norgeway
Well-known member
Since im on a Westinghouse kick, I wondered if anyone has ever had a Westinghouse stereo...Im on the hunt for one, but the only ones I have found are el cheapo BOL models, I know they made some nice units.
Westinghouse Stereo/Hi Fi...
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arbilab
Well-known member
One must be somewhat astute to buy anything from that era that is 'actually' hi-fi. Almost all will turn your records into dust with 5+ gram tracking forces, and almost all are low power/high distortion single-ended amplifiers.
The collectors know which are which and the 'good' ones will be priced quite high whether they are in operating condition or not (requiring much electromechanical rebuilding).
I know that sounds bleak but frankly as a hi-fi fanatic since 1962, a 1950 Westinghouse console radio with phono input sounds better than anything they built in the 'stereo' era. You'd still have to solve the turntable/arm/cartridge problem and you'd need 2 for stereo.
Far as 'major manufacturers' only Magnavox and Zenith-- maybe TOL RCA-- sold anything even approaching acceptable by today's standards, and that's AFTER replacing the turntable and cartridge. And matching the gain difference between magnetic and crystal pickups.
Practically, antique/vintage commercial record players can only be made listenable with a great deal of skilled restoration.
The collectors know which are which and the 'good' ones will be priced quite high whether they are in operating condition or not (requiring much electromechanical rebuilding).
I know that sounds bleak but frankly as a hi-fi fanatic since 1962, a 1950 Westinghouse console radio with phono input sounds better than anything they built in the 'stereo' era. You'd still have to solve the turntable/arm/cartridge problem and you'd need 2 for stereo.
Far as 'major manufacturers' only Magnavox and Zenith-- maybe TOL RCA-- sold anything even approaching acceptable by today's standards, and that's AFTER replacing the turntable and cartridge. And matching the gain difference between magnetic and crystal pickups.
Practically, antique/vintage commercial record players can only be made listenable with a great deal of skilled restoration.
classiccaprice
Well-known member
There was one at the local restore on the 10th. It was a nice looking piece. With all the snow recently it might still be there.
60s Westinghouse Electronics
Oh Hans, you might be taking this WH thing too far, I like you loved WH design and styling as a kid and now, and I used to work on a lot of TVs and Stereos when younger. And from my experience and that of a few older guys that were in the TV-Stereo repair business I quickly found out that WH was not a great builder of this type of equipment [ to put it nicely ], but it sure is pretty, LOL.
Oh Hans, you might be taking this WH thing too far, I like you loved WH design and styling as a kid and now, and I used to work on a lot of TVs and Stereos when younger. And from my experience and that of a few older guys that were in the TV-Stereo repair business I quickly found out that WH was not a great builder of this type of equipment [ to put it nicely ], but it sure is pretty, LOL.
actually your assesment of Westinghouse is not entirely true, arbilab. I have an early sixties Westinghouse Hi Fi stereo. The changer is a Voice of Music, which is much, much better on records than Monarch/BSR. The amp is a single end 7591, which about ten watts. The speakers are 8 inch and 4 inch. The only thing I didn't like was that the radio was FM/AM/ then AMFM combined. It sent one side of a stereo signal through AM and the other side of the stereo signal through the FM (right before true FM stereo)
The sound, while not world class, was very decent due to the single end amp.
As for other stereos from that time frame, my Packard Bell stereo from 1963, uses 6BQ5 x2 in the output for 18 watts, with the correct speakers, damn near outperforms most of the Home Theater in A Box setups out there, with better bass that shakes the house on movie soundtracks, along with full range sound. Apparently the amp was designed by. Bob Carver, and the amp alone is high demand.
The Collaro changers in Magnavoxes were considered the best ever built, and were rated on the highest on record wear, meaning they did not tear up records. Voice of Music was right behind them. I have a fully restored, properly adjusted VOM from the 66. Record wear on it is non existent, and my second turntable is a Technics SL1200 with a Signet MR5b cart from 1988, so any noise, etc, would show up immediately.
Also, some GE's had Garrard. again, a high quality changer if properly adjusted, does well with record wear.
The sound, while not world class, was very decent due to the single end amp.
As for other stereos from that time frame, my Packard Bell stereo from 1963, uses 6BQ5 x2 in the output for 18 watts, with the correct speakers, damn near outperforms most of the Home Theater in A Box setups out there, with better bass that shakes the house on movie soundtracks, along with full range sound. Apparently the amp was designed by. Bob Carver, and the amp alone is high demand.
The Collaro changers in Magnavoxes were considered the best ever built, and were rated on the highest on record wear, meaning they did not tear up records. Voice of Music was right behind them. I have a fully restored, properly adjusted VOM from the 66. Record wear on it is non existent, and my second turntable is a Technics SL1200 with a Signet MR5b cart from 1988, so any noise, etc, would show up immediately.
Also, some GE's had Garrard. again, a high quality changer if properly adjusted, does well with record wear.
firedome
Well-known member
That's interesting about Bob Carver...
didn't know he'd worked for Packard Bell. He bought a Sears Silvertone amp and tuner/preamp out of a mid-level console from me 4-5 yrs ago for his "museum", I knew him through my audio magazine writing. I wonder if P-B made the electronics for Sears, seems a likely reason why he'd want one, at the time I was flabbergasted that he did, given his high-end design pedigree, but the P-B connection makes sense.
Most of the Single-Ended output amp consoles were found in low to mid-level models,
I had a small Zenith not long ago with 2 x 6BQ5s, however typically the better ones were Push-Pull designs with larger, usually still open-frame output transformers, mostly with 6V6, or 6BQ5 (EL-84) output tubes, sometimes with 7591, 6973, 6GW8 or others. Oddly, I've never seen a 6L6GC Stereo console.
didn't know he'd worked for Packard Bell. He bought a Sears Silvertone amp and tuner/preamp out of a mid-level console from me 4-5 yrs ago for his "museum", I knew him through my audio magazine writing. I wonder if P-B made the electronics for Sears, seems a likely reason why he'd want one, at the time I was flabbergasted that he did, given his high-end design pedigree, but the P-B connection makes sense.
Most of the Single-Ended output amp consoles were found in low to mid-level models,
I had a small Zenith not long ago with 2 x 6BQ5s, however typically the better ones were Push-Pull designs with larger, usually still open-frame output transformers, mostly with 6V6, or 6BQ5 (EL-84) output tubes, sometimes with 7591, 6973, 6GW8 or others. Oddly, I've never seen a 6L6GC Stereo console.
norgeway
Well-known member
I use ONLY
Vintage stereo stuff now, a 65 GE console in the living room, a 62 Phonola consolette in the bed room, and a 64 KLH with Lafyette tuner also in the bedroom,I have probably 1500 albums that I play , usually something every day,Westinghouse called their units Stereo Fidelity Consoles in the late 50s,The above pictured unit looks nice, looks to be early 60s..I decided to switch the main focus of my collecting to Westinghouse, not because I think it was the best all around product ever,just because I like it,really always have ,I still think the very best vintage stereo is a 3 channel Motorola..As for record wear from vintage units...I don't worry about it, because I keep a good needle in all my units, the KLH has a Garrard changer, the Phonola a VM and I don't know whats in the GE butI do know it has about as light a pressure on the tone arm as a Zenith of that age, which is pretty light..I don't have a atual Hi Fi unit, all mine are stereo.
Vintage stereo stuff now, a 65 GE console in the living room, a 62 Phonola consolette in the bed room, and a 64 KLH with Lafyette tuner also in the bedroom,I have probably 1500 albums that I play , usually something every day,Westinghouse called their units Stereo Fidelity Consoles in the late 50s,The above pictured unit looks nice, looks to be early 60s..I decided to switch the main focus of my collecting to Westinghouse, not because I think it was the best all around product ever,just because I like it,really always have ,I still think the very best vintage stereo is a 3 channel Motorola..As for record wear from vintage units...I don't worry about it, because I keep a good needle in all my units, the KLH has a Garrard changer, the Phonola a VM and I don't know whats in the GE butI do know it has about as light a pressure on the tone arm as a Zenith of that age, which is pretty light..I don't have a atual Hi Fi unit, all mine are stereo.
classiccaprice
Well-known member
If you are interested the console is at the Restore on Warwilck Blvd, in Newporrt News. Perhaps you could work something out with them.
norgeway
Well-known member
Thanks..
If the weather would cooperate...and if it was my weekend off, I might make a road trip to see that one, I don't really agree with the statement that most old Hi Fi stereo consoles need work to be useful, I have had a Bose system....which I promptly sold and went back to a console, Im not interested in blasting power, im interested in warm rich tone that you get only in a wood cabinet with a tube amp, just as a modern electronic organ sounds tinny compared to a Hammond with a tube type Leslie speaker....but then, truthfully, I don't like anything made after 1970 or so..LOL..But what I despise most about newer audio stuff is those damnable digital tuners,give me a dial anyday!
If the weather would cooperate...and if it was my weekend off, I might make a road trip to see that one, I don't really agree with the statement that most old Hi Fi stereo consoles need work to be useful, I have had a Bose system....which I promptly sold and went back to a console, Im not interested in blasting power, im interested in warm rich tone that you get only in a wood cabinet with a tube amp, just as a modern electronic organ sounds tinny compared to a Hammond with a tube type Leslie speaker....but then, truthfully, I don't like anything made after 1970 or so..LOL..But what I despise most about newer audio stuff is those damnable digital tuners,give me a dial anyday!
I think General Electric bought Glaser-Steers and used them for their own doctored up changers. I think the first ones after VM and Garrard were fairly decent, then when they started cheapening everything, forget it.
Get your Westinghouse stereo console. Surely you have room for it, okay it's not tube or the creme de la creme of stereodom, but if it's functioning as designed it would have to have a respectable sound to it. I saw new Westinghouse consoles in the showroom of one dealer here during the late '60's. Their changer had a tonearm that the salesman said tracked at the weight of two aspirin tablets. The sets looked and sounded good, at least to me they did. (check out this Westinghouse armoire)
Get your Westinghouse stereo console. Surely you have room for it, okay it's not tube or the creme de la creme of stereodom, but if it's functioning as designed it would have to have a respectable sound to it. I saw new Westinghouse consoles in the showroom of one dealer here during the late '60's. Their changer had a tonearm that the salesman said tracked at the weight of two aspirin tablets. The sets looked and sounded good, at least to me they did. (check out this Westinghouse armoire)
Oh look!
arbilab
Well-known member
Above, GE did buy Glaser-Steers. But aside from its ruggedness and the novelty of mixing speeds and turntable brake and same-speed change cycle regardless what play speed, Glaser-Steers was a clunker along the lines of VM/BSR. A rumblefest. Bearings? We don't need no stinkin bearings.
NONE of the nostalgic favorites above could support a high-compliance cartridge, except the Garrard that came with KLH, and just barely (Shure M44). Pardon my audio snobbery and slight editorial exaggeration, but I'd no more play my 50yo vinyl on a VM or G-S than I'd put my hand in a garbage disposer while it's running.
I built 5 'big iron' 6BQ5 Williamson amps. Nothing at all wrong with those and they remain sought after today. But I don't *think* that's what Westinghouse/GE/RCA were building, and only in TOL Magnavox/Zenith. Why I say you have to know exactly what's in it to know what it's worth.
And you STILL have to replace the VM/GS/BSR/Collaro with something that supports AT LEAST M44 or equivalent. M44 is at the low end of 'acceptable' compliance. It won't really PLAY records but it won't destroy them either.
Trust me, I've been qualifying audio components since 1958 with golden Aspergers ears.
NONE of the nostalgic favorites above could support a high-compliance cartridge, except the Garrard that came with KLH, and just barely (Shure M44). Pardon my audio snobbery and slight editorial exaggeration, but I'd no more play my 50yo vinyl on a VM or G-S than I'd put my hand in a garbage disposer while it's running.
I built 5 'big iron' 6BQ5 Williamson amps. Nothing at all wrong with those and they remain sought after today. But I don't *think* that's what Westinghouse/GE/RCA were building, and only in TOL Magnavox/Zenith. Why I say you have to know exactly what's in it to know what it's worth.
And you STILL have to replace the VM/GS/BSR/Collaro with something that supports AT LEAST M44 or equivalent. M44 is at the low end of 'acceptable' compliance. It won't really PLAY records but it won't destroy them either.
Trust me, I've been qualifying audio components since 1958 with golden Aspergers ears.
HH Scott amps liked the "big Iron" Approach!They had the best bass response of any amp I used that had 6BQ5 or 7189 tubes in the output stage.Scott even used BIGGER output transformers in their 60W 6550Amps!Real sound good monsters!That was a problem with many other amp builders their transformers were too small and overloaded,saturated on LF program material.When I was more serious about Hi-Fi-used manual single play TT's.Still have my Rega and Grace cartridge.Use it with my Onkyo receiver.My "MAC" amps need caps and haven't found the ones they need.Frustrating.Want to use them again.
I can remember a GS TT at a music class in Jr High-was funky to watch the thing cycle records.Put it this way------DJ's are HARDER on records than ANY changer!!!If you work in a radio station when records were played on air-you will see-and the jocks were hard on TT's styli too-esp when "scratching"!The records that survived best at radio stations were those used in Easy Listening or classical stations-and ones that had Seeburg jukebox changers used in radio station program automation systems.The Seeburg changers used in radio stations-two types-one for 45's and the other for LP.
I can remember a GS TT at a music class in Jr High-was funky to watch the thing cycle records.Put it this way------DJ's are HARDER on records than ANY changer!!!If you work in a radio station when records were played on air-you will see-and the jocks were hard on TT's styli too-esp when "scratching"!The records that survived best at radio stations were those used in Easy Listening or classical stations-and ones that had Seeburg jukebox changers used in radio station program automation systems.The Seeburg changers used in radio stations-two types-one for 45's and the other for LP.
@arbilab,
Some of the early Collaro/Magnavox have been succesfully switched over to magnetic carts.
But I think you're missing the big picture. Norgeway really isn't interested in concert level sound quality, he wants an original Westie as it sits. Also, certain VM can support magnetic carts. It's an option on the VoM website.
DJ's use specfic needles that are designed for scratching. The bigger problem is cue burn, where the first second or so is worn out because the jock places the needle on the record, and hand spins the turntable to cue the record.
I have some on air recordings of a pop station from the 80's, when they are running pretty much all vinyl, and the sound was clean, no pops, nothing.
Some of the early Collaro/Magnavox have been succesfully switched over to magnetic carts.
But I think you're missing the big picture. Norgeway really isn't interested in concert level sound quality, he wants an original Westie as it sits. Also, certain VM can support magnetic carts. It's an option on the VoM website.
DJ's use specfic needles that are designed for scratching. The bigger problem is cue burn, where the first second or so is worn out because the jock places the needle on the record, and hand spins the turntable to cue the record.
I have some on air recordings of a pop station from the 80's, when they are running pretty much all vinyl, and the sound was clean, no pops, nothing.
Hans - Westinghouse made a number of really nice looking consoles in both hi-fi and stereo models. I'm sure you will find one!! I've seen a few over the years, and for the most part they all had V-M changers in them. I have a Westinghouse portable record player that has a BSR changer in it. The next time I'm at the warehouse I'll see if I can't dig it up.
I think high-end audio is fascinating, although I don't own any such equipment. Like you, I have lots of records that I enjoy playing everyday. I like to stack four or five on a changer and let them play while I'm cooking, reading, working around the house, etc. I have a record player in the living room, the family room, the bedroom and the den, so I'm never without music! When we entertain at home, which is often, we have all the record players going!
Here's what I currently have in service - these are all hi-fi units...no stereos:
A Magnavox from about '55 with an English Collero record changer. Has a wonderful sound - the changer is fairly quiet.
A Steelman from the late 50's - it has a V-M changer and is my workhorse. This gets played almost daily. I like that the volume/tone controls are on the outside of the cabinet.
A Columbia table top unit from '54. This has the old V-M "Tri-O-Matic" changer in it, which is a little noisy, but this is probably my favorite machine because of it's incredible compact design and rich sound.
I think high-end audio is fascinating, although I don't own any such equipment. Like you, I have lots of records that I enjoy playing everyday. I like to stack four or five on a changer and let them play while I'm cooking, reading, working around the house, etc. I have a record player in the living room, the family room, the bedroom and the den, so I'm never without music! When we entertain at home, which is often, we have all the record players going!
Here's what I currently have in service - these are all hi-fi units...no stereos:
A Magnavox from about '55 with an English Collero record changer. Has a wonderful sound - the changer is fairly quiet.
A Steelman from the late 50's - it has a V-M changer and is my workhorse. This gets played almost daily. I like that the volume/tone controls are on the outside of the cabinet.
A Columbia table top unit from '54. This has the old V-M "Tri-O-Matic" changer in it, which is a little noisy, but this is probably my favorite machine because of it's incredible compact design and rich sound.
firedome
Well-known member
those are some nice HiFi-s
there Kevin! That Steelman is quite unusual, I've never sen one. HiFi (non-stereo) is fun, and it's great for listening while working around the house or walking around. We have a Bogen DB-130 mono amp (2 x 6AV5 TV horiz amp output tubes!) in the LR feeding 2 JBL L-36s, so mono sound out of 2 speakers... who has time so sit down just to listen anyhow?
there Kevin! That Steelman is quite unusual, I've never sen one. HiFi (non-stereo) is fun, and it's great for listening while working around the house or walking around. We have a Bogen DB-130 mono amp (2 x 6AV5 TV horiz amp output tubes!) in the LR feeding 2 JBL L-36s, so mono sound out of 2 speakers... who has time so sit down just to listen anyhow?
A question: Most of the vintage changers are shown with what appear to be original cartridges. Where on earth do you find needles / stylii for them?
Personal bias: I grew up with a circa '58 or '59 Magnavox console so the Collaro changers, with their elaborate record-changing procedure, are my favorite.
Update: Here's a photo (found via Google) that matches the changer in our Magnavox console: Tall speed and changer controls; white rubber pad on turntable, no record-sensing bar (often seen on circa '56-'57 changers). The info with the photo said this was a '59.[this post was last edited: 2/26/2015-14:03]
Personal bias: I grew up with a circa '58 or '59 Magnavox console so the Collaro changers, with their elaborate record-changing procedure, are my favorite.
Update: Here's a photo (found via Google) that matches the changer in our Magnavox console: Tall speed and changer controls; white rubber pad on turntable, no record-sensing bar (often seen on circa '56-'57 changers). The info with the photo said this was a '59.[this post was last edited: 2/26/2015-14:03]
A Collaro record changer will track 3 grams without breaking a sweat. The Collaro's velocity trip mechanism is an excellent design. Note that Magnavox began advertising tracking at 1/10 ounce when they switched to the Electro Voice 132 ceramic cartridge in the early 1960s. These machines are very easy on records, even styrene 45s hold up well on them.
The higher-end VM changers used by Zenith with the "2G" tonearm are also very easy on records and track at forces similar to the Collaros.
The GE built record changers are indeed a dumbed-down Glaser Steers design, and the motors are noisy, but the tonearms aren't bad and the GE brand ceramic cartridges have very good complaince.
The problem we have today is that all the original manufacturers of the better ceramic cartridges from the 1960s no longer make them, and the quality of the imported knock-offs is hit & miss.
A good source for ceramic cartridges and their styli today is Gary at thevoiceofmusic.com . He also offers good quality idler wheel rebuilding. See link below.
Ken D.[this post was last edited: 2/26/2015-11:40]
The higher-end VM changers used by Zenith with the "2G" tonearm are also very easy on records and track at forces similar to the Collaros.
The GE built record changers are indeed a dumbed-down Glaser Steers design, and the motors are noisy, but the tonearms aren't bad and the GE brand ceramic cartridges have very good complaince.
The problem we have today is that all the original manufacturers of the better ceramic cartridges from the 1960s no longer make them, and the quality of the imported knock-offs is hit & miss.
A good source for ceramic cartridges and their styli today is Gary at thevoiceofmusic.com . He also offers good quality idler wheel rebuilding. See link below.
Ken D.[this post was last edited: 2/26/2015-11:40]
