Washing Machine Fires

[brisnat81]

Hey Steve,

Wasnt meaning to sound confrontational, just disagreeing. Do the US GFI's annoyance trip that often?

Garden Web or That Home Site is a US site, that covers off Laundry, electrical etc. ths.gardenweb.com

Over here, Kettles, Toasters, Irons, Dishwashers, Electric Frying pans, FL Washers all exist at around 1800 - 2400watts.

I dont have a current coffee maker, those from the 60s and 70's were all around 700watts.

Our Miele Vac is 2400watts, most would be no lower than 1200 watts these days.

You're right the voltage has supposedly changed on paper here, but not in reality, its still 240v or so.

I'm bemused reading about the need for AFCI's on 110, it is a foreign concept here. With the higher voltage the problem of arcing, slowly causing a fire doesnt seem to happen. I guess rather than creating a spark, the extra voltage causes enough of a short that the Circuit breaker will trip as soon as it happens.

It was where you cited the 80% rule that I was talking about de-rating. Usually here, non GPO's are single outlet circuits for 15 and 20amps, so maybe that is why we dont de-rate. There are very few portable appliances here that are more than 10 amps.

Not intending to be a pissing match, just bemused by the fear of 240 and RCD's. My biggests fear in the US is of the Zip cord powering things like Irons etc. That sort of cable has been illegal here since the late 90's.

Cheers

Nathan

 

[toggleswitch2]

:-0)

Proving once again that "We are all our postal (ZIP) code"
and come to beliove that which we are accostomed to is "the norm".

And as for another useless tid-bit of information I just learned that ZIP code is the name given to postal codes.

1- In that it implies quick movement.
2- Short for "Zoning Imprevement Program".

Thanks for the information. Must stay up-to-date to maintain Samantha's nick-name of "The Plug Queen"

 

[dj-gabriele]

My ridiculous opinion theses tend to hover around 1,500 watt

Yeah! I wanted to ask this question so badly since ages!

Anyway, here are some ratings from Italy

Microwave combination oven: 2550W (Plug 16A at 230V)
can be anything from 1150 (only micro at 800W power to 3300 big units with all the stuff)
Vacuum cleaner: 2400W (Plug 16A at 230V)
(smaller I could find in the shop yesterday is 1200W)
Hair dryer: 1200W (Plug 10A at 230V)
(again smaller was 1000W and biggest 2800W)
Bread toaster: 1500W (Plug 10A at 230V) (4 slices)
(those range from 500W to 1500W)
Washing machine: 2300W (Plug 10A at 230V)
(they start at 1850W, Indesit, to 2300W)
Dryer: have none (Plug 16A at 230V)
(usually from 2200W to 2800W)
Electric room heater: 2000W (Plug 10A at 230V)
(it seems to be a standard power and all I have seen have 2 coils for 1 or 2 Kw)
Electric grill: 2400W (Plug 16A at 230V)
(from small 1800W ones to 3,3KW)
Electric ironer: 1400W (Plug 10A at 230V)
(those vary wildly from 800W to 2800W)
Fryer: 2200W (Plug 16A at 230V)
(from 2000W to 2700W)
Dishwasher: 2200W (Hardwired to a bipolar switch)
(from 2000W to 2700W but most I've seen are around 2200W)
Anyway one has to think that in 80% ot the Italian houses the standard power is limited to 3300W or 15 amps on the 220V line (that actually, at least here, is 230V since the change from 220V in the 90s).
Also all the houses here, telling again can't hurt, must have a RCD protector (rated at 30mA max leak current) on all the lines since the 70s and on top of that a device that stops the electric flow in case of overdrawing of the line. As I recall I have never seen an installation with fuses in all my life!

So, now, in the USA, what would the standard wattage be?

 

[askomiele]

@dj-gabriele

Don't know how it is in Italy, but here we must have 2 RCD protectors. One for the appliances in wet area's (washer, dishwasher, bathroom) max 300mA and above that 300mA for the whole house. Don't know if this is so in Europe, I guesse not because the Netherlands has other regulations.

 

[dj-gabriele]

@askomiele

Are you sure that they aren't 30mA? 300mA seems a fairly high leak current to me! I tought Europe had harmonized to the same standards, AFAIK France has the same standards as here

In my very apartment we have 2 RCD near the main switch: one for illumination RCD+Switch and one RCD+Switch for all the electric sockets and appliances, all this circuitry is connected to another (main) RCD plus a overcurrent switch near the electric meter on the common electricity board in the basement.

A my parents they have a different configuration:
- each room has its own switch in the circuit box
- big services like the water boiler and heating system and wheel pump have separate switches
- both bathrooms have indipendent RCD of 10mA max leak current (remember that in Italy is common to have appliances like washing machines or room heaters along hair driers and hair straightreners in the toilets)
- all that is then connected to a main RCD (30mA ) and overcurrent device
then at ground floor, in a closed niche facing the street, there is the electricity meter.
Each room has a circuit for 16A except the kitchen that has 2, one for the electric oven.
So, even if each room could virtually draw the full 16 amps and kitchen 32 amps at any given time, the supply is limited to 6,6KW so it is at best 30 amps at 220V.

(BTW: 6,6KW of power is the max you can get in Italy with a standard electric contract!)

 

[mielabor]

My (Netherlands) RCD is 30 mA and I believe that that is the common type here.

I must say that they do like power-hungry appliances in Italy: my vacuum cleaner is 700 W, iron 750 W, water kettle 1600 W, toaster 450 W and all function quite satisfactorily.

 

[toggleswitch2]

I still say most of our plug-in appliances are 1,500w or less!

Although I have seen a hair-dryer at 1,875w.....it's rare!

I'd love to have one of those Italian DeLonghi electric oil-filled 220v radiators. Ours are (only) 1,500w.

600w low
900w medium
1,500w high

But then again my new aparment doesn't HAVE 220v!

 

[toggleswitch2]

Come to think of it, aren't most "international" homes and buidlngs made of concrete with rebar?

Here, in the northeast, private homes are still wooden frame constrtuction.

So we need the MOST fire protection and we appear to have the least..........

 

[askomiele]

@dj-gabriele

Okay my mistake there's one 0 to many so:
al electrical equipment in a wet area is under proctection of a 30mA RCD
the whole instalation is under proctection of a 300mA RCD
if you have extra (I call it semi-wet) equipmnet like: gardenlighting, small electric kitchen boiler (under sink model), a central heating pump, it's recommended to put them under a 30mA RCD but you don't have to...

 

[MrX]

The reason you have a 300mA RCD across the whole system is that you must be on a TT grounding system. In these systems, the power company does not provide a grounding system, so it's only local earth electrodes. The 300mA RCD is there to prevent a major grounding fault causing a fire.

The system used in most installations in Ireland and in the UK is quite similar to those in North America. It's technically called "TN-C". The power company's neutral is grounded regularly along its route back to the transformer and, at a point before the meter (in our version anyway), the building's main ground (earth) connection is bonded to the supply neutral.

This results in a very low earth-loop-impedance, which means that if there's a fault, the breakers trip reliably.

It also eliminates the need for a second RCD at 300mA.

There's no actual 'best' system, TT, TN-C, IT etc all have their advantages and disadvantages. TN-C seems to be generally the preferred approach though.

We use a 30mA RCD (GFCI) on ALL sockets (outlets), water heaters, central heating system components (pumps etc) and fixed appliances. That's been required since 1979, and was common even before it was made compulsory.

10mA RCDs are required for bathroom / shower areas.

The newest regs include a requirement for RCDs on ALL circuits likely to be encountered by a homeowner doing DIY work, so lights, outlets, fixed appliances, cooking appliances etc!

RCD protection's great, I have never had tripping that wasn't for a good reason. The most common reason was a wet iron, or a wet kettle connector!!

I also had an RCD trip when my dishwasher leaked, I'd never have known otherwise

 

[MrX]

As for fires...

From what I have read (stats), there are a higher number of house fires caused by electrical wiring in the US and Canada than in Europe. Simple reason, it's nothing to do with wiring or standards, it's down to what build your house out of.

In most European houses the wiring is buried in plaster. If it does catch fire, it's not quite so likely to destroy the house.

In a US home, if a circuit overloads, it can be catastrophic due to all the wood in the structure.

In any system, unless you replace the breakers / fuses with over-rated ones, there should be no risk of overloading though.

Also, in the UK/Ireland system, there's an individual fuse in each plug, so you can't overload the outlets either. If you go beyond 13amps, the fuse in the plug melts.

So, if you overload a power strip etc, it's not likely to burn your house down.

I think at the very least there should be overload protection in ALL power strips world wide. It's a very simple precaution and they're a very common cause of fire all over the world!

 

[toggleswitch2]

Mr.X Speaks...and I learn.

Thank you!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TN-C-S

 

[toggleswitch2]

EUREKA

"In IT and TN-C networks, residual current devices are far less likely to detect an insulation fault. In a TN-C system, they would also be very vulnerable to unwanted triggering from contact between earth conductors of circuits on different RCDs or with real ground, thus making their use impracticable. Also, RCDs usually isolate the neutral core. Since it is unsafe to do this in a TN-C system, RCDs on TN-C should be wired to only interrupt the live conductor".

AHA-so there is a REASON why we don't have them (RCDs/ GFIs)to the extent seen elsewhere!

And I think it's impproper here to have GFIs "downstream" ftom another GFI.

Must read some more.

Uhm if other systems rely heavily on RCDs/GFI's for safety what was done before they existed? Did they exist decades earlier in commercial settings? (read: very expensive?)

uhm may I ask what a "mA" is? Is that milli-amp?

 

[pturo]

Well, it just all just scares the shit out of me, to be technical.

 

[brisnat81]

Wikipedia is so much fun.

If you read down a bit more around Regulations and Applications, the US uses TN-C-S, just like Europe and AU, so there is no reason why ELCB's, RCD's or GFI's shouldnt work for you like they do here.

mA is a Milliamp or 1/1000th of an Amp.

Earth Leakage systems have been around since the late 60's here, Choice reviewed them in 68. The house Michael grew up in had one covering GPO's only, Not lights, Stove or Hot water and it was installed in 72. It was the first time I'd ever seen one from that early. Most houses here started getting whole house protection by the late 80's, early 90's, but it wasnt until 200X that they became compulsary.

With TN-C-S that we have here, you just aimed to be lucky, if you were using single insulated appliances, Old Drills, powertools vaccums etc, you were supposed to avoid the wet, have them checked regularily and be careful. Thus the push for double insulated power tools. You'd only have a problem in most residential situations, if you were touching the sink or a tap at the same time as touching an appliance with an earth leak. Thus there was a big push here from the 70's to double insulate such items that come into contact with moisture. Anything here that is single insulated is usually high wattage and the assumption seems to be that a failure will be major rather than just a leak and so you'll burn out a fuse or trip a breaker.

The times I've been zapped by a faulty appliance on 240v, I've just been bitten, the zap is hard enough to set the alarm bells ringing, and you approach with caution. Usually ungrounding yourself before prodding anymore should prevent any harm.

My grandmother used to run a block of 4 holiday flats, she used to scrub the flip down sided toasters in the sink with Steel wool soap and water and plug them into dry. She did it for 30 years without incident, as long as she plugged them in away from the sink she never had a problem.

 

[MrX]

Earthing/Grounding systems are a LOT more complex than many

RCDs/GFCIs work perfectly well with TN systems (and TN-C and TN-C-S) and are used extensively with them.

RCDs are more common in some countries because some regulatory authorities saw their potential to save lives and introduced them on a mandatory basis.

You have to remember that in a TN system:

1) The grounded neutral provided by the power company, and the local earthing system in the house are bonded at a single point, in our system that's before the meter in a sealed connection unit. This is done by the power company. There should be no risk of contact with 'real ground' as 'real ground' should be bonded to the supply derived ground anyway, unless the system is not properly designed and implemented.

2) You create what's known as an "equipotential zone", this is where all metal work, including plumbing, is bonded to the same grounding system. It means that there is only one "ground/earth" in the building.

There's actually a hell of a lot more to grounding/earthing theory than many people realise. It's not really a case of the power running to 'earth'. In most cases, the electricity will attempt to complete the circuit back to the grounded transformer it came from via whatever path it can find through the earth. This means it will take the path of least resistance, which could be via underground metal pipes or ducts etc.

You will notice that if they're doing work on any underground pipes e.g. old metal water mains or gas mains, they always interconnect any isolated sections, just in case there is a 'stray neutral' current running through them back to a transformer.

The risk with TN systems is that if you have a major neutral fault in an area that you can end up with live metal work. However, in most systems there is an extensive system of earthing electrodes along the supply neutral (typically every 100 meters or so, as well as at every home connected in many systems). This reduces the risk of neutral problems.

The multiple earth electrode system will also generally pick up "stray neutrals" (currents flowing through the ground) and deliver them safely back to the transformer, rather than letting them run wherever the go which can cause serious issues such as live pipes, ducts, access covers on streets (As happened in NYC electrocuting dogs!)

You will find that in most countries there's a preferred system that has become the accepted norm. However, different methodologies were en vogue at different times, so you may find a mixture of TN-C, TN-C-S, and TT systems in use. Provided that they're implemented properly, they're all very safe. They were used for various combinations of cost, safety and sometimes 'just because' that's the way the system developed.

There are also "IT" systems where the transformer's isolated completely. This is used in Irish and UK bathrooms via the isolating transformer on the shaver socket, and also is commonly used in hospitals where there is a huge risk that a tiny stray current could directly come into contact with internal organs i.e. in an operating theatre situation or, in a situation where equipment is directly connected to a person e.g. cardiac equipment etc.

Some countries also require this system for gas stations (petrol stations).

Unusual arrangements can also be found in industrial situations, particularly highly explosive environments, or where sensitive electronics are being manufactured.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system

 

[iheartmaytag]

If'n you all wants to be scared. When I bought my house which is 73 years old. It had the old knob & tube (or knob and clete) wiring in it. My insurance company demanded that this be changed before we could close on the house.

They estimate that there are thousands of houses in our area, built from the 30's to the 50's that still has this wiring in it.

Scary

 

[MrX]

Not surprising your insurance company was worried!

Looking at that wiring it's not at all surprising that the insurance company was worried.

In old 1920s/30s installations in Ireland you'll typically find cotton covered wires in black metal ducts. It looks more like plumbing than wiring.

The worst type of wiring is the rubber-insulated stuff that was around before the 1960s when PVC was introduced. The insulation material dries out and becomes very brittle and just flakes away.

The other problem we have here is some people used a type of plastic bead insulation to fill cavity walls (2 layers of bricks with a space between them that traps a layer of air, thus insulating the house). This stuff was installed by drilling holes in the walls (outside) and pumping it in.

The problem was that over a long period of time it reacted with PVC insulation on cables which may have been passing through the cavity or, through attic space. They turn into a substance that resembles plasticine or 'Play Doh' !!

In general, people need to be a LOT more careful about what they install around / near wiring and electrical fittings.

One of the most common causes of fire here in Ireland is incorrectly installed recessed halogen lighting.

Homeowners try to install these themselves, and often don't appreciate just how hot they can become if they're not adequately ventilated.

The other common one is where someone decides to put in fibre glass (or similar) insulation blankets into their attic straight over the back of recessed lighting cans!!

 

[rolls_rapide]

Lighting

Whatever happened to the proposed LED lights for the home, that were supposed to be super efficient and not need replacing?

 

[toggleswitch2]

In New York City plastc-sheathed wire was not allowed anywhere, even in residences. until very recently. Our wiring was always metal-sheathed. This type of wire did not have a dedicated grouding /earthing consdutor. Grounding was accomplished via the sheath itself, which due ot the use of the required metal junction and outlet/swith boxes, continuity was "automatic" and assured. (But you know some moron will use a plastic box and kill the whole run of grounding)

The National Electic Code changed requirng a sepaarte grounding conductor, as one finds in plastic-sheathed wiring. NYC's wiring ordinacnes (local laws) where then trumped ans superceded by the naional requirements. So metal sheathed (BX) cable could no longer be used. NYC allowed plastic-sheathed wire in residence and in certial circumstances. WIth all the rats and creatures that like to bite wires, i am not at all amused or comforted.

Later in time BX (metal-shearhed) manufacturers simply included an insulated green grounding condutor in all their pordcution of such wire.

So sadly we now have plastic-sheathed wire. One wants to hang a hook or a spike and fears for their life! I was happier with metal-sheathed wire that did not give off a magnetic force field; it was simply "grounded away".

:-(