Spider Corrosion, And Foul Odors, In Front Load Washers

[limey]

Many posts on many sites claim that the corrosion of the spiders is due to galvanic action. I do not agree, I believe it is primarily chemical corrosion.

Should the corrosion have been galvanic between the stainless steel drum and the aluminium spider the majority of the corrosion would have been at the junction of the two metals i.e. at the ends of the arms. I have seen no photographs of spiders corroded in such a manner, nor read of any similar descriptions.

Aluminium is corroded when immersed in an aqueous solution with a pH value above about 8.0. All detergents have to be above about 8.0 or they would not work. The Material Safety Data Sheets put out by Proctor and Gamble state that the pH for one of the liquid ‘Tides’ is 8.0 and for one of the ‘Tide’ powdered detergents as 11.0. Bleach, (sodium hypochlorite) is also very corrosive to aluminium. I should add that for corrosion of the spider to take place these levels are considerably above the levels found in a washing machine during the wash/rinse phases of the cycle.

Sodium carbonate and sodium percarbonate found in some laundry aids are also corrosive to aluminium, provided the required concentrations are reached.

I believe the mechanics of the corrosion are as follows.
Even after the fastest spin small quantities of water will remain on the shaft and towards the centre of the spider. Any recesses in the spider close to the centre will aggravate this situation. This water will contain very, very small quantities of laundry aids used, soil from the laundry and chemicals from the ‘tap’ water. Should this water be allowed to stand the water will evaporate until such time as sufficient has gone to allow the pH of the remaining mixture to rise above the threshold at which corrosion will occur.

Additionally the retained water will quickly become foul smelling leading to, I believe, many of the complaints about mold and mildew.
The picture is of the spider removed from my 7.5 year old Frigidaire built washer because of bearing failure.

 

[limey]

Corrosion by 'Bleach'

I forwarded the following email to 'The Clorox Company' a manufacturer of laundry bleach

'The pH of your 'bleaches' seems to be anywhere up to about 11.0.

It is a well-known and well-established fact that aluminium is corroded when immersed in an aqueous solution with a pH above about 8.0. As the MSDS's for Sodium Hypochlorite available 'on the web' almost all make reference to the corrosive capabilities against aluminium, some do just say 'metals'.
I would be interested in your comments on the performance, in this regard; of your product on the aluminium spiders found in front loading washing machines.
There are numerous reported incidents of spider corrosion and failure on the internet and/or although most of these seem to claim it is galvanic corrosion I do not agree. For it to be galvanic corrosion one would expect the majority of the corrosion to be at the junction of the dissimilar metals and on none of the photographs, or from the written descriptions, am I able to find one instance of this.
Thank you in anticipation.
Regards'

I have now received the following response, I think it speaks volumes.

'Thank you for contacting us about Clorox Plus Liquid Bleach. We always appreciate hearing from our consumers.

Unfortunately, we are unable to provide the information that you requested. While we make every effort to answer consumers' questions and comments in a thoughtful manner, occasionally requests will be made for materials or information that aren't available. I'm sorry that we cannot be more helpful.

Again, thank you for contacting us.
Sincerely,
Sherri Knight
Consumer Response Representative'

 

[davek]

They went to no expense to provide that answer.

Has anyone written a similar letter to the washer manufacturers? The use of Clorox is pretty common in North America, so it's more a manufacturing problem in that they know people will use it and should design the machine to permit its safe regular use.

 

[passatdoc]

Don't some of the "machine cleaning" protocols for FL washers (from the manufacturer) recommend the use of chlorine bleach when the machine is cleaned? I've seen a "Clean Machine" cycle on Whirlpools on display at Costco and am pretty sure the company recommends using chlorine bleach on this cycle. I don't know how these companies in good conscience can steer their customers toward using chlorine bleach. Plus, it doesn't descale, does it? If mold prevention is the goal, then train the consumer to wipe the gasket at the end of laundry day and to leave the door ajar when not in use.

Europeans have used these two strategies for years and you don't hear them complaining of mold in their machines. I realize that in some cases, US machines may be housed in settings that are warmer than a typical European laundry room (though Italy no doubt could match any US setting other than Arizona/Nevada for HOT). My washer is in the garage, which faces south, and in hot summer weather, the temperature may approach 90 F (33 C) inside the garage if I am not home to open the garage door for ventilation (the garage has a door for the cars, and a door to the kitchen, but no side door or window....there are three small grate vents as required by state law but they don't move much air). I have always left the FL door ajar and wiped the gasket, and have never had a problem, even in this "extreme" condition.

I perhaps used chlorine two or three times on my Frig 2140 before reading about the dangers on this site. Because the machine washed whites so much whiter than my old TL, there really was no need to use bleach. For the first three years of ownership, my monthly or quarterly "clean machine" protocol was simply running a heavy duty cycle on Hot, with no clothes, and a half dose of detergent. During the past year, I have added 1/3 cup citric acid and half a dose of detergent. The wash basket really sparkles after this treatment, and I can only hope it's descaling the outer tub which I can't see. Other posters here have disassembled tubs for "before" and "after" views when using citric acid and the results have been amazing.

I bought a five pound jar of citric acid on the internet (from a company that caters to home canners; health food stores often sell it). Cost was I think $18 plus about $5 postage. I use it quarterly to descale the washer and the dishwasher, and monthly to descale the coffee maker. At the rate I use it, the container should last 3-4 years. Five pounds is a BIG jar. Currently, Amazon sells this size for $28 with free shipping.

For years, I had used a descaler from True Value called "Perfect Brew". I noted on the packet that it was citric acid. I opened a package prior to use and measured it: one tablespoon, and it was sold in three-packs costing $5!!! $1.65 for one tablespoon of citric acid, vs. five pounds for about $23. The owner of our local appliance repair company for years had recommended using a half bottle of Lime Away in Rinse/Hold cycle in washing machines on a quarterly basis. I told him about being able to buy citric acid in large quantities and he felt citric acid would be a great descaler and possibly safer than using Lime Away.

I descale both FL and DW on a quarterly basis, using change of seasons as a reminder, which means it's time to do the summer descaling this week!

 

[limey]

Spider Corrosion By Laundry Aids

I have written to Frigidaire/Electrolux, Sears/Kenmore, Speed Queen and Whirlpool concerning these corrosion issues. Frigidaire and Sears have responded in the vein ‘thank you we will pass it on, now go away’ I can post their exact responses if required but I do not think any useful purpose would be served.
Whirlpool have not, as yet, responded which has extra interest, in that they also manufacture and market ‘Affresh’, which is a ‘tablet/sachet’ containing sodium carbonate and sodium percarbonate which is supposed to clear mould, likely it will have some effect in this regard but there are many instances on the web where the posters state that it has not been totally successful. This could mean that they are selling a product that has the potential to damage their own machines.
Speed Queen were kind enough to tell me that their spiders were of an aluminium alloy with a forged steel shaft, and sent me photographs when I asked if there were any recesses close to the hub, there are not. They however have not responded to my corrosion concerns.
I have also sent an email, similar to the one I sent to Chlorox, to Church and Dwight, the manufacturer’s of OxiClean, which contains sodium carbonate and sodium percarbonate. As yet I have received no response.
Will post updates as and when I receive them.
The picture is of a 4.5 year old Frigidaire built Kenmore showing the foul smelling 'crud' that has built up in the recesses of the spider hub. This machine was dismantled because of bearing failure and the terrible smell.[this post was last edited: 6/29/2010-13:01]

 

[davek]

Your picture is very revealing in a lot of ways. They make the parts that the customer can see out of stainless, while a meaty part just out of sight is cost-cut into oblivion. A difference of just a couple of dollars on a multi-hundred dollar machine would make a huge difference in life. It appears that the stank growth is dependent on the rough surface of the corrosion to get established.

 

[passatdoc]

Is OxyClean supposed to be bad for aluminum spiders? Or only liquid chlorine bleach? I've also read that softened water is bad for aluminum spiders.

 

[limey]

Dave first.
Not entirely true, a rough surface and corrosion build up will, in my opinion, assist the initial water retention at the end of the last spin cycle. The spider in the second picture had very little corrosion, which actually surprised me. However the owner, one of my sisters’-in-law’, stated that she rarely used bleach. She initially asked me to look at the machine because of ‘the smell’; once I got beyond ‘the smell’ I discovered that the bearings were on the way out. ‘The smell’ and the bearings seem to be the two most common failures on this particular breed of machine. Prior to the bearing failure on our machine, see first picture, on the first post, my wife, who has a much more sensitive nose than I, had been complaining of a moldy mildewy’ smell coming from the machine. It was not until after the repair that I first put 2 and 2 together when she told me there was no more ‘smell’.
Please see my first post for a description of how I believe corrosion and ‘crud’ build-up starts. Should you desire more please let me know and I will bore you with details?

Doc,
Anything, in liquid form and that includes pastes with a pH above about 8.0 is corrosive to aluminium, logically therefore, OxiClean would be corrosive to aluminium should it be present in sufficient concentration. As for the softened water, I have heard that too but am unable to say anything further as I do not know what the pH of the softened water is, and it will vary from locality to locality and type of softener used.
You can waste quite a few hours, should you be so inclined, just ‘Google’ “Corrosion of Aluminium”.

To find out what the pH of various chemicals is ‘Google’ “Chemical’s Name MSDS” (MSDS= Material Safety Data Sheet). Two things to remember, when you are dealing with solutions you need to know the concentration for the pH value quoted and two the pH scale is logarithmic (to the base 10), 0 is totally acidic, 7 is neutral and 14 is totally alkaline (or base). This means that a solution with a pH of 9.0 is ten times more alkaline than one with a pH of 8.0, and one with a pH of 10.0 is one hundred times more alkaline than one with a pH of 8.0. By the way a pH below about 4.0 is also corrosive to aluminium, except Nitric Acid. How’s that for complicating the issue.

 

[joe_in_philly]

I have ordered STPP (Sodium Tripolyphosphate) from chemistrystore.com a few years ago - I do see they have citric acid for sale at $7.97/2lb Jar, $21.81/7lb Pail - not including shipping. Even with shipping costs, it would be cheaper than the $1.65 for one tablespoon of "Perfect Brew!"

Shopping - Products by The Chemistry Store.com

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www.chemistrystore.com

 

[combo52]

BAD SMELLING WASHERS AND CORRODED SPIDERS

This has been discussed many times on this site. Anytime you have a smelly washer either TL or FL you aren't using it correctly, you are not getting clean clothes out of it either. Use hot water always in low water use machines. Bleach has nothing to do with corrosion of the spider, in fact it helps clean the machine and reduce the gunk build up on the spider and other parts which will extend the life of the washer. It generally should not be necessary to clean the inside of washers and dishwashers if they are being used correctly even in hard water areas you do need to use the correct amount of cleaning products to do the job at hand.I have rebuilt thousands of washers and have noticed no problems with corrosion in washers where the customers that use a lot of LCB. Please note all TL washers have important aluminum parts that are exposed to water usually the tub mounting parts and we have seen association with LCB damage.

 

[limey]

Spider Corrosion By Bleach

To Combo52
We both live in free countries so you are entitled to your views the same as I am entitled to mine.
Attached is a photograph of the spider removed from my 7.5-year-old Frigidaire built Kenmore machine showing what one drop of bleach, straight from the bottle, did to it by just leaving it overnight. Now tell me bleach does not corrode aluminium.
I know that the concentration I used is greater than that normally found in washing machines during the cycle but please see my explanation of how I perceive the corrosion process takes place in the first post on this thread.
In actual fact if you check, I believe you will find that bleach, although it will kill mould spores, does not actually remove them, just makes it easier for other cleaners to do so.

 

[combo52]

BLEACH CORROSION ON SPIDERS

Put your washer together and run a load through the complete cycle using the recommended amount of LCB then dissemble and recheck the results. Putting a drop of full strength bleach will corrode aluminum but thats not a fair test. LCB will kill you if you drink it full strength yet its safe to drink @ the proper dose for disinfecting water. Your test is not valid unless done under actual use conditions. As stated in the last post I have far more experience with this matter plus I have all the major appliance manufactures on my side. You would have to do a trial with at least 100 washers over a 5 year period 1/2 with LCB and 1/2 with out and show the results before I would give your theory any credibility.

 

[surgilator_68]

Bleach has minimal if any effect on the aluminum parts when diluted. I have seen far more broken and failed spiders, corroded and disintegrated hubs, drive blocks and pumps in machines that have NEVER seen so much as a drop of bleach. Preventing corrosion has more to do with proper dosage of detergent and proper water temp. That is why detergents contain corrosion inhibitors or machine protectants.

For over 23 years we have serviced and supplied the machines both top and front load home use equipment for a medical facility that uses more than 3 cups of bleach in each load. Each machine on average washes 8 loads a day, every day. That comes out to 547.5 gallons per year. The average life of the machine is 5 years which comes out to 2,737.5 gallons over the life of the machine( if my math is correct). Not one of these machines was replaced due to any aluminum failure and they all have aluminum parts.

 

[alr2903]

I once jokingly asked are the spiders in the old westy's and bendix machines, made out ot kryptonite. I have seldom seen a post searching for a spider for a west or a bendix. That said, maybe there is a quality control issue with the aluminum quality used in the modern spiders? Another thought is when Sears started running TV ads for these machines, they were quick to state you can wash 22 towels. I have craigslist Maytags, But if i did have a $1000.00 FL machine i think i still might take an oversize king size comforter to the coin op, as i do now. Could it be metal fatigue? Just a thought. I still do not know what the westy and bendix system used, anyone? alr2903

 

[mark_wpduet]

I know someone who has a 2001 He3t (or one of the early Kenmore He machines) not a frigemore.....At any rate, their washer has only had a pump replaced and so far, that's it. I use bleach in mine (just a small amt for whites) the dispenser doesn't allow for a lot anyway. A gallon of bleach lasts me for a LONG time...No smell at all in my washer. I hope it lasts 5 more years

 

[limey]

To Surgilator
I quite agree with you. Your story about the machines at the medical facility only goes to add credence to my theory. They will rarely, if ever dry out, therefore the concentration of bleach and other impurities will rarely, if ever, reach a level where corrosion can occur. Additionally I’ll bet they never got any foul odours either, the systems would be regularly flushed with ‘fresh water and additives’ it is when the small quantities of water and additives left behind start to dry out that the problems start.

I have, in addition to the companies I have listed above, contacted Proctor and Gamble, the manufacturer’s of inter alia Tide about the pH of various types of ‘Tide’. Their initial responses, written and verbal, were in the vein of ‘Non of our products cause any corrosion to any washing machine parts’ but when further challenged the requested a telephone discussion that took place towards the end of last year. I asked them to summarise, in writing, our conversation, this is what they sent me.

‘David,

Thanks for speaking with us the other week regarding your concerns about the pH of laundry products and potential corrosion issues with the aluminum alloys used in washing machines.

As we discussed, P&G believes that our laundry products are compatible for use with washing machines containing aluminum spiders and do not cause premature failure of the machines due to corrosion. This is based on the following:

o Laundry detergents around the world typically have a pH above 8.0 for effective cleaning. This is true for P&G detergents as well as detergents from other manufacturers.
o In our in-lab multicycle technical testing, P&G has not observed an incompatibility between our laundry products and the aluminum spider causing the washing machine to no longer function.
o Based on our discussions with appliance manufacturers, it is our understanding that the aluminum alloy spider is designed to be compatible with typical laundry products under normal usage conditions.
o While front loading washing machines with aluminum spiders have been in North America for a little over a decade, similarly designed washers have been in use in Europe for much longer. Even with a higher rate of powder detergent and bleach usage, we have not observed any widespread machine failure related to aluminum alloy corrosion caused by laundry products.

Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks again for sharing pictures of your machine. We are still looking over the pictures and will share any thoughts separately.’

Notice they no longer say that their products do not cause corrosion but do say that they do not cause premature failure due to corrosion, a very subtle difference. Additionally, if I were a betting man, I would say that their multicycle technical testing, would be very similar to your example with the medical facility i.e. the machines rarely get a chance to dry out.

Second point, not made in the communication, but during the discussion they admitted that they rarely tested their products in conjunction with any other laundry aids.

Third point. I advised them of the test I conducted on my spider with the bleach, their initial reaction was, the same as mine had been, and to a certain extent combo52’s above, that the concentration was way above that normally found in washing machines. I fully agree, however when I explained how I believed the concentration could reach a level where corrosion could occur, I was greeted with a prolonged silence, and there were three of them talking to me. No contradictions, no arguments, no counter suggestions. From there we moved on. I can only assume that the three people I was talking to had some level of technical expertise. They certainly seemed to. Additionally they appeared to be speaking freely not from some pre-arranged script.

 

[sudsman]

Any product will damage a machine if used incorrectly

or to excess raw bleach will damage anything.. So just what did you expect?

 

[laundromat]

Westiinghouse and Bendix front loaders---

--- if I remember correctly,theirs were made of porcelain on steel.Not aluminum. I could be wrong.I never remember any of the front loaders I saw growing up and had,once I could grab them,having any aluminum parts.Even cast aluminum.I know that the maytags (Helical and Dependable Drive Trannies were made of a galvinised pig iron.Sort of similar to cast aluminum but a bit stronger.

 

[limey]

Spider Corrosion By Laundry Aids

To sudsman
By now I hope you realise just how ridiculous the first sentence of your post is. Should raw bleach as you put it, I used a 5% solution, as I said straight from the bottle, damage anything, it would damage any container it was put in, as this is clearly not the case your statement is without foundation.
As for your second sentence ‘What did you expect?’ To be quite frank I did not, at that time, know what to expect. When I first saw the build up of corrosion on the spider I removed from our machine I thought it was galvanic corrosion, being very familiar with galvanic corrosion in a marine environment, i.e. steel and seawater, I jumped to a conclusion, the wrong one!
There is an interesting paper at www.unene.ca/un1001_galvanic corrosion.ppt by D.H. Lister and W.G. Cook.
I had just ‘Googled’ “Corrosion of Aluminium” and discovered that it, aluminium, is corroded when immersed in an aqueous solution with a pH above about 8.0 or below about 4.0. My immediate reaction was ‘bleach and vinegar’, bleach because it is alkaline i.e. has a pH above 7.0 and vinegar because it is acidic i.e. has a pH below 7.0. At that time I was not aware of the pH value of the two liquids in question. Additionally my wife had been in the habit of using both, not at the same time, in our washing machine. The result for the bleach you can see above, the vinegar evaporated with, as far as I could see no damage to the spider.
I would add that the products of corrosion shown in the photograph above were very similar to the deposits I had found on the spider initially. They were also quite difficult to remove in both cases. The pressure washer failed to completely remove the deposits I initially found and wire brushing with a soft wire brush was required for the material immediately adjacent to the metal after my experiment.