Thermador Steam Machine
- Thread starter deeptub
- Start date
Help Support :
deeptub
Member
I've used the machine a few times now. It does a very good job of cleaning and is fairly quiet (the tub has some sound deadening material on it as well as a thin fiberglas blanket). The steam cycles aren't as dramatic as I would have expected. The element is not a dual wattage like the sump heater in a Hobart KitchenAid Superba. So it doesn't make the "water boiling" noises like those machines on SaniCycle. The thermador makes a sizzling noise now and then, but other kitchen noises (like a refrigerator) tend to drown it out. Open the door, though, and there's no question that it's generating steam. My only gripe is with loading. I know many people have said that there are no insurmountable obstacles to loading these machines, but there are some things that just won't fit. Half-sheet baking pans will not fit in the lower rack. If they had put the rack tracks near the top of the upper rack rather than the very bottom, the tops of the baking sheets could slide between the gap between the upper rack and the tub wall (like on KitchenAid) but they didn't. A 12" skillet will also not fit in the lower rack. The upper rack has two "fences" that can be moved around and a removable dish rack. These make the upper rack fairly flexible, but since the bottom of the rack is perfectly flat, it's difficult to get some items to tilt on an angle so their bottoms drain.
So, the machine is back in the garage, waiting for its door hinges. Once they come, I will install it in place of the KA for awhile and see what I learn, but I feel like I might be too set in my KA ways for this machine.
T.
So, the machine is back in the garage, waiting for its door hinges. Once they come, I will install it in place of the KA for awhile and see what I learn, but I feel like I might be too set in my KA ways for this machine.
T.
mrcleanjeans
New member
Dishwashing Delites
Deeptub,it's true that this machine has it's quirks, just as KAs have theirs.Some loading restrictions are on the Thermador,however it DOES have some advantages over the KA. While NOBODY has EVER topped a Hobart KA in durability and construction,the Thermadors DO clean better, even without a filter or soft food disposer, due to super high-powered STRAIGHT-THRU water action,SS tub that slides off particles at drain time so as not to stick to the walls and redeposit, and overall design.They also,overall hold more dishes,and the curled pins and thicker racks protect dishes better.Also, SS beats porcelain because it's unchippable,though KA's Tridura 2 coat porcelain with baked on overglaze is the best of the porcelains.
Deeptub,it's true that this machine has it's quirks, just as KAs have theirs.Some loading restrictions are on the Thermador,however it DOES have some advantages over the KA. While NOBODY has EVER topped a Hobart KA in durability and construction,the Thermadors DO clean better, even without a filter or soft food disposer, due to super high-powered STRAIGHT-THRU water action,SS tub that slides off particles at drain time so as not to stick to the walls and redeposit, and overall design.They also,overall hold more dishes,and the curled pins and thicker racks protect dishes better.Also, SS beats porcelain because it's unchippable,though KA's Tridura 2 coat porcelain with baked on overglaze is the best of the porcelains.
peterh770
Well-known member
Let's not forget that the WK/Thermador uses quite a bit of water. The one we had growing up went through 6 water changes on the Full Cycle.
mrcleanjeans
New member
4-way HYDRO SLURP
true,but Hobart KAs did also.In fact,as an example, the KA model KDS-17A used about 15 GALS.full cycle and a whopping 19.2 GALS. on soak cycle,the WK/Thermadors from the 60s-80s used 12 GALS. full cycle, many fuzzie-logic machines today tilt that high on really scuzzy loads,at least none of these machines use the typical 42 GALS.OF water that an average TL clothes washer uses, tho' some of that is cold.
true,but Hobart KAs did also.In fact,as an example, the KA model KDS-17A used about 15 GALS.full cycle and a whopping 19.2 GALS. on soak cycle,the WK/Thermadors from the 60s-80s used 12 GALS. full cycle, many fuzzie-logic machines today tilt that high on really scuzzy loads,at least none of these machines use the typical 42 GALS.OF water that an average TL clothes washer uses, tho' some of that is cold.
deeptub
Member
Yes, all of my dishwashers are guzzlers. I'm amazed at how much water my KDS-18 and especially my KDS-17A can use in such a short period of time. Practically as soon as the water valve closes, the drain valve opens. Ah well, dilution is the solution. My parents' Superba 21 is fairly stingy with water (as far as 17 year old American dishwashers go...) at 8.5 gallons on Normal. Only 4 fills and does an excellent job. I do like how speedy the old KA's are. I haven't timed it, but the Thermador seems to dawdle along for a good part of the evening.
T.
T.
Actually, the Waste King/Thermador tanks are not stainless steel. They are a plated sheet metal with several seams in them that tend to leak water over time and start the rusting process which if not caught and corrected, will mean certain death for the machine. The one I found already had some rust on the seam at the back of the tank and around the opening of the fill flume.
Peter, and 3 of those 6 water changes were the final 3 rinses!!!
mrcleanjeans
New member
metal make believe
wow, they claimed that it was stainless steel,even on the control panel
wow, they claimed that it was stainless steel,even on the control panel
SS??
I know! I was shocked when John Lefever told me this only a few weeks ago. I suppose that since many of the components are stainless steel (of which there are varying grades and types) they could get away with it. He said it was a plated steel and obviously it won't stain so...
The repair record didn't sound too great either which all but shattered my hopes for a resurrection of the one I found. I always thought they were sexy looking dishwashers.
I know! I was shocked when John Lefever told me this only a few weeks ago. I suppose that since many of the components are stainless steel (of which there are varying grades and types) they could get away with it. He said it was a plated steel and obviously it won't stain so...
The repair record didn't sound too great either which all but shattered my hopes for a resurrection of the one I found. I always thought they were sexy looking dishwashers.
So, here comes the DUH question (pity me my ignorance): if steam cleaning is superior (Superb?), why has no other manufacturer stolen this for their own use? I recently borrowed my boss' Scunci steamer and it really kicks cleaning things like a barbecue grill up some notches.
kenmore1978
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2004
- Messages
- 2,119
Thermador (and other DW) loading techniques
I often improvise loading things, in a situation like the upper rack being perfectly flat, one simply props up an item with something like a coffee cup or other small bowl to give the large item a little tilt. Another trick is to put a small light plastic item under a heavy item. The smal litem will then not get knocked over, but stil won't interfere with the large item over it getting clean. Other tricks are to put large pan lids on top of light plastic items, manuvering the handles of pots or pans and leaning bowls over so that they trap plastic items. I've taken cookie sheets laid them down in the bottom rack so that they lean over (if machine has center tower) or completely flat (if no center tower) with either no dishes under it, or small plates/saucers that allow the water to reach the cookie sheet. I often do this with rally dirty pots, pans, and skillets, so the get the full force of the bottom spray arm.
Just takes a little imagination.
I often improvise loading things, in a situation like the upper rack being perfectly flat, one simply props up an item with something like a coffee cup or other small bowl to give the large item a little tilt. Another trick is to put a small light plastic item under a heavy item. The smal litem will then not get knocked over, but stil won't interfere with the large item over it getting clean. Other tricks are to put large pan lids on top of light plastic items, manuvering the handles of pots or pans and leaning bowls over so that they trap plastic items. I've taken cookie sheets laid them down in the bottom rack so that they lean over (if machine has center tower) or completely flat (if no center tower) with either no dishes under it, or small plates/saucers that allow the water to reach the cookie sheet. I often do this with rally dirty pots, pans, and skillets, so the get the full force of the bottom spray arm.
Just takes a little imagination.
Dish Sauna?
I suspect that the steam cycle on these machines doesn't get much hotter than the sanitary cycle on other machines so as not to hurt the dishes and plastic items. If that is the case, wouldn't this be more like a sauna or steam room for dishes rather than an actual concentrated blast of steam that scrubs them clean? My impression always was that the steam cycle was more of a hot "soak" keeping the dishes moist and warm helping to soak & loosen the soil which is carried away by the following wash cycle. I have some TD/WK repair manuals, I'll dig them out tonight...
I suspect that the steam cycle on these machines doesn't get much hotter than the sanitary cycle on other machines so as not to hurt the dishes and plastic items. If that is the case, wouldn't this be more like a sauna or steam room for dishes rather than an actual concentrated blast of steam that scrubs them clean? My impression always was that the steam cycle was more of a hot "soak" keeping the dishes moist and warm helping to soak & loosen the soil which is carried away by the following wash cycle. I have some TD/WK repair manuals, I'll dig them out tonight...
deeptub
Member
Steam Bath
When the machine steams (during the main wash on Full Steam, the prewash and the main wash on Heavy Steam, and during the prewash, main wash, and final rinse on Sani Steam) the pump stops and the heating element (which they call the Steam Generator) turns on. The element is mounted rather high in the bottom of the tub (so that it is only partially submerged in the water) and is encased with an aluminum heat exchanger. The tub fills with steam (a LOT of steam--you can see it puff out the fill flume) and the machine continues this way until a thermostat mounted to the inner door panel trips. (I'm not sure what the actual temps are for the wash and sani t-stats.) It's effective, but it does make for lonnnngg cycle times.
I'm disappointed to hear about the plated steel tank. Mine has some rust spots (and the seams are rusty looking as well) and I had chalked it up to the little surface rusting that even a good sink sometimes gets if not cared for properly. So it's apparently something more sinister than that, which sort of makes me rethink this whole operation. We're about to start a kitchen renovation and I thought this handsome machine might get a place in it, but now I'm not so sure. Well, we'll see.
Kenmore1978: Those are good ideas for dealing with the upper rack, but I've tried tilting my cookie sheets every which way and they hit the upper washarm no matter what. I guess the answer would be to hand wash them, but so far I've tended to be of the rather severe mindset of, "If it can't go in the dishwasher, it can't come in my house."
T.
When the machine steams (during the main wash on Full Steam, the prewash and the main wash on Heavy Steam, and during the prewash, main wash, and final rinse on Sani Steam) the pump stops and the heating element (which they call the Steam Generator) turns on. The element is mounted rather high in the bottom of the tub (so that it is only partially submerged in the water) and is encased with an aluminum heat exchanger. The tub fills with steam (a LOT of steam--you can see it puff out the fill flume) and the machine continues this way until a thermostat mounted to the inner door panel trips. (I'm not sure what the actual temps are for the wash and sani t-stats.) It's effective, but it does make for lonnnngg cycle times.
I'm disappointed to hear about the plated steel tank. Mine has some rust spots (and the seams are rusty looking as well) and I had chalked it up to the little surface rusting that even a good sink sometimes gets if not cared for properly. So it's apparently something more sinister than that, which sort of makes me rethink this whole operation. We're about to start a kitchen renovation and I thought this handsome machine might get a place in it, but now I'm not so sure. Well, we'll see.
Kenmore1978: Those are good ideas for dealing with the upper rack, but I've tried tilting my cookie sheets every which way and they hit the upper washarm no matter what. I guess the answer would be to hand wash them, but so far I've tended to be of the rather severe mindset of, "If it can't go in the dishwasher, it can't come in my house."
T.
Tom, my mom used to put a cookie sheet flat on top of the glasses and stuff in the top rack. She'd get mad when I'd managed to not prerinse the load and all the dirt would end up on the top of the cookie shee.
I gingerly would put a sheet on the far side of each side of the bottom rack. I'd put these in last. Just as I was putting the bottom rack in for the last time, I'd tild them so that they'd get past the upper rack rails and then push them back once the top rack was in. I never had a prob with blocking the upper spray arm.
I also did this with a 12 to 14" Lennox China platter. Bob
I gingerly would put a sheet on the far side of each side of the bottom rack. I'd put these in last. Just as I was putting the bottom rack in for the last time, I'd tild them so that they'd get past the upper rack rails and then push them back once the top rack was in. I never had a prob with blocking the upper spray arm.
I also did this with a 12 to 14" Lennox China platter. Bob
deeptub
Member
I guess at some point I should have mentioned that my cookie sheets are actually half sheet bakers pans and are 13x18" with a 1" rim. They really won't fit in the bottom rack--it's the rim that's the culprit. If they were rimless, I think they'd be okay. And in order to lean it inward enough to clear the upper wash arm, I'd have to snip tines out of the lower rack. I have been known to put one flat above things in the upper rack, but usually I have two dirty pans, so that only solves half the problem.
My master plan for the kitchen redo was to use my KDS-18 as the "everyday" machine (which it already is) and as the "pots and pans" machine when I have a dinner party. I'd planned to use my KDS-17A as the "dishes" machine when the other is full of pots. This worked out well in my head, as the KDS-18 can be loaded any-which-way and does an especially good job on pots and pans, and the KDS-17A presents no loading challenges so long as the load is all dishes/glassware. I thought the Thermador could take the place of one of those machines, to mix things up a bit, but since it doesn't accomodate pots and pans as well as the KDS-18 and, with its top rack flatness, doesn't accomodate dishes and glassware as well as the KDS-17A, it really isn't a suitable replacement for either.
I think probably the best place for this Thermador would be at some future vacation cottage (dare I dream) where there wouldn't be massive cook/eat-a-thons going on all the time. Hmm. We'll see.
T.
My master plan for the kitchen redo was to use my KDS-18 as the "everyday" machine (which it already is) and as the "pots and pans" machine when I have a dinner party. I'd planned to use my KDS-17A as the "dishes" machine when the other is full of pots. This worked out well in my head, as the KDS-18 can be loaded any-which-way and does an especially good job on pots and pans, and the KDS-17A presents no loading challenges so long as the load is all dishes/glassware. I thought the Thermador could take the place of one of those machines, to mix things up a bit, but since it doesn't accomodate pots and pans as well as the KDS-18 and, with its top rack flatness, doesn't accomodate dishes and glassware as well as the KDS-17A, it really isn't a suitable replacement for either.
I think probably the best place for this Thermador would be at some future vacation cottage (dare I dream) where there wouldn't be massive cook/eat-a-thons going on all the time. Hmm. We'll see.
T.
mrcleanjeans
New member
repair scare
The only reason the repair record didn't sound too great is the fact that there is an exposed pump,not guarded by a filter or at least a small screen, thus carelessness could cause a jam,etc.If you don't let toothpicks, large chunks or the like get in there, the machine should last for years with virtually no probs.Incidently,deeptub,what do you think of the rather short middle wash arm of the KDS-18 versus the wider one on the KD-19 series?I am a KA fan, just not a fan of some of their quirks.Well, ALL machines have some design quirk I guess.
The only reason the repair record didn't sound too great is the fact that there is an exposed pump,not guarded by a filter or at least a small screen, thus carelessness could cause a jam,etc.If you don't let toothpicks, large chunks or the like get in there, the machine should last for years with virtually no probs.Incidently,deeptub,what do you think of the rather short middle wash arm of the KDS-18 versus the wider one on the KD-19 series?I am a KA fan, just not a fan of some of their quirks.Well, ALL machines have some design quirk I guess.
deeptub
Member
I put a newer top rack in my KDS-18, so it now has the full-size upper wash arm. As far as the smaller one goes...WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!? It didn't even have jets in the ends--there wasn't even an ATTEMPT to reach the corners or back of the upper rack.
I do like that it has the "constant rinse" sprayer in the top of the tank. I'm not sure on what series they eliminated that, but my parents' KDS-21 doesn't have it, and sometimes the tops of things in the upper rack are gritty, especially if the rack is loaded tightly.
T.
I do like that it has the "constant rinse" sprayer in the top of the tank. I'm not sure on what series they eliminated that, but my parents' KDS-21 doesn't have it, and sometimes the tops of things in the upper rack are gritty, especially if the rack is loaded tightly.
T.
I SHOULDA KNOWN
Yep...and there it is; I knew when I asked the question about the possible comeback of steam cleaning that deeptub's observation that "...the Thermador seems to dawdle along for a good part of the evening" was part of the answer. That, along with Gansky's correct guess that there is no concentrated blast, just ambient, indirect vapor from a partially submerged heating element doesnt seem to make it a good choice for modern machines, even with the effective cleaning results. You know, the amount of water needed to get close enough to the heating element is gonna blow your Energy Star rating for sure.
So, I am guessing that when the thermostat trips, the pump comes back to life and sprays the steamed dishes before draining?
Yep...and there it is; I knew when I asked the question about the possible comeback of steam cleaning that deeptub's observation that "...the Thermador seems to dawdle along for a good part of the evening" was part of the answer. That, along with Gansky's correct guess that there is no concentrated blast, just ambient, indirect vapor from a partially submerged heating element doesnt seem to make it a good choice for modern machines, even with the effective cleaning results. You know, the amount of water needed to get close enough to the heating element is gonna blow your Energy Star rating for sure.
So, I am guessing that when the thermostat trips, the pump comes back to life and sprays the steamed dishes before draining?
peterh770
Well-known member
Yes, Chris, there was a final, steamy rinse with all that hot water. (Welcome back to Applianceville again!)
We must have had a pre-Steam model. Our WK only steamed for the last rinse on the Full Cycle and Pots 'n Pans cycle. The only difference I knew of between these two cycles was that the heating element turned off after the steam rinse on the Pots 'n Pan cycle, so as not to re-bake back on any loosened food that the steam didn't completely remove. There was no heat exchanger on the element; it was just out there raw and exposed.
We must have had a pre-Steam model. Our WK only steamed for the last rinse on the Full Cycle and Pots 'n Pans cycle. The only difference I knew of between these two cycles was that the heating element turned off after the steam rinse on the Pots 'n Pan cycle, so as not to re-bake back on any loosened food that the steam didn't completely remove. There was no heat exchanger on the element; it was just out there raw and exposed.
