Spin Drain vs Neutral Drain

[Chetlaham]

Long neutral drains

From personal observation older whirlpools used to do 4 minute drain based on the cycle charts on the back of the machine. The water would usually be gone in about 1 minute 30 seconds, but the machine would just it there. Im guessing it was done around worst case senerio conditions?

Plasti tub GEs have a long drain period but never timed it. I do know the newer portables have a 6 minute drain time but I think that has to do more with the fact its draining into a sink.

 

[yogitunes]

Whirlpools super capacity belt drive machines have a 4 minute drain, mainly because of the extra water...standard capacity only ran for 2 minutes...

some portables had a longer drain phase, only because of the chance of using the unicoupler which was a smaller hose, and taking longer to drain....

a lot of electronic machines gauged drain times based on the pressure switch resetting, and allowing enough time to drain the outter tub, and then kick into spin.....this saved the most time for when washing a small load....

 

[mrb627]

Whirlpool belt drive

I always thought the Whirlpool belt drive machines used a four minute drain because forcing water through a potentially partial self cleaning filter clog could take longer than the two minute increment.

Malcolm

 

[DADoES]

 
Our 1976 18lb capacity LDA7800 drained a full fill in a few seconds less than 2 minutes when it was new.  Years later it took a little longer than 2 minutes, presumably after the filter had accumulated some residue as Malcolm says.

 

[washman]

Malcolm

my mom's 80's era WP was a neutral drain and it had the bed-of-nails lint filter as opposed to the self cleaning (as her older Kennmore did). It took about 3-4 minutes to drain before the timer kicked the trans into spin.

 

[yogitunes]

I have a 1985 Supreme large capacity......it has both the underbasket comb filter, and a bed of nails manual filter...and it drains in about 90 seconds, the rest is just wasted time....

the standard capacity just has a bed of nails manual filter, and roughly over a minute its empty...

I always had standard capacities of the models from the 60's and 70's, and a variety of filters, they all seemed to just have a 2 minute drain...

actually I was looking more at not which was better or preferred, but why each manufacturer picked the one that they did...

 

[washman]

Speed Queen, when owned by Mcgraw Edison

advertised "fluid drive" that minimized starting shock to the mechanism when put into spin. I don't rightly know what exactly that was but it must have been some marketing bonus otherwise they would not have mentioned it. Perhaps other brands had issues when going from dead stop to spin? Dunno.

My goal is to find an Arc-Cuate transmission and tear it down to see what makes it tick.

Next goal is to find where the missing 30 degrees of agitation stroke is in my washer.

Finally, figure out the right dose of Roma detergent that cleans the damn clothes without a plethora of suds. Half cup is far too little; full cup is suds city. See my post on this for pix.

 

[beekeyknee]

Fluid drive in a washing machine is kind of like an automatic transmission in a car. The rotors or turbine fins in the drive are close together with oil in the compartment. When one rotor spins the oil pushes against the other rotor and transfers the motion or energy w/o direct contact. The same principle applies in jet engines, electricity production and so forth. The differences are what substance is used to transfer the energy, such as air, water, transmission fluid (oil), burning jet fuel and steam. Magnetic drive and turbo-electric are other examples of non-direct energy transfer.

 

[norgechef]

Well, I know these machines aren't even made any more bu

I have always liked these machines and always thought the Maytag Performa/Atlantis platform machines would have been more reliable if they had electric pumps that did a neutral drain before the washer immediately started spinning, putting all that strain on the plastic transmission and the motor. I also know for a fact that the motor's in spin drain washers heat up allot more than those in neutral drain washers.

The cheap plastic input pinion gear can not handle the clutch spring riding on it during the spin drain, which I would assume is the reason the transmission's were so unreliable in the norgetag's. I know I can hear something grinding in my norgetag while the washer is spinning slowly, and the grinding sound fades out as the washer gets up to full speed.

So, I would have to agree with whoever thinks spin drains are better. I also have horrible issues with linting on a spin drain that have never been apparent when using neutral drain washers.I have seen several tub seals fail on norgetag's, I also blame that on the spin drains. So in terms of reliability id say it's a good thing that there are barely any washers left that do spin drains, even though most modern washers are complete crap anyways...however, spin drains are more fun to watch than a boring neutral drain with the annoying sounds of an electric pump.

As for the old helical/orbital drive Maytag's, spin drains never seemed to be a problem with lint removal or dependability, and im pretty sure Speed Queens are also able to last a long time while doing spin drains. I guess it just matters how heavy duty the washer really is...but id say washer's that do neutral drains work better performance wise too. I have used Whirlpool Direct Drives, Newer Whirlpool Belt Drives, Electrolux/Frigidaire Gallery washers and an LG Intellowasher, all of which do neutral drains, and have had excellent lint removal. On my norgetag...not so much.

 

[arbilab]

When Maytag did spin drain (old days) only the belt took up the slack (so to speak) and it was readily replaceable. Whirlpools at the same time were neutral; if they weren't they would have needed new clutches every year or so (they didn't).

Fluid coupling was the most mechanically elegant, at the cost of an additional machined assembly. Maytag was the most economically elegant, did the job by slipping the cheapest part. I don't know how GE did it (someone here does).

I also don't know exactly what was inside the original Westinghouse gearbox, besides a planetary gearset. The later Ws were pretty ingenious, with roughly a 2:1 startup ratio provided only by the belt and sliding sheave, inexpensive and easily replaced parts. Both W models were 'neutral' though tumble speed continued during drain.

No idea what Bendix did. Or how Easy accelerated its spin basket. I know how Panasonic did in their twintub, a direct drive 1800RPM motor designed to limit its own startup current. As today's HE airconditioners do with their fan motors.

 

[cleanteamofny]

Gravity plays a big roll!

Still both ways has pro and cons and achieving the ultimate goal of remove water from clothing. The thing I do not like about spin drain is that the wash is sitting in dirty water for close to 2 minuets before timer advances to drain. As for neutral drain, the water is immediately pumped out and with the motor vibration has a ultrasonic effect that helps keep the dirt in suspension which does not filter through clothing re-depositing.

The straining effect is more so in the spin drain motion because the heavy dirt particle is the last to leave the tub since the water is held in suspension for a long period of time before spinning is commence and then at the same time dirt getting trapped in the folds of fabric while being pushed up against the basket waiting for the spray rinse to dislodge these particles.

Take a step back and look at the theory and then make judgment on who comes out on top!

 

[Chetlaham]

Frigdaire Unimatics

Ive always wondered how they achieve spin draining without a clutch. Or is there one inside that Im not seeing?

 

[DirectDriveDave]

Not an expert on Unimatics

But from what I have read, I don't think there was any clutch, it was all a (more or less) direct connection. 

 

[Unimatic1140]

To reiterate what I was trying to say above, we hear a lot about theory and supposed problems associated with both types of draining. I hear that neutral-drain causes one set of issues and spin-drain causes another set of issues. The trouble with all that is I'm finding in real life applications, having these machines hooked-up side by side each other, they generally perform nearly the same by the end of the cycle. The end result is clean, particulate free clothing from both drain types and all of the things that are claimed to be an issue don't seem to actually show up, at least not in our machines. Believe me both Fred and I are very particular about everything being clean, the house, dishes, clothes and ourselves and we would notice right away if something is off, which it isn't. The only difference between the two is the amount of water left in the clothes simply due the difference in spin speed. Now I'm talking automatics 1967 and earlier, I've never used an Atlantis so it might have a linting issue, but that could be caused by many things and not necessarily a spin-drain.

It would be fun to come up with some test to see how the machines perform, but again if it take test cases to cause these issues that do not show themselves normally in real life applications, then at least in my book they really aren't issues after all.

As for the Unimatic yes there is no clutch whatsoever, it is 100% direct drive, so it goes from 0 to 1140rpm in 30 seconds! Like everything that process has good and bad points. The bad is that on smaller loads revving up so fast has a tendency to throw the load out of balance and trip the unbalance switch, on the positive there is no waste of time and washload is properly spun in only 4 minutes and the wash-day drama is over-the-top {(pardon the pun }.

 

[coreyare]

I always regarded spin-drain a much more fun cycle than the neutral drain, so much that I would actually force our old DD Whirlpool into spindrain, God knows how this would affect the spin gear on it, but we got the Speed Queen before that was destined to be a problem, since mold and mildew was becoming an issue.

The issue I have found with this spin drain method, is that some clothing would hold pockets of water and throw the machine for a dance breifly, in addtion possible premature wear on clutches.

Doe's anyone know if its possible to force an older belt drive WP/KM into spin drain?

 

[DADoES]

 
<blockquote>Doe's anyone know if its possible to force an older belt drive WP/KM into spin drain?</blockquote> Spin-drain can be done by holding the water level switch at mid-position, or at reset if it's a variable control.  Spin solenoid runs through the water level circuit and will energize only when the water level switch is in "reset/empty" mode.

However, spin-drain will result in leaking through the mounting slots at top of the tub for the tub ring clips if the water kicks up that high.

 

[thefixer]

"Spin-drain can be done by holding the water level switch at mid-position, or at reset"

That won't work because the timer won't be closing it's contact for the spin solenoid until the drain period (2-4-5 minutes or whatever it is for belt drives) has ended.

 

[DADoES]

 
The timer, of course, must be manually advanced into spin.

 

[cleanteamofny]

On the BD machines, the washer will spin with water in the tub and stop because the water level switch activates calling the washer to stop spinning and continue to drain until a lower water level is achieved to commence to a full speed spin.

 

[thefixer]

It cannot spin until the water level switch is in empty position and the 2 minute drain period has ended. Timer chart that I have for a belt drive shows a 2 minute drain period.

 

[mrb627]

Water Level Switch

Resets to empty long before the tub is empty on a Whirlpool BD machine. You can force a reset by holding the dial between two positions or all the way at reset if it is a variable switch.

Malcolm

Of course you must skip,the neutral drain position(s) on the timer.

 

[DADoES]

 
TheFixer,

As I and others have explained, belt-drive Whirlpool and Kenmore washers can be tricked to do a spin-drain, but it is a manual, hands-on procedure.  I did this many times on a 1962 Whirlpool.

Procedure:

1)  When the timer gets to a drain period, either after wash agitation or rinse agitation ... manually advance it to spin.

2a)  If the water level switch has fixed positions, hold the knob between any two positions to force it to "reset."

2b)  If the water level switch is variable, turn and hold the knob at the designated Reset position.

3)  Voila!  Spin-drain.

Also as I said previously, leaking will probably occur if the water kicks up high enough.  Surely on high water level, less likely on a small load ... medium loads depends on the circumstances.  I stuck putty around the tub clip slots in an attempt to stop the leaking, which it worked for the most part but accelerated rusting of the tub clips since water routinely got up there when it normally doesn't.

 

[alr2903]

Our 1970's Kenmore had "Spin only" printed on the dial. The Kenmore Laundry guide printed instruction was, to close the lid only after visible water had drained. (or something to that effect) This was the very early center dial machine with the brushed chrome panel. IIRC, "spin only" was the final spin portion of the "knit" cycle. Rinse and Spin was also marked and I believe was the rinse and spin portion of the regular cycle. Of course these 2 common sense markings were counted as separate cycles. Naturally rinse and spin allowed the timer to neutral drain and advance to spin all on it's own. I do remember that if you closed the lid too soon on "spin" only the basket stopped and it would try again immediately.. Thanks for the discussion I had forgotten about "close the lid after the water has drained", that would not fly today.

 

[DADoES]

 
If the water level switch is not manually held to reset, a belt-drive machine set to spin with a full load of water will remain in neutral drain until the water drains enough to reset the switch (like on a perm press cool down drain), then spin will start.  When the swirling water kicks up high enough to trigger the switch again, it'll revert back to neutral drain until the water drops down, then back to spin.  Spin --> neutral-drain --> spin --> neutral-drain --> spin will repeat until the remaining water no longer kicks up high enough during spin to trigger the pressure switch.

 

[alr2903]

Glenn you are exactly right. I was a teenager at home at the time. The folks had just purchased the machine. I agree with and understand what you are saying. I was unnerved by the start stop start routine. I don't think I ever attempted the "spin only" cycle again. I was afraid I would break or ruin her new machine. It did indeed cure my curiosity about the cycle. Thankyou for clarifying what I was trying to say.

 

[llmaytag]

Spin Drain vs Neutral Drain

I've always preferred spin drain, and I always thought that Maytag may have used it because at one time, it was perhaps a simpler design and appeared easy to implement with one motor. When the motor drives the belt in one direction the transmission agitates, and the pump does nothing, or at least doesn't pump water out. When the motor turns in the other direction, the transmission spins the tub, and the pump drains out the water. On the surface, that seems a simple design, perhaps easier to implement for a small tub, like the original Maytag automatics, and it lasted forever.

Like someone else mentioned, one thing I like about the spin drain is that the clothes are spread across a larger area of the tub during spin which I think provides better extraction and perhaps allows the spin-spray to have better results. Observing my SQ AWN432 and AWN542, it pumps the water out very quickly even as the tub is still picking up speed and I've never observed the water sloshing the top....I think it's pumped out too quickly. My 542 drains into a laundry tub/sink and when we ran it for the first time, water jetted out from the hose so quickly that it splashed all over the room!

This tub has a special thingy on the corner with a hole intended for the insertion of the drain hose from the washer, but we had to put a section of PCV pipe of larger diameter over the hose which is held in place by the rubber fitting that came at the end of the washer hose. This PCV section hangs several inches short of the bottom of the tub so it controls the splash. Anyway, that SQ tub drains completely, less than a minute, even when I force the water level higher by holding the level sector down, {I still have to open it up and make the adjustment so I don't have to hold the selector down}.

 

[washman]

I dig spin drain

and my SQ is the first machine I owned that has it. I really get excited when I hear the 1/2 HP motor wind up and move the tub with authority.

 

[thefixer]

You can add a simple relay to a BD to get spin drain. Iv'e shown that here but actual wiring will depend on specific model. Wiring diagrams are different, some have suds valves...etc. Relay switch is normally closed. No power through it when washer is filling. When pressure switch goes to full, agitate solenoid is energized as is new relay, preventing power to spin solenoid. At end of wash cycle, timer contact 2 closes and stays closed until rinse fill or end of cycle. When power is removed to relay when 7 opens, switch closes providing power to spin solenoid at same time washer goes into drain.

 

[Chetlaham]

Wont spin draining a belt drive whirlpool burn up the belt? Ive never tried it but if the machine can handle it sounds like a new adventure

 

[DADoES]

 
<blockquote>Wont spin draining a belt drive whirlpool burn up the belt?</blockquote> The clutch slips by design during spin acceleration, no effect on the belt.  Think about what happens when the basket is dragging during a suds-lock.  The belt doesn't burn up then, right?