UNUSED GE Pot scubber Dishwasher

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I don't hold the opinion 120º is enough for washing.

For most loads, its perfectly adequate, although used frequently enough, I found previously that odours can and would buildup in our machine.
Also was nowhere near impressed on plenty of occasions the way the dishes came out after a greasy load went through at this sort of temperature, both in terms of odour and "feel" of the dishes. 'Clean,' but you could tell something was amiss.

Quite happy to keep hotter washing temperatures. It can be attained in environmentally-friendly means - solar water heating is installed in a lot of people's homes in the world... Although everyone seems to ignore this when discussing "environmental and monetary benefits of washing in frigid water."

And on water usage, even the average vintage machine uses less water than it generally takes to wash a capacity load by hand - especially people like me who start by rinsing everything, filling the sink with hot water, rinsing all the soap off afterwards and replacing sink water as it gets dirty.
Those YouTube peanuts who claim they can wash with less water than a dishwasher evidently haven't tried washing a full set of 12 place settings, encrusted pots and pans, utensils and the like. Plenty of things like that need good running water and huge amounts of effort to achieve anything.

The main place water is wasted, as I see it, is in industrial processes. The average home user contributes so much less than many industrial operations not only to pollution, but water usage and damage to waterways (i.e. from phosphates) that it isn't funny. Whats happened is like plugging a pin prick hole in a dyke when there is a huge leak just a km away threatening to flood a town.
 
Johnb300m

1. Uhhh, phosphates are a leading cause of algal blooms in lakes, rivers and streams, which are a detriment to the environment.
Depends on the 'phosphates'.  Neither TSP nor STTP contribute one iota to algal bloom.
2. Somedetergents still use chlorine bleach. Others use oxygen bleaches.

Good to know, thank you. 
3. 120 degrees is more than efficient to clean a normal load of dishes with good detergent and a good wash/spray system. If you don't want bacteria (which is such a low risk it's almost humorous) then use your Sanitize cycle/option.

I have not seen that to be true. Then again, I don't prewash and I do expect spotless performance, including on oatmeal and baked on eggs/starch. As to the bacteria and mold, 120F isn't enough, not by a long shot.
4. Eco water saving machines took a few years to work out the kinks, but if you look in the Blue section of the forum, there's mounting evidence of new dishwashers using mere 2-6gal of water per cycle, with NO pre-rinsing, and coming out perfectly clean. If you choose to disregard actual user experiences.....then nobody can help you.

My last European dishwasher (I'm German) was a 2014 TOL Miele. It did, indeed, clean well. Took four hours, nearly. Unacceptable. Still needed the 75C program to really clean naked on food.
5. Food choppers were removed in the hunt for more efficient, smaller motors in order to use less water and energy. I'm a food chopper fan, but with a new filter dishwasher, I've not missed it at all. Millions of chopper-free dishwashers run in Europe every day, and make perfectly clean dishes. It's just not a feature that enough consumers demand anymore.

Yeah, I spent nearly my entire adult life cleaning those damn filters. Unacceptable. 
6. I think your impression of modern, Energy Saving appliances is grossly overstated. Are you even paying attention to the looming global water crisis of dwindling fresh ground/lakewater and encroaching saltwater? If my appliances can save me money on my utility bills and use less coal and less water and still perform to my satisfaction, awesome. If you can't find ANYTHING out there that meets your satisfaction, then I'm sorry. Market forces with nudges from government agency have produced the market we have today. And consumers seem to be generally OK with it. If they were not? You'd see more revolts in purchasing pressures and complaints to BBB and Federal Trade Commission on fraudulent goods in the market.

Consumer water use is nothing compared to the damage done by fracking. It's politically correct, but just plain irrelevant. I want my dishes clean, my machine reasonably sanitary and I refuse to waste my time and hot water pre-rinsing.

In summary: Whaaaaaaahhhhhhhh :'(

 

My questions are not whinging, they're relevant.
 
Phospates----We EMIT more when we use the bathroom-and runoff from lawns and such from rain and watering-another phosphate source.Used in fertilizers and lawn,plant treatments.What comes from detergents is really minor-not worth the ballyhoo.And there are phosphate mines in my area and other places in the South.
 
I have to agree on phosphates from detergent usage. Now that they are not used at all (or in minimal trace amounts) in the US, I really don't feel guilty using STPP in my laundry or dishwasher use. The percentage of people using phosphates as an additive is extremely small. Hell, my good friend is very environmentally conscious and she didn't even know anything about STPP. So I'm not worried.

I'm all for conserving energy and saving water if needed. But in my opinion, it depends on where you are. Here in the northeast we do not have a water shortage, and rarely do. So I don't feel guilty either about using older appliances that use more water...especially when I don't pay for my water usage. It's just not an issue for me. Reducing hot water usage is strictly a money thing. I mean if people are willing to pay more, why not let them use as much hot water as they want? But I do know that modern appliances that restrict hot water usage still clean exceptionally well. I'm not wearing a blindfold when it comes to reality.

So I can see both sides of the spectrum. Of course, me Mr. Moderate. LOL
 
Joeypete

You're right.

There's also the not so minor fact that modern water treatment facilities recover organically accessible phosphate compounds.

I find it a bit ironic that those arguing I should abandon vintage appliances, hot water and real detergents for 'modern' appliances would use water treatment technology from the mid-20th century as the basis for their argument in the 21st.

We had guests this summer who are the personification of pre-scrubbing and rinsing every single dish which goes into the dishwasher.

They used up nearly 90 gallons of hot water 'saving' the 'environment' from my evil, twisted GSD Twenty Eight Hundred and it's horrid, wasteful ways.

I'm not opposed to genuine advances in technology, as a discussion here over 10 years ago thoroughly explored. Just no patience with faux-science and plastic-fantastic trash sold to clean which has to be cleaned itself, it's so anemic.
 
Panthera

Did you have your Miele checked? I did look at the manual of the latest (and thus most efficient) model and the Intensive cycle is 2:40 hrs. - not almost four hours. I wonder if something ws wrong with yours.

I can attest that the 45°C Eco Intensive cycle of my Siemens cleans even baked on baking dishes / BobLoads just fine in 2:20 hrs. with Aldi powdered detergent. However, I must admit that I basically use the auto cycle with speed mode all the time, as I run the dishwasher after dinner late in the evening and still want to unload it before going to bed. Cycle time then is identical to, say, Whirlpool Power Clean machines.

I love the idea of food choppers... but the inlet to them on most machines seems too small to let pieces of meat, lettuce leaves, beans etc. pass the through and then you're still "stuck" with having to scrape dishes.
 
logixx,

Interestingly enough, I've never encountered a stuck drain hose in a dishwasher with a chopper blade. Must have happened, no doubt, but I've not seen it.
And, I don't pre-rinse at all.
Ever.
Yes, my last Miele took forever. I do think part of it was the way it had been reduced to 10Amp service. Big difference to my beloved 3-phase (which I would have never given up, the idiot movers dropped it down the stairs and THROUGH the glass doors right out onto Klenzestr., where it was promptly hit by a passing truck.
Sigh.
Anyway, I do think it was something like 3.47 hours at it's very worst.
Still miss the chocolate and butter and bread and coffee.
 
Commercial

Apologies if this has been posted before but I was able to find the commercial that went with the pot-scrubber two:



I have to ask, how long is the main wash on the potscrubber two, that looks like an awful baked on mess. Yikes!
 
Hi Panthera.

My G5715 SCU XXL takes 1:30-2 hours on the Auto Cycle with 50degC Inlet water. The last 30 minutes of that is drying. Wash temp is 45-65degC, rinse is 60C.

Auto with Turbo option and 50degC inlet water is 55-70 minutes and the last 5 minutes is drying.

Pots and pans usually starts at 2:20 and at worst has taken 2:40, main wash is 70degC, rinse is 60degC

The only cycle on mine that runs more than 2:45 is the Extra quiet cycle which takes 4.35 hours.

If you hook it up to cold fill you add about 10 minutes more to each cycle.

The older G2220 SCI XXL had about the same wash times, just without the turbo option.

You clean the filter once every other month, generally its only hard particles left, all the soft stuff does down the drain.

This is the 15 place setting version tall tub running of a standard Aussie 230v 10 amp socket.

How old was yours the only way I could see it taking that long was if it was a very early model that had 2-3gallon fills and was only heating with less than 1000 watts. I guess that's possible if the heating element was designed to be 2400 watts at 400v, that's only 800watts at 240v. We had a late 70's Dishlex connected to cold water for a while and the 10L fills with an 1100watt element took an eternity to heat.

Regards

Nathan
 
Goodness

Four and one-half hours! Nathan, that's quite something.

I guess some detail is in order. I'd sold my condo, was on my way to the US and we hit a bureaucratic snag. The brand new Miele is in a flat belonging to a dear friend in Munich. She's very much an environmentalist and noise sensitive. This generation of Mieles repeats the last program unless you change it, so I'm guessing she had every eco-option and extraleise running. 

I was only there for a month, had neither time nor interest in playing with it.

Unless they're three-phase, German dishwashers were generally derated down to 10 amps after reunification. Munich runs pretty steady at 230V so I doubt it's the heating, despite the cold water and low power heating. Just the way it was programmed.

 
 
Time

I downloaded the Service manual for this machine (Thanks Robert!!!!! :D ) and a normal cycle appears to be 40 minutes with a 21 minute dry and 71 minutes on the pot-scrubber cycle. It seems the next engineering revision, GSD950-02 changes the dry time to 31 minutes and the manual even mentions 9 minutes were added due to short drying.

Over all I am really impressed with potscrubber II machines. Had GE added a filter I think this could easily have been a major hit across us homes.
 
Ge Potscrubber II

The service manual on these is hilarious to read. GE flat out admits that they were rolled out too early and the details on all the flaws and how they were fixed/minimized is beyond words funny.

And that's what killed them - by the time GE had them fixed, people had had it with their awful performance, horrible service record and the really bad customer service GE in far too many places had on offer at the time.

Same stupid mentality as Microshrott with their intentionally too small teams and too tight deadlines.

 

 
 
I agree, I got a kick out of reading it lol. Apparently sump boots had been coming off. Word of that spreading would be the ultimate black eye. And the others like no click lock on the push buttons and condensation on critical components are certainly rushed engineering. Changing a timer is a pain as well to gain 9 minutes of dry time or lockable push-buttons. Half the machine needs to be rewired.

I think what ultimately failed GE was starting from the top down rather then from the bottom up. Incorporating a first generation perma tuff design to a BOL would have been far easier then attempting a never before designed or tested wash system with a complex rapid advance timer. Not only did that ruin the honeymoon, but it kept mediocre plastisol tub machines on the market for another 9 years. GE's top priority should have been those since they were bringing down reputation one rust spot at a time.
 
Sorry,I don't agree with the water uses and pump designs..The Old K-Aids that have the big motor will last for 20 years or more  but now we have been replacing these new ones every 3 to 4 years..So how does that save anything in the long run?The only people that win are the companies that sell them. The only new dishwasher brand that I trust is Miele .My 1984 Superba just now quit and died after 32 years that is not bad at all and you will not find a new one that will last that long. All these eco wing nuts can build them a out house and just quit bathing and cut there power off but, then nobody would want to be near them because they smell like shit and they would have no purpose in life so hey it would be a win win for us..
smiley-cool.gif


 
 
Longevity Of GE Built [ and other ] DWs In The 60s-70s

In families of at least 4 persons and being run at least once a day. These numbers are based on mine and several other technicians that I worked closely with during the 70s and through today.

 

GE Plastisol drop door DWs 62-66 4-10 years, these usually either rusted out or the motor relay stuck and took out the motor.

 

GE Plastisol DD DWs 67-81 5-10 years, usually were replaced because of rust through of the door or tank in the sump area, other trouble spots were timers and motors and pump.

 

Westinghouse DD DWs from 65-70 4-8 years, problem areas were main pump seal and ruined motors, leaks many places, bad door seals and broken door latches.

 

WH 71-74 4-6 years severe pump problems that often took the motor with it, plus it was such a piss poor DW that most people could not wait to replace it.

 

D&M DWs 1964-84 5-10 years, pump problems, bad motors, leaks around door and vent plate, the problems with these poor quality DWs going into the 70s kept getting worse, almost ever part of D&M DWs was substandard right down to the cheap rubber drain hoses that would split if you looked at it wrong, LOL.

 

WP DWs 1964-72 6-8 years, problem areas main pump, detergent dispensers.

 

WP DWs 73-84 8-14 years WP DWs got a lot better through the 70s and into the 80s, they made a huge improvement in pump durability when they started selling DWs to Sears in 1985 in all their DWs.

 

KA DWs 1964-75 these include KD 15 through 17 series DWs 10-20 years, KAs were in a class by them selves, and while they were not the most trouble free DW they were easy to fix and usually worth fixing partly because of the good performance and the high cost of the DW itself.

 

KA KD-18s through KD21s 10-16 years, as KAs became more complex and cycles got longer their longevity got shorter.

 

Most frequent reason for replacement of KAs were bad main motors and generally poor overall condition [ rusted racks etc ].

 

Dishwashers are historically the most replaced major appliance, the same seems true today. About the only major appliance that we are replacing more often today are Over-The-Range MWOs which I strongly advise against having. These are all averages , many many DWs can and did last much longer, just like many many of today's appliances WILL be going strong in 25-35 years from now.

 

We replace a lot of DWs today, but overall they average around 15 years of age when scraped, 75% could be repaired but because of high repair cost most people chose a new DW as the real price of a DW is much less than it was in the 60s-70s.

 

John L.

 
 
John,

That was fascinating, thank you!

Over the range microwave ovens seem only one step above BIC pens in longevity. We picked up a stainless steel GE spacemaker II (Japanese) for $5.00 in perfect physical condition. It had 'stopped working' the first day it had been installed because the in-duh-vi-duals had boiled a big pot of water for spaghetti right under it. Imagine that, heat and steam and condensing water being bad for exposed electronics!

 

Replaced a few components, put it under a counter above the trash compactor and it's been happy (slow, but happy, they're all slow) for many years now. 

 

If I had to put a microwave above a stove, I'd go for a purely mechanical timer and the simplest LC circuit to drive the magnetron I could find. With a second fan to divert moisture/grease laden air away from the LCcircuit (transformer, diode, capacitor, tube).

After all, lots of 1970s low-high ranges with microwaves on top are still nuking popcorn.

 

Why do you suppose consumers put up with such poor quality back then? We obviously don't, look how often you get asked arcane questions about how to improve a GE this, that or the other...
 
I've done quite a few GE electromechnaical

Dishwashers in the last two years and there's a real improvement in quality between the '74 and the '84 and then a really quick slide into just good enough after that.

YMMV, but much as I dislike Whirlpool in general, GE really went to the dogs during the Welch era.

Sort of like GM in the first decade of the 2000s - all the gains they'd made in the '90s were wiped out completely.
 
Meaning business

LOL!
Many others would say (like me) all those shaded pole motor vibrations and roars were consequences of cheapness and poor dampening.
GE also HAD to have large water consumption and large jets because they refused to design any filter systems for their dishwashers.

Like John's fantastic market insight, my family members have had great dishwasher luck over the years with various brands.
The KAs always lasted the longest.
Only one KA was taken out by the high iron content of my aunts' well water and the stainless tub rusted.
Our GEs have all lasted 12-18yrs except for the BOL GE that came with our house, that lasted 7.
The WPs lasted just as long.
One "tall tub" Maytag I know of, lasted the least possibly of user neglect.

I know the modern machines are heavily scorned in this community, and sometimes rightly so. But if you get a good one with good electronics, there's no reason those won't last the average 7-12 years. Just like the seemingly hallowed machines of the 70s.
 
Not quite a '78 but...my parents bought their current house new in '85 and they've never used the dishwasher. I'm pretty sure it's a GE, next time I'm there I'll take a pic.
 
they have a built in dishwasher and have never used it??

Wow,  i can see not buying one but to not use one that is just sitting there doesn't make sense to me.

 

 
 
You're absolutely right DaDos, and age don't matter. Young n old they think it's wasteful to run a machine with a motor for 2-3 hrs and that fills to the TOP with dozens of gallons of water!
Much faster n cheaper to just hand wash (eye roll)
 
Lol, yes, my Mom is an odd bird. She never owned a dishwasher until they bought that house in '85 and it was already installed. She's convinced it wouldn't clean as well as she does by hand. She just uses it for storage. She also has a very nice Maytag electric dryer from the early '60's that has seen very little use.
 
 
I recall 40-ish years ago when relatives were visiting for Thanksgiving or Christmas or some such holiday after we'd gotten the KDI-17a.  We loaded it up after the meal, packed to the brim as typical, and used the Soak cycle.  My mother's aunt sat watching it warily, and remarked "I guess it has to fill" when it stopped spraying for the soak period ... I suppose envisioning that the tub filled like a washing machine and the dishes then whirled and sloshed around.
 

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