Whirlpool compact heatpump dryers

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henene4

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Whirlpool apparently launched 2 compact heatpump dryers in the US.

https://www.whirlpool.com/laundry/d...ntless-heat-pump-compact-dryer.whd5090gw.html

https://www.whirlpool.com/laundry/d...ntless-heat-pump-compact-dryer.whd3090gw.html

If anyone ever has to get a compact laundry setup, I'd highly recomend these. While still small and slow, they are far gentler then normal condenser units and usually dry a little bit more evenly.

On that note, they actually updated their entire compact lineup for laundry, makeing it in line with the current EU styling.
 
Surprised

I'm surprised that Maytag doesn't have a full sized heat pump dryer in their line up.

Malcolm
 
I noticed on their web site on Saturday.  First thing I noticed was the newly designed control panel.  I think it's called guided control panel.  I have been wondering when they'd update their frontloaders to reflect the "How to wash" control panel on their TOL TLer. 
 
I see just one slight problem for those in older buildings. The 240/208v requirement. In many older buildings, especially in the northeast only 120v is available and venting is not.

It's a problem.

Jim
 
Yes, that is correct

But much new construction (and there is *PLENTY* of it ) has the proper electrical requirements here in NYC. In fact many new rental or condo units have washing machines and dryers already installed, and often one or both run on 208v-240v power.

It is just the nature of the beast, especially when much new construction is rehabbing former office buildings and or commercial space into apartments. There are only a certain number of outside facing walls then, and thus you aren't going to be able to vent outdoors for everyone's dryer. Yet having a washing machine and dryer has become nearly standard requirement for those seeking to rent or buy in NYC, especially Manhattan or downtown Brooklyn. Were I paying a few to several million for an apartment you can bet it better have laundry equipment either installed or at least be able to accommodate with proper water, drain and electric connections.

Up until now many of these dryers are usually condenser. One has written before about how some swear by such units here, or swear at them. It remains to be seen how these heat pump dryers will be received.

The other trend here in NYC is that much new construction is going towards all electric apartments. That is induction for range top cooking, electric oven and or microwave along with some sort of PTAC for heating or cooling. For the latter buildings are also going with central AC and heating of various methods as well, but steam heating, once so common in NYC seems to be less and less installed in new construction.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/02/realestate/02cov.html

https://www.apartments.com/45-st-marks-pl-new-york-ny/61jf1ps/

Going with all electric apartments allows landlords or property owners to skip the costs of installing gas lines. It also allows them in case of rentals not to have to worry about either installing individual meters or having gas included with the apartment lease.

Of course the boom in "compact" (ok, European standard sized) front loading washing machines along with other equally similar top loaders means more and more New Yorkers are sneaking laundry equipment into their apartments, lease or building be darned. Those Whirlpool/Kenmore compact dryers that have been on sale for what seems like forever are nearly everywhere.
 
I might be wrong but I had the impression they`ve put in a really big and powerful heatpump if it has to be fused at 30 Amps in a 220 V circuit. Doesn`t sound like a ported design from the EU to me.

But if so, why not make it a full size dryer (by US standarts) ?
 
Yes, I first noticed the all-electric trend about 15 years ago when the upstairs apartment of a friend was remodelled to be all-electric even though the building had both steam heat and gas lines. Instead of a gas stove there was a 2-burner smooth-top and a wall-mounted, larger than average microwave. I don't recall the heat.

I can see how all-electric saves cost for the building owner, both in construction and maintenance (PTAC attached to the unit's meter). Then there's the 'complexity' of the one-pipe steam system still very common in the northeast. It's 'complex' due to a general inability/refusal to understand that most are designed to run at 2-3 lbs. of pressure (not 10), that you can't level the pipes or the radiators, and that ignoring these 2 points leads to more frequent repairs and poor performance, not to mention noise from a system that's supposed to be virtually silent... but I digress.

My personal issue with all-electric stems from the fact that I've lived through too many power failures. I've learned I can handle damn near anything (including chopping wood for the wood stove for heat and hand-carrying water up 4 flights to fill the cistern in the attic) PROVIDED I've had my coffee and hot shower. Sorry a gas hot water heater and 2 gas burners are my personal requirements.

I can also see how rolling the cost of proper laundry hook-ups into the price of the re-hab would be a smart financial move on the part of the owner. I can just imagine the comments from a perspective buyer/renter: "You want me to pay HOW MUCH and I can't put in my own washer & dryer?!"

I noticed mention of putting the cost of the common washer/dryer into a jar atop the private one each time it's used. Now that I think about it, our building's units are priced rather low: $1.50/wash and 0.75 for half hour of drying. Perhaps to quiet the group who wants to change the co-op's rules?

Which brings me back to my building: Heat & a/c provided by air chillers (hot water in winter), gas stoves & ovens, NO 240v AFAIK, NO outside walls or windows in any kitchen or bathroom. Dishwashers ARE approved, hence the pro euro-sized washer contingent among the owners (I'm still renting). FYI, dehumidifiers are extremely common as one might expect due to the air-chillers. So, once I finally own my place and the washer/dryer ban is lifted, I'll be limited to: 120v and ventless......

Yes, Foraloysius & Henene4. I can't imagine how the market could possibly be too small to support just ONE 120v HP dryer model.

On the more technical side: A vented, electric dryer with resistance heat loses 3/4 of its dryer power going from 240 to 120v thanks to that pesky Inverse Square law. What is the average drop for condenser and HP dryers? Still 3/4 as a result of input drop or is is somewhat less due to mechanical differences?

Below is a link to a brief article on a 1935 PTAC

There was a rather extensive thread on the issues surrounding 21st century HVAC techs working on one-pipe steam systems designed nearly 150 years earlier. I believe it was in the fall of 2015 when I was recovering from heart surgery. If you cannot find it, let me know and I'll dig it up.

Once again, I've spent my morning on AW.ORG and have ignored my own tasks. It's now time for me to get ready for work...

http://https//books.google.com/books?id=uN4DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA885
 
IIRC normal high voltage in the USA is 240V. 240V x 30 Amps would be 7200 Watts. Because the motor needs probably around 200 Watts, we are left with 7000 Watts power for the heatpump. Now I don't know much about heatmpumps, but just assume that the heatpump delivers twice the amount of heat as it consumes. That would mean the heat in this dryer would be 14000 Watts. I think that would be a bit too much for a compact dryer. Instant scorching!

I don't think the heatpump in the American Whirlpool compacts would be very different from the European equivalent.
 
I see it`s probably just a typo and the dryer might even run on a standard 120 V circuit at 950 Watts.

But who knows for sure ?
It could just as well be a bigger heat pump let`s say 2000 Watts. That would make for a comparable heat output of conventional US dryers. Then it would of course require a little more juice than the standard 15 or 20 Amps 120 V wiring can handle so this might explain why they could have opted for those possibly already existing 30 Amps 240V dryer outlets.
It`s just my silly speculation but one thing is certain: Americans don`t like endless cycle times.
 
Waste of energy

*laughs*

Boy, these things use less then 2kWh for loads of 18-20lbs. We have dryers here that dry loads of 18lbs with as little as 1.2-1.4kWh. With that amount of energy, you could run your full-size american electric dryer fo about 15 minutes. I highly doubt that that would be enough to dry such a load.

I think that 30A label is just the standard for the high-voltage lines in the US (never quite sure if that now is 208V, 220V or 240V).

And the reason no heatpump in heatpump dryers has more then 1kW I think is related to heatexhanger surface area. There is a verry thin balance in these systems, how much energy they can actually transfer.
These dryers don't dry as much with heat anymore, they use the super dry air they can produce. Best proof for that: These need about 30-45min to come up to normal operating temperature. But they still extract quite some water during that time.
Our Whirlpool dryer does not have one of the more advanced inverter heatpumps and towards the end of cycles, the heatpump tends to get louder. It seems as if it's cavitating because it can't condense enough of its refrigirant anymore.

I've been actually wondering for quite a while where the heat in these dryers comes from. They should put the same amount of energy into the system they take out of it, so the heat either comes from they water vapor that is taken out of the system or is waste heat of the heatpump. Or both.
I mean, these don't work like the ACs by having to seperate systmes they can move energy between. Both sides of the heatpump are in the same closed system, so where do they get the energy from they pu into the system?
 
Dryer's specs

Call for 120/240v power at 30 amps for the 4.3 cubic foot model (compact). In other words this "compact" dryer requires the same electric dryer connections as any full sized version sold in the USA.

https://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/WHD5090GW.html

Here is the Whirlpool "Duet" ventless dryer (one assumes just a standard condenser model), and it also has same power requirements:

https://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/WED9290F.html

Blomberg also sells a "heat pump" dryer in the USA it seems, but cannot tell from the write up if it is such or just a condenser.

https://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/DHP24412W.html

Download Whirlpool's manual here: https://www.ajmadison.com/ajmadison/itemdocs/whirlpool_ventless_dryer_WHD5090GW_installation.pdf
 
Only way to settle this debate regarding power draw for heaters is for someone to in person have a peep at rating plate.

If there was a remote possibility these "compact" heat pump dryers could run on 120v only power, would assume WP would have done so. It certainly would have increased their sales as far more persons in urban and other situations have access to 120v power over 208v-240v.
 
Not to drift too much off topic

But NYC landlords and developers are moving away from steam and perhaps centrally controlled heating (boilers) for a few good reasons.

First there is the chronic problem of keeping a steam heating plant in good order to prevent some tenants roasting while others complain they are "cold". Give everyone their own heating system and or ability to control and that solves one very large problem.

This winter was rather mild but our building more often than not had the steam cranked up very high. This was due to several older to elderly persons who constantly complained they were "cold", and some even filed complaints with the city about "lack of heat". When inspectors arrived they only had to walk into the over heated building to see this was nonsense, but there you are then.

One of the main reasons you are seeing less steam heating installed is the fact much new construction using glass curtain walls instead of full masonry of old. These steel and glass buildings are faster and cheaper to put up, but you cannot use steam heating as there isn't anywhere to run the pipes.

Leave us not forget one of our own who does in fact work for WP was kind enough to share his observations and comments regarding HP dryer:
http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?59078
[this post was last edited: 4/13/2017-21:18]
 
Back on topic

Following is a pretty decent review along with comments on the WP heat pump dryers:

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/guest-blogs/heat-pump-clothes-dryers

Cannot find mention of it in owner's manual, but apparently it does seem that the WP dryers do allow for faster drying using a some sort of different method than heat pump. Another review stated on "quick" the dryer did a full load in about 45 minutes. That kind of speed simply cannot come from a pure condenser/heat pump drying system alone, especially one that handles large loads as the WP units. This tells one that there is some sort of resistance heating elements that can be used to crank up the heat where necessary. That would explain the 30amp requirements.

Furthermore WP like most others hailing heat pump technology makes much noise about heated or cooled air not being vented out of the home. Well there are great periods of the year when neither the heating nor air conditioning systems are running for most of the USA. Today for instance here in NYC the boilers didn't come on and we certainly didn't run the AC, this was with outdoor temps in the low 60's (F).

http://www.trustedreviews.com/whirlpool-hscx10431-review#disqus_thread
 
NYC Steam Heat

Complicating factors:

A dearth landlords/supers/etc. who know enough about steam heat to think that those who are cold might have radiator valves that are clogged and those who have too much heat might have too fast a valve on theirs. I'm sorry, but there's a serious problem going on when *I* know more about these one-pipe steam systems than the supposed experts. Pressurtrol set at 10psi in a pre-WWI 3-family house..... Seriously?

As a result of the Spanish flu epidemic (~1918) all new construction had to have heating sufficiently strong to keep living areas at 'X' temperature (65F?) with one window opened 'Y'(3?) inches with an outside temperature of 'Z'(15F?).
My exact numbers might be wrong (corrections, please!) but my point is not.

After the energy crisis hit in '73 the USA went on a binge of insulating, caulking, and replacing single glaze windows with double. Result? Oversized heating systems.

Jim
 
"I'm surprised to see Whirlpool kept the Warm Rinse option on these"

In some parts of the USA tap cold water can be quite cold indeed, especially during the colder months of the year. For such instances you want or need "warm" water for rinsing.

The SQ washing machines at local laundromat use a mixture of hot and cold water during the final rinse. That is hot water comes down through the fabric softener dispenser and cold on the other side. Am guessing this is to prevent FS from being a congealed mess and thus not dispense properly during cold weather.
 
So funktioniert der Miele Wärmepumpentrockner Miele

How the Miele heat pump dryer works:



What you notice at once is why these heat pump dryers are more maintenance intensive then the already so condenser dryers.

In a normal condenser dryer one removes the "condenser" to clean. With a heat pump dryer since the thing is mated to a refrigerant system, that is not possible. Hence there needs to be a good number of filters in place to keep the condenser clean.
 
True about the warm rinse - but how many current US front loaders offer this option? LG and Whirlpool in Europe have it, so I was surprised to see that Whirlpool didn't remove this feature for the Americanized version.

That Miele video is pretty old. Back then, every filter was two-layered, meaning you had to clean up to six filters (periodically). Today's dryers have reduced the number of filters.

 
I guess for people without a natural gas option and venting, this may be considered, but I can't be sure the complexity of the machine would justify buying it.  Having natural gas I just can't see the benefit of switching to this.  

 

I looked at the users manual for the Bloomberg machine.  Cottons regular dry time is 145 minutes, Extra dry time is 155 minutes, Synthetics regular dry is 55 minutes - I can hang them on an upper floor in my house and dry them faster than this. 

 

I can dry a load of heavy towels(802 Gram)  in less than 45 minutes, a regular load of cottons in 25-30 minutes, and Synthetics in 20 minutes.  

 

How does humid air affect these machines, does it increase or decrease drying times?
 
Read the owner's manual for Miele heat pump dryer

It only cautions not to place the thing in an area that is too warm/hot or cold.

As for being "worth it", well we must remember like other condenser dryers the answer isn't always cut and dry.

Condenser/vent-less dryers are meant to provide a solution to a problem; how to have a tumble dryer where venting does not allow. When compared to vented a condenser dryer of any sort including heat pump will be slower on average. Yes, there are tons of various "savings" supposedly coming from energy use, reduced wear upon textiles, environment, and so forth, but there you are.

Everything one has read so far on these heap pump dryers clearly says one would need to own the things for a very long time *and* do large amounts of laundry to make the them even remotely pay off. That is if you line dry most washing and only use any sort of dryer when weather is bad or need things in a hurry, then it could take ages before you've gotten your money back in whatever savings from these heat pump dryers.

http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/help/buying-advice/tumble-dryers/3845-are-heat-pump-dryers-worth-it

My AEG Oko-Lavamat can take one hour to almost three to do a load of washing. A full load of terry bath linen will dry in the AEG Oko-Lavatherm in about two hours or so (give or take). In the small Whilrpool compact same load would dry in about one and one half hours. Faster if one breaks up the load into two smaller batches.

Heat pump dryers are taking condenser drying to the next level. That is they deal with the problems of such dryers very reliant upon the air/weather conditions surrounding in order to work properly. Condenser dryers are popular in northern Europe, and they would be wouldn't they? Temps are often cool to cold if not usually damp. As anyone in a more temperate climate such s South of France or even New York City during a good part of the year can tell you, a condenser dryer just won't work when weather is very warm to hot and humid. Only way around this is to create the same northern European environment; that is turn on the AC.
 
Where ever you can set up a fridge and it works, you can set up a heatpump dryer and it should work. Their drying system is designed to be as self contained as possible, so the only thing the surrounding could do is being to hot so the compressor it self overheats or to cold which can affect the heatpump as well.

"One would have to do a lot of laundry":
When we bought our HP dryer (which is fairly simmilar to this one, just the previous generation), we did some rough cut calculation. With our usage pattern (I think we estimated 200-250 loads a year) and a rough estimate of savings (about 2kWh per load) and our electricity rates (about 0.3€/kWh), we estimated we would save about 150€ a year.
The same dryer with normal condesing system was 399€ at that time, the heatpump 599€ or 699€, can't remeber.
So 2 years was all it takes to clear the cut there.

With higher unit prices and lower energy rates, this period can get far greater.

And on the topic of drying times: I think they just copied the EU verdions of those too, and there again we talk 18lbs loads in a 4ft³ dryer.
 
Our area is currently around

Nineteen cents per kWh:
https://www.bls.gov/regions/new-york-new-jersey/news-release/averageenergyprices_newyorkarea.htm

However your dryer usage is far greater than ours. If the Whirlpool is used every other week or two for one or maybe two loads that is saying something. As for the AEG Oko-Lavatherm it sees only a handful of action per year. Much of this is simply due to the climate/weather. NYC is simply too warm or even hot much of the year to make a condenser dryer work.

Linens and shirts are ironed so that takes them out of the equation.

Heavy and thick things like blankets while washed at home are taken round to the local launderette and bunged into their huge gas dryers. Some blankets are simply air dried over horses.
 
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