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aquacycle

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Ok, so I'm very sorry to bring up this same argument again. But having spent a few hours on Youtube looking at US toploader machines, I have to ask what the appeal in them is. I mean, I understand they hold a lot and are quick. But they don't do anything. You clothes just bob around in (huge amounts) of water and detergent for a bit, then get bobbed around in cold water and then spun. There is no real washing action. It's like washing your dishes by just leaving them stood in a sink full of water for an hour, and then standing them to dry. I've attached a YouTube video - apologies if this belongs to someone on the forum - that I think demonstrates my point. I know that toploaders are supposed to agitate, but there doesn't seem to be much agitating going on to be honest. And with the amount of water and detergent they use, they can't be cheap to run. Some other opinions would be most welcome on this, because so far, I am really not feeling the toploader love.

 
Some TL washers have wash actions better than others. But they all work as to pull clothes from the top to the bottom and back up (called rollover). I grew up with a Kenmore cruel action agitator washer that lasted for years and got our DIRTY clothes VERY clean. Some say this particular washer destroys clothes but I don't ever remember this happening in our case. Our particular TL washer didn't spin drain (unfortunately) .....but it was still a great washer and lasted from about 24 years

 
Hi Mark,

thanks for the input :) Much appreciated. I can certainly see the difference between the 2 here and can imagine your Kenmore having better results. But still, all I see are clothes swimming around in water, and not much agitation going on. This is agitation.

 
In most US topload washers, the real "agitation" occurs at the bottom of the tub where the agitator's base and largest fins are. The auger at the top just helps to move the clothes from the top back down to the agitator's base where the scrubbing occurs. It's hard to see the scrubbing action without the water level being set to low.
 
and this is a different kind of agitation. If you compare this with the the first video I posted and with the one you sent me, surely anyone can see which one would have the better wash results?

 
Pulsator...

that may be the case. But I haven't seen any evidence yet of the clothes rotating vertically through the water as well as around the drum to pull them down to the bottom of the tub. In every video I've seen, they just seem to go round and round in the water. We had a Maytag TL and matching dryer at a previous job. It never handled washing towels, slide sacks (don't ask)and seat covers particularly well and a lot of them ended up very stained because the washing machine was cleaning them properly. I thought this just might have something to do with that model being, well, a bit shit - I suppose every brand has had good and bad models - but every other TL I've seen just does the same thing that did. Needless to say, the Miele Little Giant that replaced it did a much better job. I'm sorry if it seems I'm being cynical, but I still don't see the appeal.
 
I also grew up....

....with a top load washer and we certainly had clean clothes - I inherited my clean clothes mantra from my mother

They are, or at least were, very reliable, though consumer magazine feedback has now narrowed this to within a couple of percentage points. i.e. There's nothing in it now.

From a repairers point of view, they also tend to be easy to work on with generally very good access, much of it from the front, which is something that most front loaders don't offer with most being serviced from the rear (Miele excepted).

From a 'clean' point of view, they can certainly do that but it is interesting to note the washing practices of many/most Top load users to that of many/most front load users. Some of this is also North America V's European washing practices.

In many cases, Top load users soak, use various additives AND cholorine bleach to ensure thorough removal of soil....et voila

The above, minus the bleach, was certainly my mothers routine and you can add in there 'hard to shift stains hit with a hand scrub with Sunlight soap' too.

In most cases, Front load users might 'spray' collar and/or cuff but then just bung it in their machine with the appropriate powder....et voila.

Actual wash time is definately faster in a Top loader (anything up to 75% faster), but then there may be the additional time where washing is soaking or effectively being 'prepped' to wash. But even the water concious machines of today still use substantially more to achieve the same results as a European Front loader.

...and there are other factors to consider too...

- Culturally, people in North America tend to do multiple washes sequentially AND run them through a tumble dryer.

- Most Europeans tend to spread washing over a week or wash at night to take advantage of lower electricity rates etc. and consider also that many hang their washing out or up inside on airers and you realise that there is only so much space which limits how much washing you can do in one hit - longer cycle times don't matter when you can only dry so much at a time.

There are many other factors I'm sure, but ultimately, it is horses for courses.

What I WOULD like to know is the actual 'useable' capacity of the machines that people use in a format that is understandable by the rest of the world. The 'cu ft' measurement system is not a good indication of capacity compared to pounds or Kilos. So, my North American friends, how about doing an experiment or 2 for 'the rest of the world' and, based on YOUR usage of YOUR machines, tell us how much you actually wash in them in pounds...

Here's what I suggest....

- Fill machine as high as you would do to do a FULL Load with highest water level...small and larger items.
- Remove items to a basket and weigh using the bathroom scales and yourself...

- Tell us the difference between you and you + clothes...

It would be good if several people had the same machines or same make/capacity but different model- we could get an average then.

It would then be useful if those of US that use EUROPEAN designed machines i.e. 60cm/24" cabinet width front loaders, did similar so we could compare our rated capacity to that which we actually use....
 
 
AquaCycle, if the clothes aren't rotating vertically through the wash basket .. what do you suppose is happening to the various pieces of clothing that get pulled down at the top around the agitator barrel, then come back up around the outside perimeter of the wash basket? The main wash action takes place at the agitator's base where the fins are oscillating back and forth.

The base of the agitator in the first video you linked is oscillating at 180 strokes per minute. The upper spiral/auger section is linked to the base by a cam that rotates it only when the base turns clockwise.

 
ronhic...

I wasn't meaning to imply that a toploader does not clean anything, just that maybe that other methods i.e frontloaders or twin tubs do a more efficient job? My point was not necessarily about the capacity of the machine. I did mention in my first post that I can see the appeal regarding the large amounts of washing that can be done in one go. It was more to do with the performance of the machine. Not to say it is not washing the clothes at all, but just how efficiently it's doing it. It seems to use so much water and so much detergent (not an economical, or cheap way of going about your laundry) and still not really doing the best possible job. Surely, everyone in the world wants the same thing from an appliance - efficiency, reliability, ease of use, reasonable price. And really, with a TL machine, I think that people are only getting 3/4 of the deal. Maybe only half the deal if they get an unreliable brand.
 
The wash performance test used to give machine performance ratings are tested on the machines 60deg cotton wash. The US T/L's sold here do not have heaters so a 60deg wash is unlikely to be performed in the test. Also are they using a detergent designed for that type of machine or using the correct ammount of euro detergent for the quantity of water the T/L uses? These could all factor in the Maytag getting rated "G" for washing.
 
Pack'er in Buddy

It has been my observation that many people used to a front loading machine pack too many clothes into top loaders. In a top loader you drop the clothes in and never pack them down. A front loader can hold more clothing in a smaller volume of space and then boil and pummel the clothing clean without it's need to freely circulate. I am now two months into learning how to use a front loading machine and feel like my 40 year Maytag did a noticably better job with the wash than either the Speed Queen or Maytag front loader I am using.

mixfinder++1-2-2010-20-44-26.jpg
 
And Kelly, I"m just the opposit. I feel like my Fridgemore does a far better job of cleaning than any toploader I've ever owned or used and far more gentle on fibers than a top loader. For the past 3 years I've had the machine, I pretty much don't worry about stains or having to tkae time (waste time) searching each suspected article for stains. I simply add some Biz with the detergent and off I go. Doing whites isn't as laborous as it once was. Cold prewash with Biz and hot wash with detergent and Oxiclean. My clothes are lasting longer and my towels aren't nearly as frayed.
 
Top Loader here

Top loader for life (so far...) be a very hard sell to get me to switch to front loader. Might get one to play with, but I can't see waiting an hour on more for a load. 28 minutes and I have a sparkling clean load.

Personally I think it's pathetic to use a tea cup full of water to wash a large load. After all the dirt is held in suspension in the water and soap. Less water and less soap, less suspended dirt in my mind. I'd have a hard time feeling my cloths are truly clean in one of the low water use front loaders.
 
I've found I've got better results from top loaders than front. Especially with my whites. I do use a front loader from time to time for ultra bulky things like heavy coats or large comforters. Basically things that aren't very soiled. I just washed 2 of my brothers very filthy heavy denim jackets in a commercial Maytag top loader. He uses them for deer hunting. I was VERY happy with the results. Also, on those Maytag's, they actually had 2 rinse cycles! I had used these machines before but never noticed. When it started what I thought was the final spin, there was still 10 minutes left on the count down. And I thought that was a bit long, til it stopped spinning and started filling again. So I agree with the other top loader fans on here. I'm not knocking the front loaders, but I'll always own a top loader. Agitators are just so much fun to watch!
 
Having both a modern front loader (Frigidaire) and a vintage Maytag, I think the Maytag cleans better, and is much faster. Clothes that are washed in the Maytag get an extra spin in the Frigidaire. The Maytag as great rollover even on large loads. I can stop it and let clothes soak for as long as I want them too. And it is FUN to watch. I use the Frigidaire for heavy blankets, and jeans. Everything else is washed in the Maytag
 
Fun versus performance

I'd have to say for sheer fun and pleasure, my vote goes to the toploader every time despite the fact they're pretty uncommon over here. Even though I grew up with front loaders like most other Brits and Europeans, there's something very satisfying about seeing the whole load immersed and being sloshed back and forth in sudsy water. And that sound too...just makes you think something is really going on in there...grrrrrr...thrust and grind LOL!

When it comes to being rational though, the front loader wins out. They do, generally speaking, clean better using less water, energy and detergent. For most of us over here, a toploader would cost 2-3 times as much to run. The last vertical agitator machine to be sold here was by Hotpoint (model 9605) and a 60 degree cotton wash used 3.84kwh electricity and 170 l water for a 4.5 kg load. Compare that to 1.3kwh and 75 l for the front loader equivalent even then (1997) and you can see it just doesn't make sense. Even cleaning in the top loader was rated G (lowest) though we have no idea if they cranked up the detergent dosage which you'd need to do for best results. I think for tub type toploaders, it's just a heart over head justification these days, sadly.

Anyway - here's a link to a video of my favourite ever machine: the Hotpoint toploader. It's agitating away on a cold Saturday in November 2008. It belongs to a couple of well-known collectors here and I can't tell you the joy I felt being present whilst filming was in progress! It's actually on the final rinse - I flip the rinse hold switch and away we go. The suds are due to a certain man's liberal dosing of conditioner (six capfuls); personally I don't think you need to up the dose of conditioner despite the large volume of water but I guess we all have our vices and he's a very nice chap nonetheless : ).

Without further ado, courtesy of P&R Productions, Crewe...

 
If and when my Frigidaire kicks the bucket, I think it will probably be my last front loader, unless I can find a vintage front loader that actually uses some water.
 

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