So, here comes the DUH question (pity me my ignorance): if steam cleaning is superior (Superb?), why has no other manufacturer stolen this for their own use? I recently borrowed my boss' Scunci steamer and it really kicks cleaning things like a barbecue grill up some notches.
Thermador Steam Machine
- Thread starter deeptub
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kenmore1978
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Thermador (and other DW) loading techniques
I often improvise loading things, in a situation like the upper rack being perfectly flat, one simply props up an item with something like a coffee cup or other small bowl to give the large item a little tilt. Another trick is to put a small light plastic item under a heavy item. The smal litem will then not get knocked over, but stil won't interfere with the large item over it getting clean. Other tricks are to put large pan lids on top of light plastic items, manuvering the handles of pots or pans and leaning bowls over so that they trap plastic items. I've taken cookie sheets laid them down in the bottom rack so that they lean over (if machine has center tower) or completely flat (if no center tower) with either no dishes under it, or small plates/saucers that allow the water to reach the cookie sheet. I often do this with rally dirty pots, pans, and skillets, so the get the full force of the bottom spray arm.
Just takes a little imagination.
I often improvise loading things, in a situation like the upper rack being perfectly flat, one simply props up an item with something like a coffee cup or other small bowl to give the large item a little tilt. Another trick is to put a small light plastic item under a heavy item. The smal litem will then not get knocked over, but stil won't interfere with the large item over it getting clean. Other tricks are to put large pan lids on top of light plastic items, manuvering the handles of pots or pans and leaning bowls over so that they trap plastic items. I've taken cookie sheets laid them down in the bottom rack so that they lean over (if machine has center tower) or completely flat (if no center tower) with either no dishes under it, or small plates/saucers that allow the water to reach the cookie sheet. I often do this with rally dirty pots, pans, and skillets, so the get the full force of the bottom spray arm.
Just takes a little imagination.
Dish Sauna?
I suspect that the steam cycle on these machines doesn't get much hotter than the sanitary cycle on other machines so as not to hurt the dishes and plastic items. If that is the case, wouldn't this be more like a sauna or steam room for dishes rather than an actual concentrated blast of steam that scrubs them clean? My impression always was that the steam cycle was more of a hot "soak" keeping the dishes moist and warm helping to soak & loosen the soil which is carried away by the following wash cycle. I have some TD/WK repair manuals, I'll dig them out tonight...
I suspect that the steam cycle on these machines doesn't get much hotter than the sanitary cycle on other machines so as not to hurt the dishes and plastic items. If that is the case, wouldn't this be more like a sauna or steam room for dishes rather than an actual concentrated blast of steam that scrubs them clean? My impression always was that the steam cycle was more of a hot "soak" keeping the dishes moist and warm helping to soak & loosen the soil which is carried away by the following wash cycle. I have some TD/WK repair manuals, I'll dig them out tonight...
deeptub
Member
Steam Bath
When the machine steams (during the main wash on Full Steam, the prewash and the main wash on Heavy Steam, and during the prewash, main wash, and final rinse on Sani Steam) the pump stops and the heating element (which they call the Steam Generator) turns on. The element is mounted rather high in the bottom of the tub (so that it is only partially submerged in the water) and is encased with an aluminum heat exchanger. The tub fills with steam (a LOT of steam--you can see it puff out the fill flume) and the machine continues this way until a thermostat mounted to the inner door panel trips. (I'm not sure what the actual temps are for the wash and sani t-stats.) It's effective, but it does make for lonnnngg cycle times.
I'm disappointed to hear about the plated steel tank. Mine has some rust spots (and the seams are rusty looking as well) and I had chalked it up to the little surface rusting that even a good sink sometimes gets if not cared for properly. So it's apparently something more sinister than that, which sort of makes me rethink this whole operation. We're about to start a kitchen renovation and I thought this handsome machine might get a place in it, but now I'm not so sure. Well, we'll see.
Kenmore1978: Those are good ideas for dealing with the upper rack, but I've tried tilting my cookie sheets every which way and they hit the upper washarm no matter what. I guess the answer would be to hand wash them, but so far I've tended to be of the rather severe mindset of, "If it can't go in the dishwasher, it can't come in my house."
T.
When the machine steams (during the main wash on Full Steam, the prewash and the main wash on Heavy Steam, and during the prewash, main wash, and final rinse on Sani Steam) the pump stops and the heating element (which they call the Steam Generator) turns on. The element is mounted rather high in the bottom of the tub (so that it is only partially submerged in the water) and is encased with an aluminum heat exchanger. The tub fills with steam (a LOT of steam--you can see it puff out the fill flume) and the machine continues this way until a thermostat mounted to the inner door panel trips. (I'm not sure what the actual temps are for the wash and sani t-stats.) It's effective, but it does make for lonnnngg cycle times.
I'm disappointed to hear about the plated steel tank. Mine has some rust spots (and the seams are rusty looking as well) and I had chalked it up to the little surface rusting that even a good sink sometimes gets if not cared for properly. So it's apparently something more sinister than that, which sort of makes me rethink this whole operation. We're about to start a kitchen renovation and I thought this handsome machine might get a place in it, but now I'm not so sure. Well, we'll see.
Kenmore1978: Those are good ideas for dealing with the upper rack, but I've tried tilting my cookie sheets every which way and they hit the upper washarm no matter what. I guess the answer would be to hand wash them, but so far I've tended to be of the rather severe mindset of, "If it can't go in the dishwasher, it can't come in my house."
T.
Tom, my mom used to put a cookie sheet flat on top of the glasses and stuff in the top rack. She'd get mad when I'd managed to not prerinse the load and all the dirt would end up on the top of the cookie shee.
I gingerly would put a sheet on the far side of each side of the bottom rack. I'd put these in last. Just as I was putting the bottom rack in for the last time, I'd tild them so that they'd get past the upper rack rails and then push them back once the top rack was in. I never had a prob with blocking the upper spray arm.
I also did this with a 12 to 14" Lennox China platter. Bob
I gingerly would put a sheet on the far side of each side of the bottom rack. I'd put these in last. Just as I was putting the bottom rack in for the last time, I'd tild them so that they'd get past the upper rack rails and then push them back once the top rack was in. I never had a prob with blocking the upper spray arm.
I also did this with a 12 to 14" Lennox China platter. Bob
deeptub
Member
I guess at some point I should have mentioned that my cookie sheets are actually half sheet bakers pans and are 13x18" with a 1" rim. They really won't fit in the bottom rack--it's the rim that's the culprit. If they were rimless, I think they'd be okay. And in order to lean it inward enough to clear the upper wash arm, I'd have to snip tines out of the lower rack. I have been known to put one flat above things in the upper rack, but usually I have two dirty pans, so that only solves half the problem.
My master plan for the kitchen redo was to use my KDS-18 as the "everyday" machine (which it already is) and as the "pots and pans" machine when I have a dinner party. I'd planned to use my KDS-17A as the "dishes" machine when the other is full of pots. This worked out well in my head, as the KDS-18 can be loaded any-which-way and does an especially good job on pots and pans, and the KDS-17A presents no loading challenges so long as the load is all dishes/glassware. I thought the Thermador could take the place of one of those machines, to mix things up a bit, but since it doesn't accomodate pots and pans as well as the KDS-18 and, with its top rack flatness, doesn't accomodate dishes and glassware as well as the KDS-17A, it really isn't a suitable replacement for either.
I think probably the best place for this Thermador would be at some future vacation cottage (dare I dream) where there wouldn't be massive cook/eat-a-thons going on all the time. Hmm. We'll see.
T.
My master plan for the kitchen redo was to use my KDS-18 as the "everyday" machine (which it already is) and as the "pots and pans" machine when I have a dinner party. I'd planned to use my KDS-17A as the "dishes" machine when the other is full of pots. This worked out well in my head, as the KDS-18 can be loaded any-which-way and does an especially good job on pots and pans, and the KDS-17A presents no loading challenges so long as the load is all dishes/glassware. I thought the Thermador could take the place of one of those machines, to mix things up a bit, but since it doesn't accomodate pots and pans as well as the KDS-18 and, with its top rack flatness, doesn't accomodate dishes and glassware as well as the KDS-17A, it really isn't a suitable replacement for either.
I think probably the best place for this Thermador would be at some future vacation cottage (dare I dream) where there wouldn't be massive cook/eat-a-thons going on all the time. Hmm. We'll see.
T.
mrcleanjeans
New member
repair scare
The only reason the repair record didn't sound too great is the fact that there is an exposed pump,not guarded by a filter or at least a small screen, thus carelessness could cause a jam,etc.If you don't let toothpicks, large chunks or the like get in there, the machine should last for years with virtually no probs.Incidently,deeptub,what do you think of the rather short middle wash arm of the KDS-18 versus the wider one on the KD-19 series?I am a KA fan, just not a fan of some of their quirks.Well, ALL machines have some design quirk I guess.
The only reason the repair record didn't sound too great is the fact that there is an exposed pump,not guarded by a filter or at least a small screen, thus carelessness could cause a jam,etc.If you don't let toothpicks, large chunks or the like get in there, the machine should last for years with virtually no probs.Incidently,deeptub,what do you think of the rather short middle wash arm of the KDS-18 versus the wider one on the KD-19 series?I am a KA fan, just not a fan of some of their quirks.Well, ALL machines have some design quirk I guess.
deeptub
Member
I put a newer top rack in my KDS-18, so it now has the full-size upper wash arm. As far as the smaller one goes...WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!? It didn't even have jets in the ends--there wasn't even an ATTEMPT to reach the corners or back of the upper rack.
I do like that it has the "constant rinse" sprayer in the top of the tank. I'm not sure on what series they eliminated that, but my parents' KDS-21 doesn't have it, and sometimes the tops of things in the upper rack are gritty, especially if the rack is loaded tightly.
T.
I do like that it has the "constant rinse" sprayer in the top of the tank. I'm not sure on what series they eliminated that, but my parents' KDS-21 doesn't have it, and sometimes the tops of things in the upper rack are gritty, especially if the rack is loaded tightly.
T.
I SHOULDA KNOWN
Yep...and there it is; I knew when I asked the question about the possible comeback of steam cleaning that deeptub's observation that "...the Thermador seems to dawdle along for a good part of the evening" was part of the answer. That, along with Gansky's correct guess that there is no concentrated blast, just ambient, indirect vapor from a partially submerged heating element doesnt seem to make it a good choice for modern machines, even with the effective cleaning results. You know, the amount of water needed to get close enough to the heating element is gonna blow your Energy Star rating for sure.
So, I am guessing that when the thermostat trips, the pump comes back to life and sprays the steamed dishes before draining?
Yep...and there it is; I knew when I asked the question about the possible comeback of steam cleaning that deeptub's observation that "...the Thermador seems to dawdle along for a good part of the evening" was part of the answer. That, along with Gansky's correct guess that there is no concentrated blast, just ambient, indirect vapor from a partially submerged heating element doesnt seem to make it a good choice for modern machines, even with the effective cleaning results. You know, the amount of water needed to get close enough to the heating element is gonna blow your Energy Star rating for sure.
So, I am guessing that when the thermostat trips, the pump comes back to life and sprays the steamed dishes before draining?
peterh770
Well-known member
Yes, Chris, there was a final, steamy rinse with all that hot water. (Welcome back to Applianceville again!)
We must have had a pre-Steam model. Our WK only steamed for the last rinse on the Full Cycle and Pots 'n Pans cycle. The only difference I knew of between these two cycles was that the heating element turned off after the steam rinse on the Pots 'n Pan cycle, so as not to re-bake back on any loosened food that the steam didn't completely remove. There was no heat exchanger on the element; it was just out there raw and exposed.
We must have had a pre-Steam model. Our WK only steamed for the last rinse on the Full Cycle and Pots 'n Pans cycle. The only difference I knew of between these two cycles was that the heating element turned off after the steam rinse on the Pots 'n Pan cycle, so as not to re-bake back on any loosened food that the steam didn't completely remove. There was no heat exchanger on the element; it was just out there raw and exposed.
deeptub
Member
Yes, during a wash period the machine fills, washes for awhile (perhaps 1 timer increment) to dissolve the detergent, steams, then washes for a good while before draining. Sorry I can't be more specific than "a good while"--I haven't timed it but it seems to be an adequate duration.
deeptub
Member
Waste King-Universal, Universal Chef
Since we're discussing Thermador and Waste King, does anyone know how long Universal Chef cooking appliances were sold. My parents 1969 house and my Aunt and Uncle's 1973 house both had Universal Chef built-ins which seemed to be slightly restyled Thermador units. The nameplates on them had the Waste-King Universal shield, the word UNIVERSAL in capital letters with each letter in a box and the word Chef in 60's script. The cooktops looked like Thermador cooktops, my aunt and uncle also had a char-glo indoor grill which looked exactly like a Thermador, and the ovens were identical to thermadors inside, but their control panels had an arched top and slightly arched chrome handles on black glass doors. The data plates had the Norris Industries logo on them.
I have never seen any other Universal Chef built-ins, either in person or on ebay, etc.
T.
Since we're discussing Thermador and Waste King, does anyone know how long Universal Chef cooking appliances were sold. My parents 1969 house and my Aunt and Uncle's 1973 house both had Universal Chef built-ins which seemed to be slightly restyled Thermador units. The nameplates on them had the Waste-King Universal shield, the word UNIVERSAL in capital letters with each letter in a box and the word Chef in 60's script. The cooktops looked like Thermador cooktops, my aunt and uncle also had a char-glo indoor grill which looked exactly like a Thermador, and the ovens were identical to thermadors inside, but their control panels had an arched top and slightly arched chrome handles on black glass doors. The data plates had the Norris Industries logo on them.
I have never seen any other Universal Chef built-ins, either in person or on ebay, etc.
T.
mrcleanjeans
New member
stainless steel scenario
Incidentaly,some comparison literature from KA back in the mid-70s admitted that Waste King/Thermador had stainless steel tubs but claimed that the different tub areas had different grades, thus claiming there would be rust.
Incidentaly,some comparison literature from KA back in the mid-70s admitted that Waste King/Thermador had stainless steel tubs but claimed that the different tub areas had different grades, thus claiming there would be rust.
Peter, our 1968 WK did have the sani-heat (as it was called) on the final/3rd rinse. ON ours it heated for about 6 or 8 minutes and then the timer paused if the temp hadn't been reached. For the cookware cycle, that last rinse had the longest spray period of the whole cycle, that enitre 9 minutes or so. It did not pause to heat the water before spraying. And yes, the dry cycle didn't turn on the heater on Cookware for the same reasoning as you stated. Our 1959 WK, the pots/pans cycle did prewash, wash, and first rinse. Then it shut off--the manual specifically stated lefton moist soil would be easy to remove. Incidentally, Gaffers & Satler dishwashers did a similar routine for pots & pans cycle, a wash & two rinses and then shut off.
kenmore1978
Well-known member
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baker sheets in Thermador
will they fit in the top rack face down?
will they fit in the top rack face down?
mrcleanjeans
New member
thru thick'n'thin,is THERMADOR in?
what's the latest scoop on this great machine,and who else has one or wants one?
what's the latest scoop on this great machine,and who else has one or wants one?
veg-o-matic
Well-known member
Ain't got one, but sure would like one!
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