Ungrounded Outlets

[Chetlaham]

Not missing out

Well, if you've never experienced 2100-3000 watt grills, fryers, toaster ovens, hair dryers, microwaves, toasters, electric kettles, panini presses, space heaters, irons, vacuum cleaners, front load washers with heaters, insta hots, electric showers, ect I could understand the sentiment. 1500-1800 watts is simply not enough power to be thoroughly practical and has motivated a lot of the energy wasting practices in the US. 

 

I think you were referring to ungrounded outlets to which I agree in full but I just wanted to use the opportunity to encourage others to discover the joys of 240 volt living.  

 

 

[petek]

Just comparing many of those small appliances in the UK to N.A.. such as toasters, panini presses, microwaves,, they all output about the same wattage, some more, some less, sane as here. So there's no time savings. Perhaps for water heating in a washer etc but then most people don't boil wash their laundry and never will is the true reality of life. Unless I'm missing something?

 

[combo52]

Having less power available

Encourages energy conservation and conversely, having more power available, includes wasteful practices.

In the UK and other parts of Europe, there were crazy 3000 W vacuum cleaner sold that eventually had to be rained in with government regulation you don’t need 3000 W of power to run a vacuum cleaner.

The 3000 W tea kettles also caused power outages at times they use so much power again not necessary.

In the US when air conditioner manufactures made 240 V units they were usually much less efficient than the 120 V units because they had the power and there was no incentive to conserve with higher quality compressors and fan motors, etc. thankfully 240 V window air conditioners have all but disappeared because of efficiency gains you can easily get a 12 to 15,000 BTU air conditioner that plugs in an ordinary outlet now.

We now have the US available a full-size washer dryer combination that will run on a 15 amp 14 gauge circuit a machine large enough to do the laundry needs of any normal family and yes, it even has a water heater to boost water temperatures if needed.

I can foresee in the future to save copper that new homes may start having 10 amp circuits with 16 gauge wire for lighting circuits etc. since lighting uses so little power now in the average home.

John

 

[Chetlaham]

Until you factor in heating cold water locally is much more efficient than idling a 50 gallon tank 24/7 or even a tank-less heater. At 120 volts it takes too long to heat cold water so you essentially have to do a hot fill. And because water cools in between runs things like DWs had to do several 2+ gallons prewashes to get the temperature hot enough for the wash before thermal holds. Front loads end up with lukewarm hot fills since the energy in the pipes simply dissipates in the walls and floors.

 

 

3000 watt appliances heat and cook faster, a big plus while using the same amount of energy. To raise 1 cup of water 100*F requires the same amount of energy regardless if the heater is 500 watts, 1,500 watts or 3000 watts.

 

But again, factor in the watts loss of the US distribution system and its clear were trying to heat the outdoors.

 

 

The code is trying to get 16 AWG copper and 10 amp circuits legal yes, however in any case 240 volts will always maximize the amount of copper used and reduce losses. There is also the addition of safety in that doubling the voltage doubles the current through a fault speeding up clearing time of fuses and circuit breakers. Earth/ground fault loop impedance of a circuit greatly improves at 230 volts to ground with any given length.  

 

 

 

[me]

High wattage appliances

3,000 watt rapid boil electric kettles are common place here in the UK, I wouldn't go back to the old fashioned 2,200 watt ones we used to have, it would take too long to make tea!

Power outages in the UK are rare in the extreme, the national grid takes care of peak demands, although I gather due to underinvestment in recent years they have come very close on a few occasions to not being able to meet demand. Last outage we had must have been over a decade ago, I was told by a neighbour that the neighbourhood's transformer had "blown up", so a very exceptional circumstance.

My washing machine's element on its own is 1,950 watt, a ~2,000 watt element is pretty standard for a washing machine.

I've got a pre-ban 1,800 watt Samsung cylinder vacuum, it was rated at 350 air watts, its quicker and sucks more dust out of the carpets than any other vacuum I've owned, admittedly, I only use it on full power while using the turbo brush, or if the filter is nearly blocked.

The European Union banned high power vacuums, the problem was manufacturers were marketing their vacuums on ever bigger motor power, some as much as 2,200 watts, some people had argued that they should have been putting a performance rating like airwatts on the energy labels to address that. I can recall looking at a vacuum that was over 2,000 watts, but was such a poor design that it was only rated at something like 200 airwatts, which was no better than some 800 watt vacuums could do, meanwhile some of the more efficient 2,000 watt machines could manage 400 airwatts. We are now limited to a max of 900watt, unless it has a bypass motor (wet and dry), or an extra wide wand head (commercial vacuums).

 

[novum]

3kW electric kettles absolutely do not cause power outages. They’re extremely common appliances here, as are irons up to 3kW, you’ll also commonly find fan heaters, convection heaters and portable oil radiators that can go up to 3kW

1970s Argos catalogue featured plenty of them https://wearethemutants.com/2017/08/01/argos-catalogue-kettle-pages-19761985/#jp-carousel-15117

Power outages are extremely rare. I’ve only ever experienced one due to a neighbour’s tree coming down in a storm and taking out the overhead drop into their house and tripping the line also feeding my house underground.

Whole thing was back online about 3 hours later thought.

Kettles compared - bear in mind the average person here (and in the UK) consumes multiple cups of tea per day:



In terms of energy consumption, they're both basically the same - one just runs for twice as long at half the wattage. [this post was last edited: 12/7/2023-11:30]

 

[combo52]

Electric tea, kettle, Speed, etc.

Hi Jack thanks for the video

I know it uses the same amount of energy to use either a 1500 or 3000 W tea kettle, but it has been widely reported that when soap operas and other dramas on television have been played in the UK and a tense moment arrives and they go to a commercial break there have been power brownouts and blackouts, because so many people went and put on the kettle at the same time.

There certainly are a few places where higher wattage being available would be helpful such as an outdoor electric grill the ones we have here in the states are kind of weak and only 15 1600 W. Next.

There certainly are a few places where higher wattage being available would be helpful such as an outdoor electric grill the ones we have here in the states are kind of weak and only 1600 W.

But it definitely encourages energy conservation if you have to do more with less and of course, there’s an increased danger of electrical fire when you have that much power available outlets all over the house.

 

[Chetlaham]

Increased danger of fire

Not really. Data shows Europe and the UK to have fewer electrical fires than North America at best, at worse roughly the same amount.

Fires are usually caused by joule heating (amps through a resistive connection). Good engineering assures either prevention or detection of such an event.

 

[maytag85]

Reply #94

Pretty munch all appliances sold here in the US since the beginning of time came to a plug and a cord. Only appliances I can think of that need to have a cord installed are dryers and electric stoves depending if it’s setup to be hardwired in or not. Wouldn’t be UL approved to sell appliances where you have to install a plug on the end of the cord.

I agree with John in reply #101, there’s no need to have 3000w vacuum cleaners and frankly, that’s overkill. Get by perfectly fine with my vintage Kirby’s that use less than 500 watts of power in use.

Not to mention, 240v is a bit more dangerous since it can carry more current which is lethal. Split phase 240v is safer since there’s no 240v potential anywhere and things like dryers here in the US/North America are backwards compatible for anyone who doesn’t have 240 available.

 

[me]

I think the arguments against fitting moulded plugs were basically added cost and added packaging needed to prevent the pins of bulky uk plugs damaging the appliance. The only appliances that used to come with a plug were things like shavers and electric toothbrushes which use the much more compact uk 2 pin shaver plugs.

It was crazy that it took so long for pre-fitted plugs to be mandated, it used to result in lots of badly wire plugs and people not fitting a fuse of the correct rating. Also meant a frustrating delay wiring up the plug before you could try your brand new appliance out.

The only people who benefitted were the electrical retailers who would try to sell you an overpriced plug and pack of fuses with your purchase.

 

[me]

Brown outs and blackouts

Brown outs never happen in the UK, and as far as I know, there hasn't been a blackout other than localised faults since the 1970s, and that was caused by industrial action by the miners. The national grid has computer modelling to predict demand such as ad breaks and can quickly bring on hydroelectric power from Scotland and Wales while the gas turbine stations and other generators ramp up their output. There were concerns that there could be rolling blackouts last winter due to gas shortages, and that's still a possibility this winter.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/national-grid-blackouts-uk-winter-2022-b2232080.html

 

[foraloysius]

Well, the energy market has become more stable, Europe is less dependent on Russia. Prices have gone down too. Therefore the risk of a blackout is much smaller than last year.

 

[novum]

TV Pick Up -

There are surges in depend that coincide with the TV schedule, particularly Coronation Street apparently, but they are blips on a graph, not brownouts. There was a lot of tabloid nonsense about them, but there's no issue with brownouts in the UK or here, rather it just means that the UK National Grid and Eirgrid here will notice 'blips' in demand as certain ad breaks happen. 

 

It's likely less of an issue now as people tend to watch IPTV based catch up services and on demand more and may be watching soaps out of sync with real time.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup

 

You used to get similar issues with radio phone-in competitions to the point that they could crash telephone exchanges, especially in the 1970s and 80s when crossbar and stepping switches were still in use. But, even early digital exchanges had issues.

 

I know for example here in Ireland, competition lines likely to generate 'bursty call' patterns all start with a particularly number.

 

1800 71 XXXX

0818 71 XXXX

 

The '71' told the digital switch or mobile network to dump the call without even attempting it, if it's under extreme pressure basically to avoid disruption. They were used with mostly telephone competitions and radio phone ins.

 

I don't think those kinds of competitions are even a thing anymore

 

[me]

110 Volts in UK

110 volts is used in the UK on building sites for greater safety since tools are bound to get wet, and cables damaged.

Site transformers have an earthed centre tap on the secondary, so if they receive a shock, the voltage to ground is limited to 55 volts, and there are different sized plugs for 16 and 32 amps. You can get 110v tools that are the same wattage as their 240v equivalents.

 

[novum]

They’re used here in Ireland too. Different to US power tools though. it’s specifically 110V 50Hz, split phase at 180° with no neutral, from a centre tapped transformer, giving you roughly 55V to ground. It’s basically like a U.S. 240V supply, at half the voltage.

Also the plugs used are the yellow version of “CEEform” CEE 17 or BS4343, which was adopted by the IEC internationally as IEC60309 often called “Commando” or “CEEform”

RCD protected 230V(blue plugs and cables) and 400V (ref plugs and cables) are allowed on site, but not for handheld equipment.

These are plugs that are used on all industrial equipment in Europe (including the U.K.) and replaced a load of old industrial connectors of various designs both national standards and proprietary systems.

They’re heavy duty, sleeve-pin plugs with keying to avoid connections to wrong supply voltage, designed for very rough use and are latching, available in various IP ratings and can be used as couplers etc etc

Before the 1960s these used to use BS196 which was an old British industrial connector of a sleeve and pin design, but was metal clad with a scraping ground. They’re long since phased out and banned.

 

[Chetlaham]

[No message]

 

[rinso]

It is safe to use an ungrounded, non-polarized device if the AC goes directly into a transformer, like a phone charger, a lamp, or an old electronic device. The transformer effectively isolates the device from line.

 

[combo52]

The outlet in reply number 114

Is polarized and it is safer to use a polarized outlet with things even like a table lamp because you can change the bulb without danger being electrocuted.

It is true that many electrical devices do not need a ground, but grounded outlets are still required and just make common sense to use, somebody obviously didn’t inspect this electrical panel and outlet recently because that wouldn’t of been legal after about 1963 and most parts of the US.

John