Spin Drain vs Neutral Drain

[ken]

I almost posted this in the recent thread started by jkbff (Joshua) asking for TL suggestions but then decided it may be better to start a new thread rather than hijacking the other.

Been giving some serious thought to buying a SQ TL myself after seeing the recent discussion here about them still being a straight forward "old school" design. Thought I should get one before they go the way of electronics.

From YT vids I see SQ uses a spin drain. Would have to believe this places much more load on the machine as a whole but most importantly the mechanical system as opposed to a neutral drain machine?

Ive seen debate concerning spin drain vs neurtal drain as to which leaves clothes cleaner. And comments that some neutral drain machines leave a ring around the tub and develop an odor. I have to say our 2003 GE, which is a neutral drain, doesnt leave the clothes dirty. It doesnt have a dirt ring around the tub or any funky odors.

I saw a YT vid of a late 60s GE's that did a spin drain. So I assume somewhere along the line GE changed to neutral drain. IIRC most vids Ive seen of many different brands of 50s-60s washers used spin drain.

I guess the manufacturer takes this into consideration when building the machine and all should be okay?

 

[kenmore71]

This debate goes back to the initial designs and marketing of top loading washers back in the late 40s and 1950s.  Do some searching around the archives and you will find 100s of posts on the subject.

 

[ken]

Sounds like its been hotly debated here.

 

[yogitunes]

theres pros and cons to each design, as with anything.......

for my own machines with neutral drain, never seen an issue, we are the exception to the rule, so take us out of the equation.....but watch others.....for instance, I have SIL, who washes the world in COLD water only, to her the clothes come out clean, and doesn't seem to be a ring in a neutral drain machine, but once a year I have to open the machine, and clean the scum ring build up around the inner and outter tub, plus scrub the heck out of the splash shield......of which HOT water makes is all melt away...

then again, I have a brother who's a mechanic, and washes his greasy work clothes(hot water) in a Maytag spin drain, and it leaves a grimy film all over the entire machine...

so it can happen to any given type of machine.....I think what works best for any machine, is proper temp and wash time, and enough detergent to hold the dirt in suspension until it can be drained and rinsed away....so throwing a monkey wrench into any one of these variables can start to show a build up over time if continued...

 

[golittlesport]

I think SQ may be the only washer that spin-drains these days

 

[washman]

Genuine Maytags and GM built Frigidaire

had spin drain. I can't say for certain on the other classic brands such as Kelvinator, Blackstone, or Hamilton.

FWIW, I have had BOTH types. First was a GE profile, neutral drain. No problems with lint, fuzz, soap scum, or anything.

It died.

Bought a SQ, my very first spin drain washer. No problems with lint, fuzz, soap scum, or anything.

I honestly believe it comes down to flip a coin on this issue. Or depends on whom you talk to. Ford vs Chevy. Apple vs PC. 2% vs whole milk. You'll have limitless opinions on this topic.

Do your homework, research carefully then make the best decision that suits your budget and needs.

 

[dnastrau]

GE FF = spin drain

We had an early '90s GE Filter Flo that did a spin drain.  They must have stayed with this at least until they totally redesigned their washers around 1995 or so.

 

[mattywashboy]

There is a Sharp machine made in Malaysia that still appears to spin drain. I have not seen a video but from their advertising material it seems that way. They advertise a "Hole-less Drum" designed to save water. Take a look....

Also, for the Australian market, Speed Queen eliminated the spin drain from their domestic machines. Not quite sure why as the commercial machines in the laundromats all still spin drain. The Speed Queen we have at work does not spin drain but it sure empties the tub fast!, such a powerful pump!

sharp.com.my

This domain may be for sale!

www.sharp.com.my

 

[mattywashboy]

Also I mentioned on a thread some time ago this Electrolux top loader that Spin Drains also. Currently in production.

This machine seems to faff about a bit but still cool to watch

 

[rp2813]

Where Is That Eye-Roll Button When You Need It?

This issue is about as "hotly" contested as the gas range vs. electric one.

 

I predict you'll get an equal amount of arguments for either system, so you're still going to have to make up your own mind.

 

 

 

[jeffg]

What Ralph said. But having used both I prefer neutral drain, mainly because the reduced weight puts much less strain on the washer's motor and suspension during spin cycles. It's also quieter.

In another thread someone claimed Australian SQ TL models have neutral drain, and I asked whether it's just a matter of swapping timers to get the feature on U.S. models. If thefixer or anyone knows, details would be appreciated.

 

[thefixer]

A simple timer swap would not do it. Most likely, in addition to a different timer, they would be using an electric pump or a major design change in the drivetrain.

 

[mayfan69]

Australian SQ's

Hi Jeff

Yes, Australian SQ's for domestic use have electric pumps and have done this for probably 20+ years now. The timer is different with the added electric pump.

Dependable Care Maytags from 1994 onwards for the Australian market also had electric pumps fitted with a different timer.

Cheers
Leon

 

[kenmore71]

That's very curious about Australian Speed Queens and the Maytags.  Do you know what the specific reason for this was?  Was it concerning some government regulation?

 

[jeffg]

Thanks for the info. Do you know if Alliance kept provisions for an added pump (mounts, blank terminals etc) in US models? If so it sounds like an easy project.

 

[mayfan69]

Specific reasons.....

@ Mark: from what i can gather, the reason both companies went to neutral drains was for complaints regarding linting. You have to remember that the vast majority of Australians hang their washing on a clothes line and don't use big dryers like you do, so any lint will always show up once the clothes are dried. Whereas, when our US and Canandian cousins wash their clothes, they mostly immediatly put it in the dryer.

I do have a Kleenmaid service bulletin (which Speed Queen were branded as here in Oz for many years) which does mention this and SQ Australia provided serviceman with a conversion kit for existing spin-drain SQ's to convert them to neutral drain machines.

I will have to dig it out and see what it entails.

Jeff, i'll need to find the wiring diagram for my AWN 552 SQ and maybe email it to you.

Cheers
Leon

 

[DigAPony]

That's very curious about Australian Speed Queens

That is because the Coriolis deflection force causes water to drain backwards south of the equator. So rather than redesign washers for the southern hemisphere Speed Queen retrofitted them to a neutral drain...

 

[Chetlaham]

wiring diagram for my AWN 552 SQ

Send me one to, Im dying to know how an electric pump washer works! Ive noticed it to, most top loads outside of the US made within the US and else where are all neutral drain.

 

 

Coriolis effect, might be a reason. however, just to note Ive seen older GEs spin counter clockwise while other spin drain washers spin clock wise like speed queen.  

 

[Unimatic1140]

Hi guys, I've been quiet on this subject for a while, but I throw in my opinion on all this. The reason I should give my opinion on this is because I've skimmed many a threads where this has been discussed and I see a lot of "information" given out that I've rolled my eyes at. The reason for that is because I actually HAVE all different kinds of these machines currently hooked up in my basement and use them. My experience with this is current and I'm not talking through memories or what I've heard somewhere.

Here are some things I've seen claimed:

Claim #1: "Neutral drain is superior because a perforated-tub spin drain will leave specs and lint all over the clothes, due to the water re-sloshing back over the top of the tub during spin-drain process." Well I have both a Maytag 806 and a perforated-tub GE Filter-Flo hooked up that I use all the time. I never, ever remember seeing any residual lint or other schmootz left on the clothes and believe me I do look for stuff like that. If that was truly the case Consumer Reports would have said something about that and wouldn't have rated spin-drain machines so high over the years. I've been using these machines for years and have no evidence of this happening, ever.

Claim #2: Neutral drain is like straining through a filter. Well it sort of is, but any good neutral drain washer will have a quick spray rinse to alleviate this issue. I have a belt-drive, neutral drain Lady Kenmore and I also never remember seeing anything of substantial left on the clothes. I've also used DD Whirlpool design washers and again it seems to be a none issue.

Claim #3: Whirlpool went out of their way to create a neutral drain washer early on. Well I've seen no evidence of this in their early patents, while I might have missed that one, I have yet to find it. I spent quite a lot of time researching patents for the Patent of the Day. I believe the reason Whirlpool went for a neutral drain in the 1940's is their design was not conducive to a spin drain and would have put a major strain on it's system due to the way it was designed. My spin-drain machines wouldn't have lasted for 60 years if spin-draining was somewhat of a major strain, that's because they were designed to properly handle the extra strain. I do know that early on the DD was a spin-drain, but I had read somewhere that they had issues with leaks and that was the major reason for them returning to a neutral drain. I'll have to look for that document and post it, I know I have it somewhere.

Claim #4: All manufacturers will go to a neutral-drain. I suspect this is a correct claim, but not because a neutral drain is superior in any way. I believe it is cheaper to design a neutral-drain machine because you do not have to consider the strain on the components and it necessary to have having a tighter, more expensive seal system to prevent leaks the top of the outer tub.

Claim #5: Solid-tub washers leave residue on the clothes because a majority the water goes in towards the agitator first before it exits.That is true, I've see the water do this, yet at the same time I never have any issue with material left of on the clothing in any of my solid-tub machines, and I have many different designs in my collection. The overflow rinse gets rid of most if not all of the floating material. I do believe solid-tub washers are superior in rinsing, at least that has been my experience over the years. With non-recirculating solid tub washers, once the water and dirt is spun out of the tub, there is no way for it to ever come in contact with the clothes again in subsequent loads, even if it stays in the outer tub. Granted if you have heavy grit or sand in the clothes it's best to shake them out a bit, but that would be a non-issue in most households. On rare occasions when I do find a bit of left over, it always seems to be at the bottom of the tub and not on the clothes, it's easy to wipe away once the machine is unloaded.

So to sum it up, my opinion on there really isn't much difference between neutral and spin drain, just spin drain IMO is more fun to watch! Of course that is the most important aspect of it all