Washing Machine Fires

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As for fires...

From what I have read (stats), there are a higher number of house fires caused by electrical wiring in the US and Canada than in Europe. Simple reason, it's nothing to do with wiring or standards, it's down to what build your house out of.

In most European houses the wiring is buried in plaster. If it does catch fire, it's not quite so likely to destroy the house.

In a US home, if a circuit overloads, it can be catastrophic due to all the wood in the structure.

In any system, unless you replace the breakers / fuses with over-rated ones, there should be no risk of overloading though.

Also, in the UK/Ireland system, there's an individual fuse in each plug, so you can't overload the outlets either. If you go beyond 13amps, the fuse in the plug melts.

So, if you overload a power strip etc, it's not likely to burn your house down.

I think at the very least there should be overload protection in ALL power strips world wide. It's a very simple precaution and they're a very common cause of fire all over the world!
 
EUREKA

"In IT and TN-C networks, residual current devices are far less likely to detect an insulation fault. In a TN-C system, they would also be very vulnerable to unwanted triggering from contact between earth conductors of circuits on different RCDs or with real ground, thus making their use impracticable. Also, RCDs usually isolate the neutral core. Since it is unsafe to do this in a TN-C system, RCDs on TN-C should be wired to only interrupt the live conductor".

AHA-so there is a REASON why we don't have them (RCDs/ GFIs)to the extent seen elsewhere!

And I think it's impproper here to have GFIs "downstream" ftom another GFI.

Must read some more.

Uhm if other systems rely heavily on RCDs/GFI's for safety what was done before they existed? Did they exist decades earlier in commercial settings? (read: very expensive?)

uhm may I ask what a "mA" is? Is that milli-amp?
 
Wikipedia is so much fun.

If you read down a bit more around Regulations and Applications, the US uses TN-C-S, just like Europe and AU, so there is no reason why ELCB's, RCD's or GFI's shouldnt work for you like they do here.

mA is a Milliamp or 1/1000th of an Amp.

Earth Leakage systems have been around since the late 60's here, Choice reviewed them in 68. The house Michael grew up in had one covering GPO's only, Not lights, Stove or Hot water and it was installed in 72. It was the first time I'd ever seen one from that early. Most houses here started getting whole house protection by the late 80's, early 90's, but it wasnt until 200X that they became compulsary.

With TN-C-S that we have here, you just aimed to be lucky, if you were using single insulated appliances, Old Drills, powertools vaccums etc, you were supposed to avoid the wet, have them checked regularily and be careful. Thus the push for double insulated power tools. You'd only have a problem in most residential situations, if you were touching the sink or a tap at the same time as touching an appliance with an earth leak. Thus there was a big push here from the 70's to double insulate such items that come into contact with moisture. Anything here that is single insulated is usually high wattage and the assumption seems to be that a failure will be major rather than just a leak and so you'll burn out a fuse or trip a breaker.

The times I've been zapped by a faulty appliance on 240v, I've just been bitten, the zap is hard enough to set the alarm bells ringing, and you approach with caution. Usually ungrounding yourself before prodding anymore should prevent any harm.

My grandmother used to run a block of 4 holiday flats, she used to scrub the flip down sided toasters in the sink with Steel wool soap and water and plug them into dry. She did it for 30 years without incident, as long as she plugged them in away from the sink she never had a problem.
 
Earthing/Grounding systems are a LOT more complex than many

RCDs/GFCIs work perfectly well with TN systems (and TN-C and TN-C-S) and are used extensively with them.

RCDs are more common in some countries because some regulatory authorities saw their potential to save lives and introduced them on a mandatory basis.

You have to remember that in a TN system:

1) The grounded neutral provided by the power company, and the local earthing system in the house are bonded at a single point, in our system that's before the meter in a sealed connection unit. This is done by the power company. There should be no risk of contact with 'real ground' as 'real ground' should be bonded to the supply derived ground anyway, unless the system is not properly designed and implemented.

2) You create what's known as an "equipotential zone", this is where all metal work, including plumbing, is bonded to the same grounding system. It means that there is only one "ground/earth" in the building.

There's actually a hell of a lot more to grounding/earthing theory than many people realise. It's not really a case of the power running to 'earth'. In most cases, the electricity will attempt to complete the circuit back to the grounded transformer it came from via whatever path it can find through the earth. This means it will take the path of least resistance, which could be via underground metal pipes or ducts etc.

You will notice that if they're doing work on any underground pipes e.g. old metal water mains or gas mains, they always interconnect any isolated sections, just in case there is a 'stray neutral' current running through them back to a transformer.

The risk with TN systems is that if you have a major neutral fault in an area that you can end up with live metal work. However, in most systems there is an extensive system of earthing electrodes along the supply neutral (typically every 100 meters or so, as well as at every home connected in many systems). This reduces the risk of neutral problems.

The multiple earth electrode system will also generally pick up "stray neutrals" (currents flowing through the ground) and deliver them safely back to the transformer, rather than letting them run wherever the go which can cause serious issues such as live pipes, ducts, access covers on streets (As happened in NYC electrocuting dogs!)

You will find that in most countries there's a preferred system that has become the accepted norm. However, different methodologies were en vogue at different times, so you may find a mixture of TN-C, TN-C-S, and TT systems in use. Provided that they're implemented properly, they're all very safe. They were used for various combinations of cost, safety and sometimes 'just because' that's the way the system developed.

There are also "IT" systems where the transformer's isolated completely. This is used in Irish and UK bathrooms via the isolating transformer on the shaver socket, and also is commonly used in hospitals where there is a huge risk that a tiny stray current could directly come into contact with internal organs i.e. in an operating theatre situation or, in a situation where equipment is directly connected to a person e.g. cardiac equipment etc.

Some countries also require this system for gas stations (petrol stations).

Unusual arrangements can also be found in industrial situations, particularly highly explosive environments, or where sensitive electronics are being manufactured.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system
 
If'n you all wants to be scared. When I bought my house which is 73 years old. It had the old knob & tube (or knob and clete) wiring in it. My insurance company demanded that this be changed before we could close on the house.

They estimate that there are thousands of houses in our area, built from the 30's to the 50's that still has this wiring in it.

Scary

3-3-2009-15-33-57--Iheartmaytag.jpg
 
Not surprising your insurance company was worried!

Looking at that wiring it's not at all surprising that the insurance company was worried.

In old 1920s/30s installations in Ireland you'll typically find cotton covered wires in black metal ducts. It looks more like plumbing than wiring.

The worst type of wiring is the rubber-insulated stuff that was around before the 1960s when PVC was introduced. The insulation material dries out and becomes very brittle and just flakes away.

The other problem we have here is some people used a type of plastic bead insulation to fill cavity walls (2 layers of bricks with a space between them that traps a layer of air, thus insulating the house). This stuff was installed by drilling holes in the walls (outside) and pumping it in.

The problem was that over a long period of time it reacted with PVC insulation on cables which may have been passing through the cavity or, through attic space. They turn into a substance that resembles plasticine or 'Play Doh' !!

In general, people need to be a LOT more careful about what they install around / near wiring and electrical fittings.

One of the most common causes of fire here in Ireland is incorrectly installed recessed halogen lighting.

Homeowners try to install these themselves, and often don't appreciate just how hot they can become if they're not adequately ventilated.

The other common one is where someone decides to put in fibre glass (or similar) insulation blankets into their attic straight over the back of recessed lighting cans!!
 
Lighting

Whatever happened to the proposed LED lights for the home, that were supposed to be super efficient and not need replacing?
 
In New York City plastc-sheathed wire was not allowed anywhere, even in residences. until very recently. Our wiring was always metal-sheathed. This type of wire did not have a dedicated grouding /earthing consdutor. Grounding was accomplished via the sheath itself, which due ot the use of the required metal junction and outlet/swith boxes, continuity was "automatic" and assured. (But you know some moron will use a plastic box and kill the whole run of grounding)

The National Electic Code changed requirng a sepaarte grounding conductor, as one finds in plastic-sheathed wiring. NYC's wiring ordinacnes (local laws) where then trumped ans superceded by the naional requirements. So metal sheathed (BX) cable could no longer be used. NYC allowed plastic-sheathed wire in residence and in certial circumstances. WIth all the rats and creatures that like to bite wires, i am not at all amused or comforted.

Later in time BX (metal-shearhed) manufacturers simply included an insulated green grounding condutor in all their pordcution of such wire.

So sadly we now have plastic-sheathed wire. One wants to hang a hook or a spike and fears for their life! I was happier with metal-sheathed wire that did not give off a magnetic force field; it was simply "grounded away".

:-(
 
Our wiring seems to have required a ground wire for quite a long time. Going right back to the 1920s. We have had various designs of plugs and sockets over the years, but they've always been grounded either 'schuko' with side-contact earths or 3-pin UK-style.

In common with the UK we phased out a whole mess of different standards in the 1950s/60s and moved towards the current BS1363 system that's used today i.e. 3 rectangular pins and a fused plug.

You will not find anything else anymore, although in the 1960s and 70s it was certainly possible to find older round pin plugs and also old schuko installations in Ireland.

We've used plastic-insulated wiring for quite a long time. Conduit is only required in industrial settings, or where wiring is surface mounted or might be exposed to wear and tear. Other than that, it's has not been required for rather a long time.

The design of the wiring systems however, provided that someone does not change the circuit breakers to higher rated ones, should not allow for any internal wiring to overheat anyway. So, in general it simply should not be a fire hazard.

No circuit will supply enough power to overheat the cables in the building unless someone's hacked the protection devices.

Also, European regulations require that ALL cables are double-insulated. This applies to both wiring systems in homes/offices etc and also to appliance cords. Zip-cord style wiring is not permitted. Although it was quite commonly found on appliance cords in the 1960s and into the 70s.

If you're burying cable in plaster here, it has to be either armoured (metal ground screened) or, protected by a metal duct to protect against drills / nails etc penetrating the cable. However, it's not required that runs of cable under floors / across attics etc be protected to that level, provided they're 'out of harms way'.

Also, if you do drill through a cable, it going to trip a breaker or an RCD (GFCI) on the panel.
 
Think outside the box...

I studied appliance fires in the past - including laundry fires. You all bring up many valid points. Here are a few more to consider...
There are a zillion reasons a washer or dryer catches fire. Electrical failure is a cause to be sure. I've even know of underwire bras to catch laundry appliances on fire.
You're noticing the trends such as front-loaders. Interestingly (but not surprisingly) the fire report discussed is from outside the USA.
Two additional causes of fires to keep in mind. I'm not making these up - the industry knows these causes.
First: Self-extinguishing plastics. The use of self-extinguishing plastic STOPS a lots of fires early in the USA. Guess what? MANY countries around the world DO NOT use self-extinguishing plastic! Once a unit manufactured with standard plastic starts on fire not much will stop it but a fireman. I believe we are safer in the USA due to widespread use of self-extinguishing plastic.
Second: Detergent. And you experts probably know where I'm going. Back in the 1960s and 1970s, detergent had ENZYMES. That detergent was very effective ... at WHAT?? Can you guess? ANSWER: Removal of oils from cotton. After enzymes were removed from detergent in USA, dryer fires went up and up. Nowadays, the USA is going more toward the European trend of using front-loaders. Good idea. However, you must use a different detergent ("high-efficiency") which (as I am told) isn't particularly good at removing oils from cotton. Oil in cotton can spontaneously combust particularly in the dryer. Guess what? Dryer fires (or washer-dryer fires) are AGAIN on the rise in the USA.
Oh yes our laundry appliances are getting more "efficient" in the USA.. but are our clothes getting CLEANER? Personally I think not.
 
Again the same comments I did a few months ago:

1) NEVER leave your machines running alone. Of course you don´t need to put a chair in front of it and watch it as the Laundry Channel
2) Electrolux always used self extinguishing plastics BUT it´s name is absolutelly wrong. The proper definition should be "FIRE RETARDANT PLASTICS". tHEY HELP a lot, BUT the plastic does not work as a fire extinguisher or fire sprinkler.
3) smoke alarm? It really helps a lot!
4) Fire sprinklers... why not? Ok it´s very expensive to install a fire sprinkler system but there´s something clever and unexpensive everyone could do. install a T connector on the cold water fill valve or on the faucet and a fire sprinkler head on it. If a fire starts, it won´t help too much as an expensive fire sprinkler system, but can give you precious extra seconds or even minutes to react.
5) Always keep a fire extinguisher close to the laundry room.
6) NEVER, NEVER, NEVER install a washing mashine without a proper wires, outlets, circuit breakers, GFI, etc.
7) If you want to do something even better, ask to the electrician to install an emergency/stop button. (In my case, the emergency button is an ordinary (and very cheap) fire alarm pull station.)
8) always respect the oldest safety rule. Never put in the machines clothes that were previously treated with solvents and other inflamable products.
9) ALWAYS keep your machine clean. Most people ignore the monthly cleaning cycles pouring lots of chlorine bleach directly in the drum and running the longest cycle or a special sanitization cycle.
10) Once or twice a year (according to machine´s age) check ALL internal wires and other electrical parts.

If it is a washer-dryer, pay atention to the load size. Most of the washer-dryer combos can dry only 50% of the wash capacity.
Never dry more than 5 loads sequentialy in a washer-dryer combo. In some models, lint can built up between the tub and the drum. Run a wash or a rinse cycle to remove the lint.
 
All European machines use fire-retardant plastics, also the plastics have to be low-fume in the event of a serious fire so that they do not produce poisonous gasses when exposed to extreme heat. It's a requirement under European Law and a requirement for CE mark approval.

US regulations around plastic in appliances would be pretty much identical.

As the previous poster said, fire retardant plastics just don't burn quite so easily. They are not fully fire proof.

European detergents almost always have enzymes unless specifically different, in fact, most of them have more enzymes than US detergents as front loaders are optimised for a 'bio cycle' that uses enzymes to break down tough stains. Typically : Protese, amylase, lipase and cellulase. Oils are primarily broken down by surfactants, not enzymes.

Dryer fires are typically caused by lint, not oils or waxy build up.

The key to avoiding such fires is proper machine maintenance, i.e. clean out the filters and regularly clean the heat exchange in condenser dryers by washing it with a high pressure shower once a month.

There is no upward trend in washing machine / appliance fires. I have statistics for Ireland and they're actually quite rare causes of house fires.

In order of cause, most fires here are caused by : decorative / scented candles, cooking chips (french fries), unattended cooking appliances, cigerettes, open fires, covered heating appliances.

Washing machines, dryers and dishwashers are actually very low down the list.

Electrical fires are mostly caused by recessed light fittings, lamps with powerful bulbs and small shades and over-loaded circuits (DIY jobs bypassing fuses/breakers).
 
To give you an idea of European regs:

Any appliance that uses high currents (above 0.2Amps) requires that there are fire retardant plastics used throughout but plastics used in switches and electrical components must be able to withstand 750°C [1382°F] without any ignition.
 
Some statistics from the Irish Fire Services

2006 Stats (Latests I could find)

Key statistics:

Total number of call outs : 33460
Malicious causes : 36%
Unknown causes: 28.8%
Chimney, Soot, Ash and Flu Fires : 16.42%
Other suspected causes : 7%
Matches, Cigarettes, Lighters : 1.51%
Illegal burning of rubbish / garden Waste (out of control): 2.8%
Cooking and heating : 2.81%
Electrical Appliances : 2%
Electrical Installations : 1%
Smoking materials : 0.9%
Using fuels to kindle fires / BBQs : less than .01%
Explosions : less than .0001%

In the big scheme of things, I'd say worry more about bored teenagers with cans of petrol (gas), crazy ex partners, and chimneys/flus than your washing machine :)
 
Plastic Fires

mrx wrote: "US regulations around plastic in appliances would be pretty much identical."

I remember Garrard stopped selling record changers in the US because derlin plastic was no longer allowed in electric appliances here. Derlin was the secret to Garrard's trip mechanism.

Ken D.
 
I don´t know how they do it today but...

A few years ago, E-lux used to intentionally apply a coating in all fire retardant plastics to produce small amounts of smoke, to make the fire detectable by the smoke detectors or by it´s smell.

Note that this coating only produces very small amount of smoke during the beginning of the fire.
I´m not sure about the other manufacturers, but I´m almost sure all of them do the same.
 
~Dryer fires are typically caused by lint, not oils or waxy build up.

But don't the afforemntioned oils and waxes act like glue causing a lint buildup?
 
Ken,

I've never heard of Garrard, I did a little googling and they were sold to to Gradiente Electronica of Brazil in 1979.

There are differences in the standards, but there are equally examples of US products that cannot be imported into the EU. For example, I cannot use US electrical equipment even in a studio or laboratory context which has cables that do not comply with European regulations. Many US appliance cords would be considered a serious fire hazard here, as they're singly insulated. There are other minor technical issues that also cause non-compliance with law here.

The EU RoHS directive bans a whole load of hazardous chemicals and metals which are present in US equipment, but cannot be used here, including various solders used in electronic and electrical components.

There's also a whole range of cosmetic products ingredients that are acceptable in the states and banned here as they're known carcinogens.

The general rules applying to fire safety are very strict and very similar on either side of the Atlantic, even if the specific implementation may sometimes differ slightly.

An example of a cosmetics product recall notice:

Here's a list of developed countries, for which stats are available, by fire deaths per 100,000

Rank in order:
Singapore : 0.12
Switzerland : 0.5
Austria : 0.57
Spain : 0.65
Australia : 0.66
Italy : 0.68 (2001-2003)
Netherlands : 0.68 (1994-1996)
Germany : 0.71
New Zealand : 0.82
UK : 0.93
France : 1.04
Ireland : 1.07
Slovenia 1.09 (2002-2004)
Sweden : 1.11
Canada : 1.27
Greece : 1.31
Belgium : 1.34 (1995-1997)
Czech Republic : 1.39
Poland : 1.39
USA : 1.41
Denmark : 1.60
Japan : 1.72
Finland : 1.91
Hungary : 1.98

Source:
The Geneva Association - Risk & Insurance Economics - International Association for the Study of Insurance Economics
World Fire Statistics

What's really worrying is that of all the electrical products withdrawn / recalled in the EU for breech of EU regs 58%+ were from China.

Also, if you look on the product withdrawal notifications below, there were umpteen kids products put on the market here before xmas which contained lead! All of which were from china.

Cosmetic product withdrawal notice below:

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/N...t_Recalls/Clear_N_Smooth_cream_withdrawn.html
 
Garrard

I recognise the name.

My parents bought a new radiogram circa 1973. The turntable was Garrard: an autochanger, with 78, 45, 33, 16 rpm speeds; 7, 10 and 12 inch record sizes; switchable 78/LP stylus, spring-loaded suspension.

Mother always thought it looked like a coffin on legs.

My sister and I got our mitts upon it and broke the lift & return mechanism, but Mum's brother apparently fixed it.
 
Electrical codes and electrical fires

Some thoughts in response to various above:

UL listing for GFIs in the U.S. only allows 5ma types. For the relatively long branch circuits we sometimes see here, that's not a lot of margin above natural leakage, depending on the circuit configuration. So that's one reason we worry about nusiance trips. Admittedly, some of this is overblown; some communitities still have code provisions that go back to the early 1970s, when the technology wasn't very good and nusiance trips were a significant problem. (In fact, there was a special rule for swimming pool circuits that allowed 15ma GFIs because 5ma types tripped so often as to make the circuit useless.) Very sensitive GFIs can be fooled by a variety of non-hazardous events. They have gotten a lot better, especially in the last ten years, about not being tripped by reactive-load surges. But solar events and RF being picked up by the circuit conductors can still fool them now and then. Having said that, local code where I live now allows a GFI on any circuit, although inspectors still discourage installation on refrigerator/freezer circuits.

I'll have to go dig up the numbers again, but IIRC the most common cause of electrical-related house fires in the U.S. is faulty appliances, followed by obsolete wiring and then lightning strikes. From observations where I live, fires in houses built after 1970 or so are very rare. Most of the electrical fires seem to be in houses built before that, or in mobile homes (house trailers). And actually, I think all electrical fires are small in number compared to careless smoking, and cooking fires.

Mister X, your description of the grounding system is pretty much true of the U.S., except that the earth bonding is connected on the customer's side of the meter, in the main panel. Practically, there's little difference since the neutral bypasses the meter socket.

The problem with the single-insulated, metal-cased hand tools was not really with the basic concept. The basic problem was that back when, there were so many houses in the U.S which had wiring systems with no grounded conductor, or maybe having ground through conduit but only 2-prong outlets (or worse, only light bulb sockets). People would buy those 3-prong-to-2-prong adaptors, but then not bother to hook up the ground provision. And then a fault would occur and they'd get zapped. That's not to say that double-insulated appliances aren't safer, but the old way was not terribly unsafe when it was connected properly. This is all assuming that the appliance in question actually had a grounded plug. Not all of them did; some, lamps in particular, used the neutral as ground and relied on the outlet being polarized properly. That was a terrible idea.

Toggle, that was an interesting bit about the NYC codes and BX cable. Back when I was a teenager and my dad was teaching me basic wiring, he taught me that the flexible greenfield-type conduit is a poor conductor and that most codes, even back then, didn't allow it as the grounding conductor. I don't ever remember seeing pre-wired BX cable that didn't include a green wire.

Rolls: There's LED lamps available in the U.S. now. At the moment, they are being marketed mostly towards office/commercial installations, but you can get them. I've been meaning to get a couple and try them out.
 
~Oh yes our laundry appliances are getting more "efficient" in the USA. But are our clothes getting CLEANER? Personally I think not.

Efficiency by definition means doing a job with less resouces. If you are not getting the same job done (clothes or dishes are still dirty) with less resources, it is not an efficiency gain. It's a mind-f***.
 
~My dad was teaching me basic wiring, he taught me that the flexible greenfield-type conduit is a poor conductor and that most codes, even back then, didn't allow it as the grounding conductor.

It may be poor but it works!

Without looking, I had plugged a blow-dryer into the bathroom fixture above the bathroom sink. (Remember those outlets?). One prong was in the outlet, the other was making contact with the brass fixture itself (somehow the contour of the metal allowed a snug fit against the side of the plug's prong. The blow dryer ran perfectly! Did not notice it until I looked up!

So interestingly, building in NYC that were from the 1800 (or before) that were electricifed later (but before 1946) have better grounding [due to the type of wire used] than my house on Long Island that was built in 1946 using Romex(fabric or cloth-covered). At that time there was NO provision for grounding the cables, oulets or lights. Today in that home the original 10 lines (I added 30 more) are still not grounded....nor can they be using existing wiring).
 
My Neptune washer/dryer set draws 10 watts even when off (to power the electronics, I guess). So I replaced the 110 volt outlet with a switched outlet. Into the outlet went a small 3-way surge protector. The washer and dryer (gas) plug into that. The Neptune remembers its settings so there is no problem removing power to it when it's not in use. It comes back up instantly with all its settings intact.

This arrangement would also allow me to leave the washer door ajar to minimize mold/odors, but the washer has never had a mold/odor problem so I don't bother with that.
 

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