initiatives. The goal is to whip up fear, hatred and anger in the community, as well as raise money.

http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/1014635.html
 
Rapunzel-----

Here are some rather virulent prayers said at every weekly shabbat service in conservative synagogues across America. You can tell it is of an "Abrahamic" origin because of it's satanic content.

From the Siddur Sim Shalom
United Synagogue of America
Page 414
Translated from the hebrew text:
"A prayer for our Country"

Our G-D and G-D of our ancestors: We ask your blessings for our country, for its government, for its leaders and advisors, and for all those who exercise just and rightful authority. Teach them insights of Your Torah (Bible), that they may administer all affairs of state fairly, that peace and security,happiness and prosperity, justice and freedom may forever abide in our midst.

Creator of all flesh, bless all the inhabitants of our country with Your spirit. May citizens of all races and creeds forge a common bond in true harmony to banish hatred and bigotry and to safeguard the ideals and free institutions which are the pride and glory or our country.

May this land under Your Providence be an influence for good throughout the world, uniting all people in peace and freedom and helping them to fulfill the vision of Your profit: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they experience war any more." Amen

Followed by a prayer for the State of Israel:

Our Father in Heaven, Rock and Redeemer of the people of Israel: Bless the State if Israel, with its promise of redemption. Shield it with Your love; spread over it the shelter of Your peace. Guide its leaders with Your light and Your truth. Help them with Your good councsel. Strengthen the hands of those who defend our Holy Land. Deliver them; crown their efforts with triumph. Bless the land with peace, and its inhabitants with lasting joy. Amen

Followed by A Prayer for Peace:

May we see the day when war and bloodshed cease, when a great peace will embrace the whole world.

Then nation will not threaten nation, and mankind will not again know war.

For all who live on earth shall realize we have not come into being to hate or to destroy.

We have come into being to praise, to labor, and to love.

Compassionate G-D, bless the leaders of all nations with the power of compassion.
Fulfill the promise conveyed in Scripture:

I will bring peace to the land, and you shall lie down and no one will terrify you.

I will rid the land of vicious beasts and it shall not be ravaged by war.

Let love and justice flow like a mighty stream.

Let peace fill the earth as the waters fill the sea.

Amen.

Rapunzel, as you can see, the devil himself must have written those words, and they clearly represent the generalization you made regarding those "of the faith".

If only I were good enough to live my life by those standards, I would be a person truly worthy of "The Abrahamic" faith.

End rant.
 
That's a good article. The comments that follow, however, are quite eye opening, and further confirm what I always say -YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID, and further proves that there are more stupid, ignorant sonsofbitches walking the planet than I might have thought. I mean, where do people get this shit from??? Oh yeah, the bible. Uh huh.....
 
Well all in all guys, lets just be thankful for a couple a things this fine Sunday afternoon.

First in just a little under 27 hours Gay Marriage will become the law of the land in California. This is even a more monumental event than is Mass because in Massachusetts they have a residency requirement, where as in California they do not. No matter what happens in November, this is the beginning of the end of bans on Gay Marriage.

And a big yay for the Gay Pride decorations just starting to go up in downtown Minneapolis for Pride weekend at the end of the month, I snapped a few shots today just for fun...

6-15-2008-16-11-0--Unimatic1140.jpg
 
Some good points in the LA Times

I learned a lot from this article. Basically, it looks like the bad guys are going to fight this one tooth and nail.
We have only won the battle here, not the fight. The next step is to make sure that the amendment is defeated in November...assuming a court does not decide before that it is illegal.
If Obama wins, and the Democrats expand their hold on both houses, we have a decent chance of seeing DOMA fall. It will take concerted effort as the christianists will be out in full force, but doable.
If McCain wins, forget it. He won't budge and even if we have the votes in congress, the democrats won't help us. They only help us when they need our votes.
The rest of the Western World has pretty much made up its mind on the issues of evolution, natural science, global warming, gay marriage, human rights, health insurance, separation of church and state. These issues are all still very contentious and very much unsettled in the US. We won so many victories in the 1960's for women and people of color...then things ground to a dead halt. This is a golden opportunity, we have to take it.
If the link is dead or doesn't work, just mention it, I'll try again - too big to post.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-me-gaymarriage15-2008jun15,0,7480507.story?page=1
 
Well, you have proven yourself correct if we are to assume your comment follows like the rest of ours.

The truth is, we are all entitled to have our opinions. Mine is just as stong as the next person's.
You however, somehow think that whatever you say is from the lips of the Creator, and no, I don't believe you are The One. After a few conversations with those more familiar with your posts it is apparent that no one is surprised at all. You are the only one that takes yourself seriously.
Time to take your daily dose of lithium.
 
From the article:

>>For gay couples, he said, the decision carries pressure to act quickly, since marriage will no longer be an option if a state constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage passes in November.<<

This bit of probable misinformation is becoming widespread, and is being pushed hard by the DOMA camp since the court decision. The question of whether a majority of people in a state can ban something that their supreme court has already determined is a constitutionally protected right, is a novel one, but most legal opinions I've read so far have said they cannot.

If the initiative passes it'll be used as ammunition in an eventual appeal to the SCOTUS, and if it doesn't pass you can be sure the groups responsible for it will requalify/reintroduce similar initiatives at every election cycle -- until the matter is decided at the federal level.

As time goes on, the DOM "movement" is being exposed more and more for what it really is: civil gay bashing and bigotry in a PC wrapper.
 
Its more than just "gay-bashing".

The Bush Administration and his cronies have tried to justify the legal discrimination of a group of tax-paying American citizens. Since many of the states also charge income-tax it makes this even more outrageous. No other group in recent history has ever been singled-out in this way.

We are American citizens who just happen to be gay. Not the other way around!
 
Gyrafoam,

I don't know to whom your comments were addressed, but making snide remarks about people who take medication is so wrong.

There are many folks here who have health problems and the syndromes for which lithium is prescribed are any thing but fun, just the opposite. Nor are the side effects of such treatments negligible.

If your comments were meant to inflame, they failed. If you truly have something to say why not try again - but without the nastiness?
 
Panthera----Oh, I take plenty of meds everyday--------

and realize their importance----they keep me alive.

Now, since my comments are obviously not about you I think you should mind your own damed business. And trust me, you have not yet seen me get nasy, so best stay out of it.
 
Well gee Steve, how would anyone know who your comments are about since you didn't say? And don't be so damned nasty. There's no need for it. If you don't agree with someone, that's cool, just say so...no one gives a damn how nasty you can be. Keven has a habit of saying things in an inflammatory way, we all know it, he admits it and apologizes when he's wrong. He just thinks his opinions rule, but that's ok, we can all play along :) Like you, he's not a bad guy.
 
That's quite enough. You will not swear at me.

I don't threaten. By now that should be clear to you, and to anyone else who thinks they can blackmail and bully people around here into silence or leaving.

I don't care how nasty, how venomous you are but you shall not tell me to mind my own business while you hijack a thread with disparaging comments about the mentally ill.

This thread is everyone's business, disparaging comments about people being on medication have no place here and I will thank you to take your venom somewhere else. Start your own thread if you want to, and Robert is willing, but stop hijacking this one.

Better yet, why not take your private vendetta out and settle it somewhere else.
 
Well gee Andrew,

how else would you have expected me to react to calling me a "stupid SOB"?????
And you you can believe if someone does I'll return the favor!
And I sure as hell don't need you telling me whether to be nasty or not!
And none of you even have the slightest idea about my reasons for commenting on the "Abrahamic" religions, unless of course you are also anti-semetic.
 
Well gee, Steve, I didn't call you any such thing. I referred to those who see fit to deprive gay people of the most basic of human rights as marriage because "the bible says so". Gimme a break. If you took that personally, then my apologies to you.
 

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