What did I do wrong?

[roto204]

Hi everyone!!

Thank you for all your help to date on my '61 Kenmore. I'm really grateful for all the pointers and advice--it's gotten me through hell and back, and all the way to reassembly. Thank you so much!

We have reached yet another impasse, though. It agitates fine, and does its neutral drain, but it will not spin in any cycle.

The motor gets unbelievably loud, and the wig-wag pops the cam bar out, and the centershaft pops up a little, but nothing happens and nothing moves basket-wise. Not a twitch.

I'm hoping there's an adjustment that will remedy the situation, and preferably one that doesn't involve pulling the tranny again, but since this machine has fought me every step of the way (and yes, I'm getting pics for later), I wouldn't be surprised. (I don't think it wanted to be rescued. I am convinced it wanted to die.)

Please let me know what you think--and thank you in advance.

:-D

--Nate

 

[fixerman]

Did you put the little spring and clip on top of the spin clutch actuator plate. Another member put it underneath and had problems. Does the tub turn freely by hand? Can you turn the belt in the spin direction freely? Check these things get back to us.

 

[roto204]

Minor adjustment?

Hi Fixerman!

Further investigation showed that, while the clip and spring were in place, things were out of whack. When, after poring over the situation for quite a while with Roger, and completely redefining our understanding of how the mechanism works, he noted that the threaded nut provides a means of adjusting the clutch plate. Figuring (after thinking a lot more) that it might be too high up the threaded shaft, we tried cranking it down--now it spins marvelously!

I do have a further question, though...

How do you "fine-tune" the threaded nut? Is there a place at which things are in equilibrium? I'm guessing that if it's too far down, it will try to spin the basket even when the agitator is engaged. Maybe back it off bit by bit until it stops misbehaving?

Thank you again for your help!

--Nate

 

[fixerman]

Unplug the machine and turn the belt several times so the cam bars are have reached the end of their travel. Turn the adjusting nut until the clutch pad just touches the spin pulley. Then turn the nut to increase the gap between the pad and pulley. the distance between the spin pulley and the clutch pad should be about the thickness of a dime, more or less.

 

[roto204]

Thanks very much, I'll give that a try and let you know how it goes.

I really appreciate all your time and help--have a great evening!

--Nate

 

[roto204]

The plot thickens...

Okay, so after tweaking and adjusting the threaded nut so that the space between clutch plate and pulley is about that of a dime (and doing this after twirling the belt with the power off to reset the cam bars), Ross and I gave the '61 a go.

It agitates beautifully and promptly gives up when it goes to spin.

With the basket empty, the machine spins with gusto. Put some wet clothes in there (or, God forbid, let the spray rinse wet them down), and the machine starts to spin up slowly, shrugs, and gives up, letting things slow to a standstill.

At first, I thought it might be the belt tension, so I tightened up things, and that improved the matter a little, but not enough to keep it going. I tried adjusting the threaded nut some more, but obviously I'm not working magic.

I doubt the motor's too tired, but I wonder if all the oil and ick that leaked when the tranny was having fits may have gotten between that clutch plate and pulley, and if it's fighting some oil residue. Perhaps I should take some brake cleaner and fire away?

I'm headed off to Pennsylvania for a week, and will resume work on the Kenmore then. Until then, I'm contemplating getting a nice foam-rubber grip sledgehammer at the Home Depot. It's getting frustrating to have a machine that fights you e-v-e-r-y step of the way!

Thanks for your help in advance--

Embittered Nate >:-|

 

[fixerman]

I understand your frustration. When I was rebuilding them recualarily I remember the same thing hapening, or not hapening to me. Very frustrating to do all the work and have things not work correctly. I would venture to say most everyone here who has worked on a number of machines probably had similar frustrations. Don't give up. They are relatively simple machines and I'm sure with some patience your problems will be ironed out.

Thinking back to my rebuilding days I recall that when this happened it usually had to do with the spin bearings being too tight or the spin tube had some corrosion on it causing binding. I recall you had trouble getting the spin tube out indicating a tight fit. Did you replace the spin tube or bearings? If you did not, Did you make sure the spn tube was free of any corrosion? Sometimes the spin tube will develop a ridge of corrosion just above the top spin bearing. It may spin normally until you put weight in the tub, the the spin tube lowers slightly and thiscorrosion ring lowers into the bearing area cousing a bind.

Did you use the original tee bearing or did you replace it with the new plastic one that is aligned with the steel ball. Sometimes when removing or installing the transmission, the steel ball will fall out and then the tee bearing will ride too low on the agitator shaft.

Is the brake releasing when it goes into spin? Look at the brake when it goes into spin. You should see the brake move slightly downward and there should be a gap between the brake and the braking surface.

Also, is the acutator rod lubed and free. If not this could cause this problem.

Check these things and get back to us when you can.

Have a nice trip. Sometimes just getting away from a frustrating project will give you a new perspective.

Greg

 

[roto204]

Revenge of the spin

Okay, so further evaluation of my Kenmore indicates weirdness. On comparing it to Ross' '59 machine, I noticed some interesting things.

1.) The agitator on the '59 spins as fast as the basket does. My agitator just sits there most of the time, but twirls intermittently.

2.) If I wash a light load of materials that don't absorb a lot of water, my '61 can deal with it relatively easily, but a load of towels? You're sunk.

3.) Even the introduction of spray rinse water during the spin slows the machine down--and even when it's completely empty!

I hear an intermittent "scrape, scrape, scrape" which, I think, is the little plastic tabby that fits onto a tub bolt beneath the basket. I had to swap washers for a new one (the old ones are crunchy), and I think it raised that tab. But I seriously doubt the tab has the fortitude to slow the basket down if things were working properly.

It seems to me that the best solution would be a new spin tube/clutch assembly, new agitator shaft, and new bearings (like Robert recommended in his restoration, but I tried to get around . Problem is, I don't think my centerpost shaft will survive having its bearings pulled--there is very little intact metal left holding it together.

So, for now, I do sheets in it and just kind of ignore the fact that it can't deal with the heavy stuff.

Any thoughts? I'm kind of past the point of hoping that simpler solutions will provide the answer

--Nate

 

[Unimatic1140]

Nate if you manually put the washer into spin, what I mean by manually is turn the belt and hold the spin solenoid plunger up as you do this so the spin cam bar is engaged into spin. Then can you turn the spin basket rather easily (back and forth) or is it still tight like the brake hasn't released? Do you hear anything scraping then. Also when you turn the spin basket with the brake engaged do you still hear the scraping sound?

Take care not to pinch your fingers when you manually engage spin and be sure the washer is unplugged.

 

[roto204]

Sunny and 72

Thanks very much, Robert. I'll test things when I get home (next, Nate bounces to San Diego for training--oy! I just wanna stay home and do laundry!!) :-D

One thing I did notice last time I spun the belt to adjust the clutch plate was that the belt is quite difficult to turn as-is. I wonder if this is a symptom of the brake, or if I just overtensioned it?

I'll do the cam-shift test when I return. Thank you again!

--Nate

 

[kenmore1978]

spinning

You never mentioned if you checked for the little steel ball that goes into the agitator shft. If it's not there, it won't spin properly.

 

[roto204]

Actually, according to previous conversations, there is no steel ball on the much older belt-drive Kenmore/Whirlpools.

 

[rickr]

Missing parts Nate??

I know that a 1956 Whirlpool transmition has the steel ball,plus a small dime sized disk as well. I scrapped out a 1961 Kenmore transmition that had a hole in the case. Both the ball and the disk were in that transmition as well.

 

[fixerman]

Lets not get our balls confused

I think there is ball confusion here. The ball and disc are inside the trans and Nate is aware or that. The ball previously referenced by kenmore1978 is the one that orients the plastic tee bearing (If it has one) outside the trans case on the drive shaft.

 

[rickr]

Don't get our balls caught in the

Sorry, I do not remember any other balls in the WP/KM washers.
The "T" bearings on my machines are bronze. "More balls than a brass".... On second thought,never mind!

 

[roto204]

LOL

This discussion seems to be deteriorating rapidly :-D...but in a delightful way.

I decided to go balls to the...ah, er, well I decided to spin the belt, and it is still tough to turn. The fact that the agitator doesn't rotate freely with the tub when spinning, and tends to sit in place (though obviously disengaged from agitating) is just too weird, especially since Ross' '59 exhibits no such symptoms.

I'm thinking that, in a proper scenario, the machine would drop the spin assembly down to contact the clutch plate, and would have (via wig-wag) popped the agitator shaft out of the "engaged" position. So, assuming no oddities, the agitator shaft should be free to spin at the same rate as the spin tube, and everything's hunky-dory.

Mine doesn't...and I'm thinking that whatever is causing the agitator shaft to now stay mostly still while the spin tube is spinning (or trying to) must lie somewhere along the spin tube assembly. I can't see how that could be a symptom of a transmission problem, since it agitates, neutral drains, and disengages the agitator appropriately.

Would the brake being stuck possibly mess with the agitator shaft, as well as slowing down the spin?

I'm thinking about waiting for a good weekend to analyze Ross' machine and compare it with my own; properly adjusting the spin tube/yoke/clutch assembly is just not my forte, especially without a service manual. I can play around all I want, but I don't know what I'm doing, really *sheepish grin*.

BTW, what determines if the brake is "stuck on" or not? If it were, how would you resolve that (or is that all contingent upon proper adjustment of the threaded nut that is on the side of the yoke with the spring)?

Thank you as always for your guidance (and moral support)

--Nate

 

[Unimatic1140]

Nate I think there are many things you might need to check. I don't remember if you opened the tranny on this or not. But the discussion of balls is important because two areas that contain them would cause the agitator not to spin with the tub if they are missing. The first one is what Rick mentioned, if the ball and disk (or one or the other) is missing from the pit in the bottom of the transmission where the agitator shaft goes, it will cause problems, like the agitator not spinning with the basket. This happened to me with my Lady Kenmore rebuild when I forgot to put the disk back in.

 

[Unimatic1140]

Next on the list is what Fixerman was talking about the Basket Drive Support Collar/Bearing. If this is installed improperly it would definitely cause problems with the agitator not spinning with the basket and possibly with spinning the basket itself. They redesigned this bearing later on to be plastic with a ball to inset into the agitator shaft. They did this because of problems with the agitator not spinning properly with the basket; normally this wouldn't be a problem except it was causing problems with the agitator mounted fabric softener dispensers not working properly.

 

[roto204]

Check one

The ball and disk in the sump of the transmission are definitely in place. I was forewarned about those :-D (and sure enough, they went "plink!" and fell out when I tore it apart).

You said two areas...are there more lurking out there? I would swear my machine did not have a ball and T bearing--just the brass fitting that went over the agitator shaft and inserted in the spin tube...