Ungrounded Outlets

[Chetlaham]

Inmetro sockets come in two ratings- 10 amp and 20 amp. The 10 amp has smaller holes that the 20 amp:

 

 

 

 

See 3/6 and 4/7 figures and notes: https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/IEC60906-1.html

 

 

My guess is the seller is trying to cover both plug sizes in one device. Such practicality would definitely get it listed on Amazon.

 

 

 

 

[Chetlaham]

My Second Favorite Plug

Is the version of the NEMA 1-15 without the holes and slightly beefier solid blades. Typically reserved for 220-240 volts and used in China, Thailand and other Asian countries.

 

 

 

 

 

Because Asian countries end up with Euro plug appliances from Europe and NEMA 1-15 imitations from China, outlets both grounding and non grounding are designed to take the Type A and C plug and can technically take others like the type F even though type F will be left without its earth connection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thailand takes it a step further and has their own plug type "O" plug which is a hybrid of the US NEMA 5-15 but the the round pins and spacing of the Euro plug.

 

 

 

 

Lots of fun to be had!

 

[davey7]

Since we're talking about European plugs

And sockets, outlets and receptacles, why not go whole hog and talk about wiring and panel boards (bane of my existence right now - insurance industry is forcing replacement of fuses with circuit breakers in a lot of multi-family buildings - that and plumbing fun).

So lets look at Europe, shall we, from a British perspective?

 

[Chetlaham]

Perfect Compliment to Plugs and Sockets

I could write several dissertations on various EU practices; and IEC vs NEC practices. Fascinating stuff that is truly a world all on to its own. 

 

You've got the whole earthing system debate - TN-C-S vs TN-S vs TT vs IT vs PME...

 

230/400Y vs 3 x 230 sans neutral vs split phase.

 

Protecting the neutral via 2 or 4 pole MCB vs straight to the neutral bar. 

 

Radial vs ring wiring

 

Conduit vs twin and earth

 

Switches vs relays

 

Sockets vs hard wiring appliances

 

ect

 

Lots of those differences are covered in your vids. Thank you for posting them. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bradfordwhite]

Obviously, the time will come when converting to a universal world standard will arrive. It will make things much easier all around. Just as there was once different standards here in the U.S. and in Britain and things were made universal per country.

I wonder what will be settled on.

I hope it's a new standard of lower voltage because many appliances now are made with power adapters to step down the power.

 

[novum]

It’s very unlikely tbh.

They are effectively two universal standards:

230V 50Hz - originating in European electrical systems

120V 60Hz - originating in the U.S.

There a dew odd outlier, notably Japan 100V 50Hz and 60Hz, but most of the world fits into option 1 or 2.

Plugs and sockets in 230V systems aren’t universally harmonised, but CEE 7 (the continental European ‘Schuko’ and French system) is probably the most widespread.

The Chinese type which is also basically compatible with Australia/NZ is probably the second most common type.

The U.K. type used here with 3 rectangular pins and a fused plug.

Probably the old U.K. round pin type used in India and then a raft of 2 pin designs that are semi compatible with CEE 7.

It’s unlikely they’ll ever be fully harmonised as the cost and inconvenience would outweigh any advantage at this point.

 

[mrboilwash]

"Thailand takes it a step further and has their own plug type "O" plug which is a hybrid of the US NEMA 5-15 but the the round pins and spacing of the Euro plug"

Apparently they`ve come a long way since I`ve been there 25 years ago. I remember those hybrid outlets but haven`t seen one with an earth connection.
As for plugs they seemed to have a strong preference for the American type.
No plug at all, just the wires inserted was a common sight too.
Have also seen a vacuum cleaner connected without a plug in a hotel in Italy but only once and I was still a child so it`s a long time ago.

On a side note I`ve always had a fascination for foreign plugs, outlets and light switches too. I must have been the only child in the world who noticed when an American movie had a scene in let`s say in a room in Paris and you still saw American light switches.

 

[adam-aussie-vac]

Reply 80

You haven’t heard about the joys of finding an Australian style socket in multiple different countries that somehow have the exact same pin spacing requirements and are compatible, in the photos below, these plugs all fit Australian standards, even though they’re made across a wide variety of countries and times, even the vintage Soviet ones, one of them is actually on my vintage 220v Soviet room heater, and yes I did get the flex replaced and everything looked at and bring up to Australian standards, the only thing that it’s missing is a tilt switch, that I’ll probably ask them to see if it’s possible to retrofit, then it will officially be Soviet built Australian standards, anyway I’m getting off tangent here and the last photo is of my vintage porcelain dual voltage socket

 

[novum]

Ireland has a slightly odd history on this. We are probably the only country in Europe to have moved away from ‘Schuko’ the 16 amp plug/socket system, with the sliding ground contacts that’s used in most of Europe.

When we began standardising things in the 1920s there was no real international consensus on anything. Meanwhile the U.K. had a bit of a messy system involving multiple different round pin plugs, both two and 3 pins, all of which were mutually incompatible, as well as various non-standard systems linked to specific manufacturers. There was also no harmonised voltage in the UK at that point, which regional differences between power companies / power boards.

Ireland’s power company therefore adopted 220V 50Hz and Schuko as it had emerged as a fairly cohesive standard being used in a lot of Northern Europe and was marketed by Siemens.

It remained the preferred standard, although various U.K. round pin plugs were also used particularly during and after WWII, but domestically manufactured Schuko was common.

After WWII the UK launched by the current BS1363 and rectangular pin, fused plugs and they were designed with safety features like mandatory shutters, no ambiguity about earthing or polarity and were flush to the wall, which is whereas Schuko required much deeper boxes or was not flush.

That system was also deliberately designed to not be backward compatible with any other known system, thus would force people to upgrade to a new standard and ‘round pin’ became synonymous with obsolete / old fashioned. It also meant that there was no issue with for example grounded plugs being connected without ground.

Those arguments also all applied in Ireland, so we adopted the U.K. system officially and it would go on to completely replace any previous standards, and did so very rapidly.

If we look at it from 2023, it seems daft to have adopted an oddball standard, that was out of line with Europe, but at that time people didn’t have mobile phone chargers, laptop, and you were fairly unlikely to take a vacuum cleaner or the electric kettle on your holidays to France…

The single market was also decades away, so it just didn’t feature in the decision making logic.

 

[daveamkrayoguy]

Judging from the way some of these foreign voltages outlets and whatever plugs look like, I should think or not be surprised in terms of what our US voltage is like, I suppose the US might change its entire system (soerta like going metric) to one of these designs, Canada and Mexico and other territories for that matter...

My own toys that were battery powered, if I wanted to make my own cords from string and plug-prongs made with toothpicks greatly resembled them, and my own cardboard outlets with two long vertical slots could have just had two holed dots anticipating this would be but possibly oncoming trend...

-- Dave

 

[novum]

There wouldn’t be much logic in anywhere with an established system changing to another system. It make some sense for completely outliers, like countries using absolutely unique outlets or voltages other than 120V 60Hz or 230V 50Hz

At the end of the day, an outlet as long as it’s fairly safely designed, is just a very simple 2 or 3 contact connector. They’re not rocket science!

The issue in Europe is one of trying to ensure a single market works. That’s why there’s been harmonisation and standardisation. It would be like if I donno, let’s say 4 of the 50 US states he’s their own plugs and sockets. You can see how that would screw up an otherwise single market for electrical appliances, requiring special versions for day Texas, Michigan, California and Hawaii.

 

[petek]

I remember visiting my relatives in the UK in 1967 and electric appliances didn't come with a plug on the end of the cord. You had to buy that separately to match your outlets and wire it on yourself.

 

[novum]

Shockingly, that only came into force in UK in 1994!

There was a slightly ridiculous notion that people needed the flexibility to fit different plugs, despite the plethora of different plugs and sockets in the U.K. having had been standardised by the 1970s.

In other EU countries it was extremely rare or illegal to supply products without plugs and probably would have been the case since the 1950s

In the Republic of Ireland it often was the case that items shipped with Europlugs / Schuko that didn’t fit the sockets and had to be cut off and replaced.

Our supply chains became more aligned with the U.K. after the EU single market came into force in 1993 but they’re back out of synch now again due to Brexit…

 

[Chetlaham]

Lower Voltage

120 volts is already to low, going lower would present more cons than pros. People forget that because we're clinging to an obsolete voltage we've got millions of transformers wasting energy throughout buildings and millions more on utility poles spending most of their time at less than 5% load.

 

416Y/240 would consolidate 600Y/347, 480Y/277, 208Y/120, 240Δ/120 and split phase 240/120 into a single system. 416 volts for heat strips, 3 phase motors, commercial cooking equipment, high bay lighting and roadway fixtures with 240 volts for all other equipment and homes.

 

Since doubling the voltage for the same current means you can go twice the distance for the same % voltage drop or 4 times the distance at double the voltage with half the current for the same % voltage drop not even factoring the advantage of 3 phase over split phase; a single pole mount or pad mounted transformer can serve many more customers while being in the desired voltage drop bandwidth. Serving more customers means greater loading diversity with a utility transformer being subjected to a relatively flat load curve vs one with sharp peaks and troughs as in the modern US distribution system. For example, as people wake up homes begin pulling more power that begins to sharply drop as people leave for work, as people arrive for work load picks up in offices. As people head out for lunch load drops somewhat in factories and offices as load picks up in restaurants serving the lunch rush hour. Load drops at these places and pickups at work. As people leave work, load drops off  at work but increases at homes as people make dinner, turn up the heat, ect. Defrost of food market refrigerators and freezers can take place at night. The combined 24 hour load of a community resembles a valley. Transformers are most efficient when driven continuously at around 80% load.  In stark contrast all the 10, 15, 25 and 50kva transformers serving homes that see about a few amps most hours of the day with 200-300% 90 minute overloads in the morning and evenings.

 

In Europe it is common for a single 3 phase transformer to serve an entire village or at least large chunks of it- many homes, restaurants, businesses, schools, institutions, government, pump houses, ect making for a very efficient distribution system.  

 

Lower voltages waste energy, take obscene amounts of resources, create unnecessary complexity, and are way less safe.

 

[Chetlaham]

Rocket science

Ah, but they are not far off! Consider all the safety mechanisms UK plugs and sockets have that others don't. 

Plugs are an art as much as they are a science. 

 

[me]

UK: When appliances came without plugs fitted.

There used to be a public safety information film regularly shown in the daytime and weekend ad breaks warning of the hazard of not fitting a plug:-



It used to annoy me when they used to supply appliances without a plug in the UK, that the flex would invariably come pre-stripped with either crimped or soldered ends for plug terminals, but would always have the outer sheath cut back far too much. If you wanted to fit the plug properly you'd have to cut and strip the wires to length loosing the crimps, although most people would just stuff the extra wire in the plug, usually resulting in the flex sheath pulling out of the cable grip.

 

[foraloysius]

I noticed there are some adapter plugs that go over a Euro or Schuko plug. No need to replace the plug then.

 

[novum]

Yeah, those are used from time to time, more so with the 2.5amp Europlug variety.

They're EXTREMELY bulky with the full grounded Schuko version.
Although I have actually seen Fisher and Paykel fridges fitted with them here!

See what I mean : https://www.powerconnections.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/2d.pdf

 

[48bencix]

Just wanted to add

I will put in a vote for the USA system. My home was built in 1946 and has mostly ungrounded outlets. Most of the items plugged in are ungrounded also, such as lamps in each room. Clock radio, stuff like that. There are grounded outlets in the laundry area, and kitchen. I added a couple of grounded outlets in two bedrooms to accommodate computers which had grounded outlets. The grounded outlets in the laundry and kitchen are used for higher draw appliances like microwave and the grounds are needed. I also have GFCI outlets, grounded in the two bathrooms. I do not intend to provide grounds to existing outlets which have no grounded appliances plugged in.

This home, like most in USA, has 240 volt service but not 3 phase. Local electrical charges $43 per month extra for 3 phase. So we already have the voltage to the home. I just seems excessive to have that higher voltage available to all rooms which mostly have just lights, although it would save copper. And I also like the simple plugs we have for the grounded or ungrounded appliances. Of course some appliances such as dryers and ranges have specialized plugs. Almost all outlet covers are the older style with the vertical lines. I sought out more of these to replace all outlet and switch cover plates. (Except GFCI) I found some ungrounded outlet replacements at thrift stores to replace some outlets that had lost the grip.

 

[petek]

Same here Martin. Why fix it if it ain't broke. Our house being from 1958 is pretty sparse for outlets compared to a new build and they all are, or were, for the most part ungrounded save for the 220's on the stove, dryer etc. but I've gone around and put GFIs in many of them where I needed a 3 prong outlet. Not missing out on anything that I can think of.