Hello everybody. I would like to discuss about comparing the Whirlpool filtration dishwashers to their point voyager counterparts. First of all, the dishwasher my dad has is a Whirlpool gold point voyager dishwasher. It has the hard food disposer. The high-temp wash is a true one. My mom's Kenmore alternates spray arms. Hers has a filter and the high-temp wash option is anything but. I use Cascade complete citrus breeze action packs in my dad's dishwasher. Let me tell you, his cleans better than the new ones. By the way, my dad's operates all three sprays at once. Did I mention that I use normal/high-temp wash all the time. I do use heated dry most of the time. I bet you that dishwasher can take on my creations that are pretty hard to clean. Take my enchilada fettuccini dish for example. I boil my fettuccini noodles, but not cook them all the way. Meanwhile, I chop bell peppers and onions and brown them with the meat. I then add enchilada sauce. During this time, the oven is being preheated to 350 degrees. I have a 9 by 13 baking dish ready. I layer it (referring to the baking dish),starting with the fettuccini noodles, enchilada sauce mixture, sharp cheddar cheese, repeat. I put it in the oven for 25-30 minutes. I take it out of the oven and let it cool. I enjoy a plate of fettuccini enchilada with guacamole on top of it. Then, my plate, along with my family's plates and other dirty dishes go straight into the dishwasher with the rest of them. I put a cascade complete citrus breeze pack and set it on normal/high-temp/heat dry. I noticed when the dishwasher is in the main wash on the normal cycle, the thermal hold would be at 63 minutes. Meanwhile, my mom's would take forever to get the dishes clean with the same detergent. And I use rinse aid in both of them. I don't think my mom's would get my fettuccini enchilada and guacamole creation off the dishes! Low temp wash with the so-called high-temp wash on the filtration models! Weak spray! What do you think?
whirlpool point voyager vs. filtration dishwashers
- Thread starter gelaundry4ever
- Start date
timer display on dishwasher
When I say 63 minutes, that is with the high-temp on. Never mind the fettuccini enchilada creation I came up with since 2013. It was just an example of food this dishwasher can take on. Notice I didn't put strain noodles because that is obviously getting done after boiling. Anyway, my mom's Kenmore dishwasher has idiot lights. My dad's Whirlpool has a timer display. Let me tell you! My dad's dishwasher lets its presence known!
When I say 63 minutes, that is with the high-temp on. Never mind the fettuccini enchilada creation I came up with since 2013. It was just an example of food this dishwasher can take on. Notice I didn't put strain noodles because that is obviously getting done after boiling. Anyway, my mom's Kenmore dishwasher has idiot lights. My dad's Whirlpool has a timer display. Let me tell you! My dad's dishwasher lets its presence known!
Hugh...
Didn't we have that discussion about a hundred times already?
If you don't know what you buy and how you use it, you can not expect it to work.
The PV works. Really well. It is a tested and proofed design. But factly, it is out-dated.
The new WP designs have been proofen to be not execptional good. But that is well known.
BUT there is a good bunch of new HE DW that will clean as well (or better) than the PV while being not even noticed and using quite a bit less. Just take a look in this thread:
http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?58290_33
Didn't we have that discussion about a hundred times already?
If you don't know what you buy and how you use it, you can not expect it to work.
The PV works. Really well. It is a tested and proofed design. But factly, it is out-dated.
The new WP designs have been proofen to be not execptional good. But that is well known.
BUT there is a good bunch of new HE DW that will clean as well (or better) than the PV while being not even noticed and using quite a bit less. Just take a look in this thread:
http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?58290_33
mark_wpduet
Well-known member
My Maytag
is pretty new. Only 6 or 7 months old. It's a point voyager with stainless interior and I freaking LOVE it!! Best dishwasher I've ever had. I guess Maytag still makes the point voyager system and I guess that's how they claim that largest motor on the market.
is pretty new. Only 6 or 7 months old. It's a point voyager with stainless interior and I freaking LOVE it!! Best dishwasher I've ever had. I guess Maytag still makes the point voyager system and I guess that's how they claim that largest motor on the market.
Best Currently Available DWs
The new MTs are very good, we are mostly selling them, with a few WP filter machines and quite a few KA models mixed in.
Whirlpool Is still building the worlds best DWs in Findley Ohio, they consistently have top rated DWs in leading testing magazines.
Bosch, Miele, Samsung, LG and several other DWs brands are so difficult to service that these machines are all essentially throw-away machines,so while some of these machines work pretty well for a while be prepared for really big repair bills and frequent replacements of the entire machine.
The new MTs are very good, we are mostly selling them, with a few WP filter machines and quite a few KA models mixed in.
Whirlpool Is still building the worlds best DWs in Findley Ohio, they consistently have top rated DWs in leading testing magazines.
Bosch, Miele, Samsung, LG and several other DWs brands are so difficult to service that these machines are all essentially throw-away machines,so while some of these machines work pretty well for a while be prepared for really big repair bills and frequent replacements of the entire machine.
washerdude
Well-known member
I will say...
Our BOL kenmore 15113 dishwasher has treated us well. We really didn't want an expensive unit consdering all the whirlpool units are made the same (exept maytag). Both of its spray arms move simultaneously. Infact I ran it for a split second with the door open and the spray was pretty harsh. The bottom spray arm was able to reach the top with no issue at all. Honestly enough, whirlpool dishwashers are good (Despite how i said they were going downhill which i take back) I think this design is pretty reliable and works well. In fact if sani rinse is enabled, the filters are virtually self cleaning. No complaints here, dishes have always been coming out clean and dry.
Our BOL kenmore 15113 dishwasher has treated us well. We really didn't want an expensive unit consdering all the whirlpool units are made the same (exept maytag). Both of its spray arms move simultaneously. Infact I ran it for a split second with the door open and the spray was pretty harsh. The bottom spray arm was able to reach the top with no issue at all. Honestly enough, whirlpool dishwashers are good (Despite how i said they were going downhill which i take back) I think this design is pretty reliable and works well. In fact if sani rinse is enabled, the filters are virtually self cleaning. No complaints here, dishes have always been coming out clean and dry.
Bosch and Miele
I can only insist on you takeing this back, combo52.
Mieles are cramed (true) but servicing is just as easy as on any DW. Take it out, flip it over. Miele isn't the best to service, but throw away at no point of time. Simply because if something fails, it is usually far less severe than with other DWs.
And if Bosch would be a throw away, I doubt it would be the most sold DW design and by now most advanced, and best known DW design of the EU. True is, the US design is different, but the basic parts are still the same.
I just don't see a reason why they should be harder to service.
I can only insist on you takeing this back, combo52.
Mieles are cramed (true) but servicing is just as easy as on any DW. Take it out, flip it over. Miele isn't the best to service, but throw away at no point of time. Simply because if something fails, it is usually far less severe than with other DWs.
And if Bosch would be a throw away, I doubt it would be the most sold DW design and by now most advanced, and best known DW design of the EU. True is, the US design is different, but the basic parts are still the same.
I just don't see a reason why they should be harder to service.
With some US dishwashers, you can practically remove the wash unit (pump etc.) from inside of the tub - it lifts out similar to the filter cup.
Lift-out pump
This one looks a little more complicated
Lift-out pump
This one looks a little more complicated
jeff_adelphi
Well-known member
"Take it out, flip it over"
This is why I won't service a Bosch or Miele dishwasher. With unhooking the water supply, drain line, and electric, then getting it out from under the counter, then having to reinstall, you can add about an hour to the labor charge. Almost all major repairs to a Whirlpool built DW don't require moving the unit. I installed a pump and motor assembly on a Bosch once, and will never do it again, even after it was out and on it's back, it was still a pain to get the bottom off to get to the motor.
This is why I won't service a Bosch or Miele dishwasher. With unhooking the water supply, drain line, and electric, then getting it out from under the counter, then having to reinstall, you can add about an hour to the labor charge. Almost all major repairs to a Whirlpool built DW don't require moving the unit. I installed a pump and motor assembly on a Bosch once, and will never do it again, even after it was out and on it's back, it was still a pain to get the bottom off to get to the motor.
arris
Well-known member
Bosch & Miele
Henene4
Do you repair appliances ??? Have you worked on the units ??? If so,since we all share on this site, offer advice and help each other, why not offer some of your repair expertise ???
Henene4
Do you repair appliances ??? Have you worked on the units ??? If so,since we all share on this site, offer advice and help each other, why not offer some of your repair expertise ???
Best Currently Available DWs
Hi Henene4, Thanks for backing up my point about the necessity of removing most European DWs to repair them. We have found in our business that few people will repair a DW if it has to be removed for repairs. As my neighbor-customer up the street a few years ago said when I found that her 6 YO Bosch DW needed a new main pump and motor, " if you are going to have to pull it out to repair you may just as well bring me a new DW " She went on to say that the Bosch didn't hold nearly as much as her previous WP built KM Power-Clean DW did and the Bosch always smelled bad as well, so in went a New WP DW.
Henene4 it would be very helpful if you filled out your profile a little more, maybe a name and what your qualifications are if you want to be taken seriously, Thanks John.
Hi Henene4, Thanks for backing up my point about the necessity of removing most European DWs to repair them. We have found in our business that few people will repair a DW if it has to be removed for repairs. As my neighbor-customer up the street a few years ago said when I found that her 6 YO Bosch DW needed a new main pump and motor, " if you are going to have to pull it out to repair you may just as well bring me a new DW " She went on to say that the Bosch didn't hold nearly as much as her previous WP built KM Power-Clean DW did and the Bosch always smelled bad as well, so in went a New WP DW.
Henene4 it would be very helpful if you filled out your profile a little more, maybe a name and what your qualifications are if you want to be taken seriously, Thanks John.
jerrod6
Well-known member
" if you are going to have to pull it out to repair you may just as well bring me a new DW "
What is the reasoning behind this statement?
What is the reasoning behind this statement?
It takes quite an effort to fully uninstall a dishwasher--and takes time. If a repairman has to go to all that trouble, take advantage of the unit being removed and replace it with a brand new one. I can understand the logic.
But why is it so difficult to remove a dishwasher? It seriously takes me less than a minute to remove my Bosch: pop the kitchen's toe kick off, lower the dishwasher's legs one turn (all accessible from the front) and pull it out. Less than a minute. The water hoses are very long and unplugging the dishwasher takes one sec.
And from this point on...
It should be round about 15 minutes to remove the drain pump, the main recirculation pump, the heater or the water softner on a Bosch if you know what you are doing. On higher end Bosches you might have a bit less space if they have a Zeolith drying system.
On a Miele, the procedure of removing the main pump might take a bit longer because of the Turbothermic drying fan being in the way.
Certanly, I know my stuff. I don't service the professional, nor do I service them often. But I know what I say. And if you take a look at my number of posts, I contribute where I can.
But maybe, we define "throw away" a bit different. For me, a DW that costs several hundred €/$ and needs a service call every 10 years is not throw away because it costs 10 minutes more in labor. For me, throw away means not repairable or at costs that are in no relation to the price of it new.
It should be round about 15 minutes to remove the drain pump, the main recirculation pump, the heater or the water softner on a Bosch if you know what you are doing. On higher end Bosches you might have a bit less space if they have a Zeolith drying system.
On a Miele, the procedure of removing the main pump might take a bit longer because of the Turbothermic drying fan being in the way.
Certanly, I know my stuff. I don't service the professional, nor do I service them often. But I know what I say. And if you take a look at my number of posts, I contribute where I can.
But maybe, we define "throw away" a bit different. For me, a DW that costs several hundred €/$ and needs a service call every 10 years is not throw away because it costs 10 minutes more in labor. For me, throw away means not repairable or at costs that are in no relation to the price of it new.
Just to clarify...
The part with the number of posts was directed to arris, who funny enough joined exactly 9 days after me.
The part with the number of posts was directed to arris, who funny enough joined exactly 9 days after me.
I believe it is not so much the dishwasher but the American kitchens and the way dishwashers are installed are the problem. Europe has a much more ingenious way of installing dishwashers, which is partly caused by the European standard kitchen design.
Here's a video about installing an American dishwasher:
And here is one for a European dishwasher:
The last video is in Dutch, but you only have to see the pictures to get the idea.
Here's a video about installing an American dishwasher:
And here is one for a European dishwasher:
The last video is in Dutch, but you only have to see the pictures to get the idea.
Good point, Louis. The European way is much more plug 'n' play - no messing with wires etc.
Installing a European vs A US DW
Thanks for posting these videos Louis, to me it is about a toss up as to which is easier, it is certainly easier to level a European DW and you can really see the amount of inside space that is sacrificed on European DWs with the very long legs.
Both of these installations are about ideal in terms of ease, no built-up floors in front, old plumbing problems etc to deal with, I am always thrilled when we encounter an installation this easy and in our area not one in twenty are close to this easy.
Thanks for posting these videos Louis, to me it is about a toss up as to which is easier, it is certainly easier to level a European DW and you can really see the amount of inside space that is sacrificed on European DWs with the very long legs.
Both of these installations are about ideal in terms of ease, no built-up floors in front, old plumbing problems etc to deal with, I am always thrilled when we encounter an installation this easy and in our area not one in twenty are close to this easy.
arris
Well-known member
Bosch & Miele
Henene4
Not sure what part with the # of post"s you are referring too, dosen't matter though.
Good to hear you offer advice like many of the other members, was never an implication you didn't was just referencing why this site is such a great place to go for new & vintage appliances, along with the abundace of repair knowledge from other members. I've learned a lot about WP/KM washers & dryers from Gordon and John.
Have a good day.........................
Henene4
Not sure what part with the # of post"s you are referring too, dosen't matter though.
Good to hear you offer advice like many of the other members, was never an implication you didn't was just referencing why this site is such a great place to go for new & vintage appliances, along with the abundace of repair knowledge from other members. I've learned a lot about WP/KM washers & dryers from Gordon and John.
Have a good day.........................
FYI...
I have been using dishwashers since 2006! I've always used them correctly! So it's not what I'm doing to the dishwasher, it is the fact that these new dishwashers have weak pumps! Did I tell you about that cheese enchilada test I did on the powerClean dishwasher? Both the point voyager and powerClean would've scoured that cheese enchilada stained pan in less than an hour... not three! Yes! I used Cascade as directed! Whirlpool dishwashers are nothing more than power lawn sprinklers! Who do they think they are?
I have been using dishwashers since 2006! I've always used them correctly! So it's not what I'm doing to the dishwasher, it is the fact that these new dishwashers have weak pumps! Did I tell you about that cheese enchilada test I did on the powerClean dishwasher? Both the point voyager and powerClean would've scoured that cheese enchilada stained pan in less than an hour... not three! Yes! I used Cascade as directed! Whirlpool dishwashers are nothing more than power lawn sprinklers! Who do they think they are?
iheartmaytag
Well-known member
Logixx
< one minute--honestly?
We all have a saying in the here bouts of Kansas--Horse Pucky?
What about trim rings, counter mounts, floor entrapments, not to mention that pesky insulation that wants to hang on for dear life.
I uninstalled my Maytag, and installed the Kitchenaid and with not changing any plumbing and only switching the electrical and hooking up hoses it took me better part of one hour.
If you can do all this in less than an minute, you should be hiring yourself out for $90 bucks a pop for installation you could make yourself a fortune.
< one minute--honestly?
We all have a saying in the here bouts of Kansas--Horse Pucky?
What about trim rings, counter mounts, floor entrapments, not to mention that pesky insulation that wants to hang on for dear life.
I uninstalled my Maytag, and installed the Kitchenaid and with not changing any plumbing and only switching the electrical and hooking up hoses it took me better part of one hour.
If you can do all this in less than an minute, you should be hiring yourself out for $90 bucks a pop for installation you could make yourself a fortune.
Yup - one minute.
The opening for the dishwasher is standardized and the unit fits in seamlessly with no trim needed. The three feet are hight adjustable and are adjusted so that the dishwasher presses itself against the counter, thus I didn't install the two screws for the counter mounts. The floor is tile even underneath the dishwasher - no entrapment. All the insulation is hidden behind stainless steel side panels.
The opening for the dishwasher is standardized and the unit fits in seamlessly with no trim needed. The three feet are hight adjustable and are adjusted so that the dishwasher presses itself against the counter, thus I didn't install the two screws for the counter mounts. The floor is tile even underneath the dishwasher - no entrapment. All the insulation is hidden behind stainless steel side panels.
Possibility
I know nothing about how European dishwashers are installed, and I'm oh-so-intimately familiar with the horrors that can unfold on this side of the pond with built-in installations (low, inflexible countertops and/or raised flooring to name just a couple). It might be fun to make a thread about how each is installed with a little YouTube vid showing the process, so we can watch and learn from each other. And possibly commiserate at key points.
I'd love to learn why it's simpler over there.
I know nothing about how European dishwashers are installed, and I'm oh-so-intimately familiar with the horrors that can unfold on this side of the pond with built-in installations (low, inflexible countertops and/or raised flooring to name just a couple). It might be fun to make a thread about how each is installed with a little YouTube vid showing the process, so we can watch and learn from each other. And possibly commiserate at key points.
I'd love to learn why it's simpler over there.FYI...
I have been using dishwashers since 2006! I've always used them correctly! So it's not what I'm doing to the dishwasher, it is the fact that these new dishwashers have weak pumps! Did I tell you about that cheese enchilada test I did on the powerClean dishwasher? Both the point voyager and powerClean would've scoured that cheese enchilada stained pan in less than an hour... not three! Yes! I used Cascade as directed! Whirlpool dishwashers are nothing more than power lawn sprinklers! Who do they think they are?
I have been using dishwashers since 2006! I've always used them correctly! So it's not what I'm doing to the dishwasher, it is the fact that these new dishwashers have weak pumps! Did I tell you about that cheese enchilada test I did on the powerClean dishwasher? Both the point voyager and powerClean would've scoured that cheese enchilada stained pan in less than an hour... not three! Yes! I used Cascade as directed! Whirlpool dishwashers are nothing more than power lawn sprinklers! Who do they think they are?
Installing a European vs A US DW
Hi Nate, you were supposed to watch the posted videos, the only thing I couldn't decide after watching was which installer was hotter, LOL.
But seriously, this afternoon I worked on an eight year old Bosch DW that would not drain. The customer was ready to trash the thing, but I knew since the drain pump was running it couldn't be that difficult to repair. So I disconnected the fill line, cranked the feet down and pulled the thing out. Then I pried the left side panel off [ was not built for easy removable ] and found a weird drain hose junction that was clogged with a part of a rubber check Valve from the DW. I removed the clog reassembled the DW and reinstalled the DW [ TOTAL TIME ONE HOUR ] and the floor was not even built up.
A similar repair on a WP DW would take 15-20 minutes, time is money and I can assure you that most repair people would just condemn a DW that has to be pulled out for service unless it was very new or expensive.
Hi Nate, you were supposed to watch the posted videos, the only thing I couldn't decide after watching was which installer was hotter, LOL.
But seriously, this afternoon I worked on an eight year old Bosch DW that would not drain. The customer was ready to trash the thing, but I knew since the drain pump was running it couldn't be that difficult to repair. So I disconnected the fill line, cranked the feet down and pulled the thing out. Then I pried the left side panel off [ was not built for easy removable ] and found a weird drain hose junction that was clogged with a part of a rubber check Valve from the DW. I removed the clog reassembled the DW and reinstalled the DW [ TOTAL TIME ONE HOUR ] and the floor was not even built up.
A similar repair on a WP DW would take 15-20 minutes, time is money and I can assure you that most repair people would just condemn a DW that has to be pulled out for service unless it was very new or expensive.
Installing a European vs A US DW
Hi Nate, you were supposed to watch the posted videos, the only thing I couldn't decide after watching was which installer was hotter, LOL.
But seriously, this afternoon I worked on an eight year old Bosch DW that would not drain. The customer was ready to trash the thing, but I knew since the drain pump was running it couldn't be that difficult to repair. So I disconnected the fill line, cranked the feet down and pulled the thing out. Then I pried the left side panel off [ was not built for easy removable ] and found a weird drain hose junction that was clogged with a part of a rubber check Valve from the DW. I removed the clog reassembled the DW and reinstalled the DW [ TOTAL TIME ONE HOUR ] and the floor was not even built up.
A similar repair on a WP DW would take 15-20 minutes, time is money and I can assure you that most repair people would just condemn a DW that has to be pulled out for service unless it was very new or expensive.
Hi Nate, you were supposed to watch the posted videos, the only thing I couldn't decide after watching was which installer was hotter, LOL.
But seriously, this afternoon I worked on an eight year old Bosch DW that would not drain. The customer was ready to trash the thing, but I knew since the drain pump was running it couldn't be that difficult to repair. So I disconnected the fill line, cranked the feet down and pulled the thing out. Then I pried the left side panel off [ was not built for easy removable ] and found a weird drain hose junction that was clogged with a part of a rubber check Valve from the DW. I removed the clog reassembled the DW and reinstalled the DW [ TOTAL TIME ONE HOUR ] and the floor was not even built up.
A similar repair on a WP DW would take 15-20 minutes, time is money and I can assure you that most repair people would just condemn a DW that has to be pulled out for service unless it was very new or expensive.
Derf!
Forgive my senior moment I see them now under Louis' post!
And as to which is hotter, the answer is clear--"yes."
Forgive my senior moment
I see them now under Louis' post!And as to which is hotter, the answer is clear--"yes."
earthling177
Well-known member
At the risk of annoying everyone, I'd like to tell both people in Europe and in US how things work.
Dishwashers in US do not use standard fittings: it depends on where you live and the local building codes. Eventually, it will converge into something similar to what Europe uses, but for now, even dishwashers *made* in Europe, like Siemens, Bosch, Miele, Asko etc, are more of a pain in the ass to install here than in their countries of origin. You should see what some people in California or Seattle go thru, including having to install a siphon break (AKA an "air gap") even if the machine doesn't *need* one because it has one built-in. Some localities force you to use a rigid copper pipe for the water supply. Other places force you to hardwire the machine.
The best analogy I can offer to American people: have you ever thought for a minute that it would take you a looong time to swap a clothes dryer or a clothes washer? No? It takes just a couple of minutes right?
That's precisely what our European friends are saying: when I lived abroad the technicians would show up at my house and have the machine out of the cabinets in a couple of minutes or less. The water supply is exactly the same as a washing machine, usually the drain connection has it's own standpipe and the machine is plugged in the nearest electrical outlet. Some machines are not "built in" like ours, they are free standing with casters, so you just make the connections and slide the machine under the cabinets and you are done.
Yes, it's a pain in the ass to have to remove all screws holding the dishwasher to the cabinets, then undo drain from disposers, water and electrical supply just to pull the machine from under the counter, like we do it in America. If that's the primary mode of installation, it does make sense to make the pump easy to disassemble from inside the dishwasher cavity.
But I ask you to consider for a minute or so that in places where it's easy to swap machines in less that two minutes, one doesn't, or shouldn't consider other designs "idiotic" just because one needs to pull the machine out and possibly flip it to access the inside.
I, for example, never heard anyone complain about how difficult it is to pull a Maytag washer out, tilt it and change the belt, particularly when compared to machines where one has to remove the pump to change a belt. And I've seen technicians in other countries pull out a dishwasher, fix the pump impeller, put everything back in place and go in less time than it takes people here to remove the pump from inside the machine. And it'd prefer if people in places like that did not think Americans have and "idiotic" design. Each place adapted the best they could to the local norms and building codes.
Cheers,
-- Paulo.
Dishwashers in US do not use standard fittings: it depends on where you live and the local building codes. Eventually, it will converge into something similar to what Europe uses, but for now, even dishwashers *made* in Europe, like Siemens, Bosch, Miele, Asko etc, are more of a pain in the ass to install here than in their countries of origin. You should see what some people in California or Seattle go thru, including having to install a siphon break (AKA an "air gap") even if the machine doesn't *need* one because it has one built-in. Some localities force you to use a rigid copper pipe for the water supply. Other places force you to hardwire the machine.
The best analogy I can offer to American people: have you ever thought for a minute that it would take you a looong time to swap a clothes dryer or a clothes washer? No? It takes just a couple of minutes right?
That's precisely what our European friends are saying: when I lived abroad the technicians would show up at my house and have the machine out of the cabinets in a couple of minutes or less. The water supply is exactly the same as a washing machine, usually the drain connection has it's own standpipe and the machine is plugged in the nearest electrical outlet. Some machines are not "built in" like ours, they are free standing with casters, so you just make the connections and slide the machine under the cabinets and you are done.
Yes, it's a pain in the ass to have to remove all screws holding the dishwasher to the cabinets, then undo drain from disposers, water and electrical supply just to pull the machine from under the counter, like we do it in America. If that's the primary mode of installation, it does make sense to make the pump easy to disassemble from inside the dishwasher cavity.
But I ask you to consider for a minute or so that in places where it's easy to swap machines in less that two minutes, one doesn't, or shouldn't consider other designs "idiotic" just because one needs to pull the machine out and possibly flip it to access the inside.
I, for example, never heard anyone complain about how difficult it is to pull a Maytag washer out, tilt it and change the belt, particularly when compared to machines where one has to remove the pump to change a belt. And I've seen technicians in other countries pull out a dishwasher, fix the pump impeller, put everything back in place and go in less time than it takes people here to remove the pump from inside the machine. And it'd prefer if people in places like that did not think Americans have and "idiotic" design. Each place adapted the best they could to the local norms and building codes.
Cheers,
-- Paulo.
kenmoreguy89
Well-known member
I just say I would kill to have a dishwasher with a disposer, having dealt with european filtered dishwashers and currently keep seing them I here say they've generally nothing to do with the disposer kind ones for easyness and cleaning, tell all you want to, but they cleans better to me, and yes, in europe dishwashers since long now tend to have weak pumps lazy sprays, take forever and not clean well, now more than ever before...
I already said how unhappy I've been all these years after our 80s left us....
Now I am really happy with vintage indesit, even though being a filtered type all I needed was an actual washing action, not some random sprinkling on stuff modern US eco and european dishwashers averagely do from awhile now...
All clean and dry!
Oh and I finally see again some cups turned from the water if I don't block them like in the old days we had an almost functional machine, a thing I never saw with the 6+ machines I changed in these years!
I am quite unsure about certain affermations here, and what are mere ponts of view (outdating)..based on what??? Because of eco theories and what they tell you? The fashion? Ah ah!
I want my dishes clean!
Then, the matter is that while till few years ago in the US you had even the most BOL dishwashers with PV, powerful pumps and real washing that costed as much as 200 bucks or less and took the hell out of your dishes as the TOL models did (TOL just meant more features), now you've "modern"Eco dishwashers with filters costing on the several hundreds full of trinkets but of which though many people laments of about cleaning, and can't quite figure it out how's possible! Add to that longness of cycles etc...and here you have people unhappy. Infact is absurd for an american, in europe is now decades that it all is standard!
There're people happy with their TOL export Mieles and Bosch you'll say... well..not my uncles with their 900 bucks bosch anyway, and how does a Miele or Bosch cost???
Installation matter:
Yes, I can't really say that for an european the way dishwashers are installed in the US is weird! It is.
But it has it's reasons why.
Always remember that in the US the dishwasher "came" or became common in homes earlier than it did in generally in europe.
The US have much an earlier and much more commonnes of kitchen in blocks, customed kitchens and built in appliances than europe, and that's historically so.
So for built in or permanent installation there's just another attitude, and that is meant to be permament, unlike in Europe was.
That meant that while in Europe getting a dishwasher meant just put it under something or along other kitchen appliances, in the US it was just something you did put there and secured it.
Not a case in the US there's the distinction among portable dishwashers you'd connect and take away and permanent ones, this was for those not having built in, where in europe is such a thing? Nowhere! All dishwashers had to be sort of mobile for these reasons! So they were kind of hybrid in this sense and so remained.
In the US not.
Then of course comes funny exagerations such as those drain valves, building codes etc..but that's California and we now know US have a huge problem of nanny statism and this kind of laughable silly crap ....California more than other states.
About front servicing.
Now....there's not a most logical way of doing things, I see both the benefits of front servicing as well as being able to take the whole thing out, even though removing the pump from inside I think it's easier and avoid much troubles and damages to the machine paint etc...maybe also quicker than for european models where you have to open it...
But remember that was for specific reasons..copper pipes last longer, no need to change, no plugs that burns..etc..there is more like a permanent appliance mindset for built in, no need to move for clean, no stuff dropping behind etc..in europe instead there was and there still is another attitude a kind of mix for both portable and built in concepts.
I already said how unhappy I've been all these years after our 80s left us....
Now I am really happy with vintage indesit, even though being a filtered type all I needed was an actual washing action, not some random sprinkling on stuff modern US eco and european dishwashers averagely do from awhile now...
All clean and dry!
Oh and I finally see again some cups turned from the water if I don't block them like in the old days we had an almost functional machine, a thing I never saw with the 6+ machines I changed in these years!
I am quite unsure about certain affermations here, and what are mere ponts of view (outdating)..based on what??? Because of eco theories and what they tell you? The fashion? Ah ah!
I want my dishes clean!
Then, the matter is that while till few years ago in the US you had even the most BOL dishwashers with PV, powerful pumps and real washing that costed as much as 200 bucks or less and took the hell out of your dishes as the TOL models did (TOL just meant more features), now you've "modern"Eco dishwashers with filters costing on the several hundreds full of trinkets but of which though many people laments of about cleaning, and can't quite figure it out how's possible! Add to that longness of cycles etc...and here you have people unhappy. Infact is absurd for an american, in europe is now decades that it all is standard!
There're people happy with their TOL export Mieles and Bosch you'll say... well..not my uncles with their 900 bucks bosch anyway, and how does a Miele or Bosch cost???
Installation matter:
Yes, I can't really say that for an european the way dishwashers are installed in the US is weird! It is.
But it has it's reasons why.
Always remember that in the US the dishwasher "came" or became common in homes earlier than it did in generally in europe.
The US have much an earlier and much more commonnes of kitchen in blocks, customed kitchens and built in appliances than europe, and that's historically so.
So for built in or permanent installation there's just another attitude, and that is meant to be permament, unlike in Europe was.
That meant that while in Europe getting a dishwasher meant just put it under something or along other kitchen appliances, in the US it was just something you did put there and secured it.
Not a case in the US there's the distinction among portable dishwashers you'd connect and take away and permanent ones, this was for those not having built in, where in europe is such a thing? Nowhere! All dishwashers had to be sort of mobile for these reasons! So they were kind of hybrid in this sense and so remained.
In the US not.
Then of course comes funny exagerations such as those drain valves, building codes etc..but that's California and we now know US have a huge problem of nanny statism and this kind of laughable silly crap ....California more than other states.
About front servicing.
Now....there's not a most logical way of doing things, I see both the benefits of front servicing as well as being able to take the whole thing out, even though removing the pump from inside I think it's easier and avoid much troubles and damages to the machine paint etc...maybe also quicker than for european models where you have to open it...
But remember that was for specific reasons..copper pipes last longer, no need to change, no plugs that burns..etc..there is more like a permanent appliance mindset for built in, no need to move for clean, no stuff dropping behind etc..in europe instead there was and there still is another attitude a kind of mix for both portable and built in concepts.
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