Vinegar as a "softener"

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Thanks for the link to sciencedirekt about proteases and pH levels, I only skimmed it, but my impression is it is only about the prepared washing solution not product stability. Looks like proteases from powder detergents can tolerate higher pH levels and even higher temperatures for a certain period of time after they got in contact with the alkali by mixing with water.
I`m still uncertain about whether a high pH of a liquid detergent would affect enzyme stability or not.
 
It would seem modern enzymes in TOL liquid detergents

From the likes of P&G, Henkel and other dominate players are rather stable.

https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Form...for+multiple+enzyme+stability;...-a0112680744

http://www.novozymes.com/en/news/ne...s-more-consistent-wash-performance-in-laundry

At least here P&G does have "shelf life" information on their bottles of liquid detergents and fabric softeners. If you telephone P&G, give the code on bottle they can tell when it was produced. IIRC for fabric softeners P&G says they are supposed be good for a year or so after production. Cannot recall the exact number, but got it when a bottle of Downy had purchased but rarely used turned into a gloppy mess. P&G told me then that their laundry products do have a shelf life (who knew?), and that mine had "expired".

Have some vintage boxes of detergent powder with enzymes. Have used Axion in past with excellent results and that stuff is over twenty years old.
 
Reports of vinegar damaging washer tubs probably should be taken with a scoop of salt.

It has come to my attention that some sources recommend cleaning a washer by adding quarts if not gallons of undiluted vinegar directly to the machine, and then running a hot wash cycle. This is a far greater concentration of acetic acid than just adding an ounce or two of vinegar to the rinse cycle. Plus, the heat would potentiate the acid attack on porcelain, something that most rinse cycles, which use just cold tap water, would not do.

I would not recommend using such a combination of high vinegar concentration and heat in any washer. A couple of ounces in the last (cold) rinse, OK.

It's a matter of proportion and common sense.

As an aside, mineral scale would not build up in a washer that used phosphated laundry detergents on a regular basis. Just sayin'...
 
That freelibrary link was a good read. Had no idea that even the type of surfactants used in a liquid had an impact on enzyme stability. And it confirmed what I always suspected.

"Stabilization of enzymes in liquid laundry detergents is more difficult than in powders. In liquid systems, enzymes are easily denatured by detergent ingredients. Alkalinity, high water content and surfactant interactions are all capable of changing the three dimensional conformation of the protein."

My question why (when studying msds) enzyme containing liquid detergents always seem to be less alkaline compared to no-enzyme heavy duty liquids is finally answered.
 
Liquids less base than powders

IIRC one of the links provided summed things up nicely; the enzymes are doing the work what once was done by high pH and water temperatures.

This is reflected in the gradual decrease on both sides of the Pond of average wash temperatures used in domestic laundry. The advent of enzymes what will work in "cold" or "cool" water has even further helped that "turn the dial" down marketing brigade seeking to increase energy savings.
 
I get the point that enzymes do the work what once was done by high pH and water temperatures, but then we probably wouldn`t see powders which are still very high in pH anymore because they contain enzymes too.

One might argue this is because the bleaches still need the high pH to get going, but color care powders don`t contain bleach and are still high in pH.
Powders don`t necessarily have to be very alkaline, just think of powders for delicates, they were very common in Europe before liquids widely took their place.

So again I think the detergent industry would make liquids in higher pH if it was possible, but it looks like it isn`t because of product shelf life.
 
Light duty laundry products for laundry

Such as delicates, silk and wool were and still are largely based on sulfates such as SLS, alkyl aryl sulfonate, etc... Tough powders they do not contain alkaline builders such as borax, washing soda or silicates.

One of the most common "detergents" used by quilters, special laundries, textile restorers and others is Orvus WA Paste, which is mostly sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS). http://www.conservationsupportsystems.com/product/show/orvus-wa-paste/detergents-soaps.

Those little blue and white tin cans of Woolite our mothers and many other females kept round for washing nylons, slips, and other "intimate apparel) was originally Sodium dodecylbenzenesulfonate. Those bottles of Woolite were the same along with SLS.

SLS and other anionic surfactants are not fun things to inhale, trust me, I know. So can see why liquids and paste versions came about. Years ago now you could purchase hair shampoo as a paste/crème, but now think everything is liquids.
 
"So again I think the detergent industry would make liquids in higher pH if it was possible, but it looks like it isn`t because of product shelf life."

Well they "could" but why would they want to do so? Between surfactants and enzymes like Lipase the need for the brute force of high pH to saponify fats/oils/grease is reduced for most normal purposes.

Now if one has problems that cannot be shifted via the pH of regular liquid laundry detergent, makers have that covered as well; simply purchase any of the wide variety of "boosters" that are usually nothing more than alkaline substances (usually soda), more enzymes and bleach (oxygen).

On the commercial side laundries have access to "breaks" and other boosters including some pretty nasty things like sodium hydroxide (in a word, lye).

In old times lye was used in the home for laundry (as in lye soap) but I couldn't recommend that today.

https://www.quora.com/My-mom-is-washing-clothes-in-pure-lye-is-this-safe
 
"It has come to my attention that some sources recommend cleaning a washer by adding quarts if not gallons of undiluted vinegar directly to the machine, and then running a hot wash cycle. This is a far greater concentration of acetic acid than just adding an ounce or two of vinegar to the rinse cycle. Plus, the heat would potentiate the acid attack on porcelain, something that most rinse cycles, which use just cold tap water, would not do."

Don't know about that method, but every packet of washing machine descaler such as that sold by Miele states clearly in directions several rinses with clear water must follow. Some professionals suggest doing a load of wash with a powdered detergent afterwards since the base pH will help neutralize any remaining acids.

Again many people pick up on these "home remedies" or whatever not fully understanding the science behind things. If one gallon of white vinegar is good, then lets go for two or more.

OTOH commercially prepared washing machine cleaners/decalcifer are formulated to give just the proper acidic pH in solution to get the job done without the potential for harm (if properly used).

That being said have used white vinegar to "clean out" my Miele from time to time; but the amount used along with other directions came from tech support.
 
The gotcha is that enzymes are useless when it comes to removing inorganic soils from fabrics. So an effective detergent still needs some alkali and surfactant to break these away from the fabric, and a builder to capture them so they can be rinsed away. This is where most liquid laundry detergents perform less admirably than powders. The powders are more alkali, and can incorporate more efficient water softeners and breaks than liquids.

And of course STPP is perhaps the best ingredient to break inorganic soil from fabrics, and to hold it in suspension so it can be rinsed away. Nothing else really comes close.
 
Launderess,
Some of your answers have very little to do with my question, you almost akt like a politican sometimes.

I wonder why is so hard for you to admitt you don`t know it for sure and just leave it at that ?

Nobody has all the anwers to life or even just detergents and there`s nothing to be ashamed of !
 
Liquids: less alkaline

If that is the case, it might explain why some machines suffer from that foul smelling sludge.

Over time, general dirt, grime and a fairly neutral liquid detergent might tip the pH into the acidic region, allowing biofilms and bacteria to multiply.

Hence the reason for maintenance washes with powder detergent: not only to kill the biofilm, but to tip the pH balance in the tub back to alkalinity again.

Methinks powders are the way to go, except for fine delicates and woollens.
 
Just tested

the two liquid detergents I have around..
Ecos liquid tested to a PH of 7
Woolite liquid for darks tested to a PH of 8
Talk among yourselves
 
Laundress:

I always enjoy your replies and posts.

 

That you may not have answered the question the "way" the person wanted is not to be of your concern.   

 

I told someone recently, on this site, to consider the source....please do.

 

I think I am safe in saying the majority of the group/club, value your research, wisdom and contributions are indeed invaluable.  

 

xo,

 

Mike
 
I think of Launderess as bursting with information she wants to share, and we benefit from it. Can't think of anyone here I'd rather see a post from.

Lots of interesting topics at this site wander off on tangents, so there's nothing unexpected about that. It's part of the fun.
 
I`m not ungrateful. I honestly appreciate the information you share with us.

What I won`t tolerate anylonger is that arrogant way of yours looking down on other members who happen to have the nerve to disagree with your wisdom sometimes.
Where is Freddy by the way ?
You have to understand no one here in the group has the intention to throw you from your well deserved "throne" or "stage", but there has to be room for other opinions as well. No one is without fail not even you.

I believe it`s best to address a problem directly and move on instead of endless frustrations for the sake of courtesty.
So I hope we can agree now that we both have our opinions on the pH of detergents but none of us knows for sure and settle this stupid feud of ours once and for all !
 
So you also think I have to be grateful (!) I`ve even been talked to and have no right to criticize that some of the answers had nothing to do with my questions ?
It`s not about getting exactly the answer I would like to hear, different opinions are great and much appreciated.
No, it`s the attitude of not even bothering to fully read a question but giving an answer. All I`m asking for is a little bit of repect.

And yes this stupid feud has been going on for a long time and I`m not happy about it and I`m willing to sort things out but runnig away isn`t very helpful.
 
Oh and Harley, I almost forgot it`s been a long time ago after all, but aren`t you the one who said I was FOS ? It`s fine, I couldn`t care less. I`m an adult and I`m still here and talking to you.
I suppose we both know your standards of moral haven`t been so high in the past as they are today so what do you think puts you into the position to say I owe anyone an apology now ?
 
Mike:
I am sure you are right. Sometimes egos need a time out.

Stefan,
Gezzz I thought we Scorpios held on to things, chill dude. When you are either feuding, or are attempting to feud with a number of people, you should ask yourself what, or whom is the common denominator.

My comment to laundress was an attempt at humor,in character with Hyacinth, her brother in law Onslow was mentioned.

I do not recall previously having a discussion with you or stating you be FOS ,however, my assessments are usually pretty accurate. Now let's drop this, or move our discussion to non public forums. [this post was last edited: 4/20/2017-22:42]
 
Stefen

Please don't take this the wrong way, my intentions are well meaning...
Incase you didn't know...Accusing someone of acting like a politician is rude and highly insulting here in this country.
It basically means that someone is dishonest or lying. I'm sure it's why she took offense, and I'm sure you didn't mean it that way. Right?
With most of her posts she provided a link for our benefit, not for hers.
Wish I could answer your question for you, but I think it's best answerd by a chemist at PG or Henkel.
If you should find a answer by a chemist that has specific knowledge in this area of expertise, youl share it with us of course!
 
Stan, you`re absolutly right I didn`t mean it that way. I wasn`t thinking my comparison with a politician could be understood as lying or being dishonet.
My point was I find it utterly disrespectful if someone doges a question instead of admitting not to have an answer.

I too would hate to see Launderess leave but I`m sure she`s a grown up girl and only meant this thread.
I just had to vent my anger. It`s a new day the sun is shining and I promise I´ll be good now.
 

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