Why Did Older Dishwasher Have Such Enormous Motors?

[norgeway]

I hate to admit

Anything new is worth anything, But John is right, I have a 2 year old GE dishwasher and yes it takes a long time, but it cleans perfectly, burned on casseroles etc come out spotless.

 

[appnut]

My Bosch will cease alternating wash arms and run both arms simultaneously for the majority of the main wash if it senses heavy soil.

 

[qsd-dan]

Yeah, I'm aware of longer cycles cleaning stubborn items. For years, I have posted pics my KDS-18 with an externally mounted switch to the timer motor that I can stall anywhere during the entire cycle. Thing is, stalling the timer just an extra 10 minutes or so during the wash cycle (pretty much doubling it) achieves the same results as hours on a newer dishwasher. It's extremely rare that I burn anything since I was never a fan of consuming hot foods or drinks.

BTW, the home I moved into almost 4 years ago came a Kitchenaid dishwasher from 2012 in the main kitchen. The KDS-18 resides in the kitchenette for occasional fun use now. It's quiet but sucks even with pots and pans with every single option selected. And that's on mechanically softened water. I make and eat a lot of homemade soups and it leaves residue all of the time, every time in my clear glass bowls. I never had that problem with 18 on very hard water and extremely short wash cycles before installing timer motor switch. I'm not worried about the residue as it's clean enough for me but I don't use those dishes when company is around. I'll take pics of my next load. My brother has virtually the identical dishwasher he bought brand new, just with top controls rather than front. I quickly understood why they rinse every dish under the kitchen faucet before putting it in the dishwasher. They get away with using the normal cycle using this method.

Noticed when I mention alternating arms, I said it quickly becoming the norm, not something newly released.

So John, when are swapping out your 80's Powerclean for a new dishwasher

 

[Chetlaham]

Dan, you bring up a good observation. Higher water pressure (mechanical energy) in a vintage machine can in theory achieve the same results as a modern machine but requiring less time.

With cool water Powercleans did that. At 8 minutes into the Main wash they would do a thermal hold until the water was heated to 140*F which extended the main wash considerably.

 

[qsd-dan]

With cool water Powercleans did that.

Agree, it was a good balance of power, fast time cycles, and clean results. A couple of other designs had the right balance too but the reliability wasn't there (mainly in the electronics), like some of Maytags post RR dishwashers.

Most users today want a dead silent machine and it's just not happening with a 1/3 HP motor. The EPA wants the machine to use a trickle of water and electricity which throws more obstacles into the game. Manufactures today want to build the platform as cheap as possible and have it last just past the warranty and die soon after to boost profits.

And here we are.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

to chetlaham

I will never forget when my mom said, "This dishwasher sucks!" Mind you, this was in 2008. There was crud stuck in the glasses in the corners, forcing us to use pots and pans and soak and scour for everything. This wasin the Whirlpool Gold dishwasher. My mom got a Kenmore back in 2011 which was the filter design and it did clean the glasses, shockingly. It was the new filtration design. the Whirlpool point voyager went to my dad who used it from 2013-2016. Sadly, nearly all dishwashers use that stupid alternating wash arm action, even Maytag. This is a sad state of affairs as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Chetlaham]

Sadly, all true Dan. Big motors are noisy and reduce capacity at face value- so few want them now. I say at face value in that while a tall tub can hold more dishes, nothing is gained with any type of scrubbing, pre-rinsing, or pre-washing as with so many of today's tall tubs.

 

 

Nothing can outperform a Whirlpool Power Clean Filter module. It is the true definition of loading baked on, dried on, nasty without any type of pre-treatment coming out spotless with minimum water and energy.

 

The following is what a real dishwasher looks like. Simple and cheap, energy efficient- yet long lasting lasting, no nonsense, and 100% clean.

 

40 minute main wash, heater runs the whole time to achieve temps in excess of 150*F, lots of pressure and water movement, plus the famous soil removal, retention and flush away of the PC module.

 

 

The fact that nothing like this has ever been built is everything that is wrong with the world.

 

 

Enjoy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chetlaham]

Real Dishwasher

Jerome, want a real results? You need several things:

 

 

1) Main wash water temps over 150*F, preferably 180-190*F.

 

2) Main wash times of at least 30 minutes, preferably longer.

 

3) water volume

 

4) water pressure

 

5) multi directional targeted water distribution

 

6) strong maceration

 

7) High capacity fine filter

 

8) particle flush away

 

9) Long heated detergent prewash (if needed)

 

Every dishwasher ever sold has been some combination of these 9, but never has anyone actually sold a dishwasher that managed to meet all 9 in the high notes despite being feasible with minimal engineering.

 

People are being sold jokes Jerome that always manage to come centimeters close to the itch but never actually scratch it, thats for sure. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gelaundry4ever]

to chetlaham

Sadly, most joes and janes don't care. As far as they're concerned, as long as they're silent, it's fine with them. I want to hear my dishwasher doing something at least spraying the water around. That's how I know it works. Period. This is why I wish dishwashers had clear glass windows.

 

[Chetlaham]

Well I think to a degree they do care- you've got folks pre-rinsing without fully realizing its a reaction to the fact most modern dishwashers (and even some old ones) just can't clean like a Power Clean Filter Module, Hobart Kitchen-Aid or Maytag JetClean. 

 

 

If everyone was like me the Power Clean Filter Module with the above wiring diagram and cycle sequence would probably dominate being in 98% of all Kitchens. I say probably, because chances are that Power Clean Module would be complimented with a water inlet temperature booster and a second set of fresh water spray arms as seen in commercial dish machines.

 

   

 

 

Ignore the the energy star label, its won't mean a thing in my world ROTFIL!!!!!!!

 

[johnb300m]

Oh look, another Lazarus thread….

 

[johnb300m]

#25

This dishwasher uses 13.2 gallons?
GTFH.
Nobody wants that anymore.
Even the toughest cycle on a late 90s Powerclean only used 11gal.
Enjoy pissing your electricity and water down the drain.

 

[maytag85]

Reply #30

You’ll use more water washing dishes by hand than if you were to use a dishwasher, even a dishwasher that uses a little over 13 gallons of water.

 

[qsd-dan]

This dishwasher uses 13.2 gallons?

My KDS-18 uses 16 gallons and it doesn't bother me in the least, especially when compared to running 45-47-ish gallons PER load in my 806 with it's modified spray rinse cycle.

Vintage water hogging dishwasher, vintage 4-5 gallon toilets, and vintage top loaders. Ya know what my water bill averages per month? $25-$30.

 

[Chetlaham]

13.2 Gallons

 

@johnb300m- Please I politely ask you to stop with the negativity. Post #29 adds nothing of value to the discussion.

 

 

Anyway, yes, the Heavy wash on this dishwasher does indeed use 13.2 gallons of water per cycle. The timer can be started in 3 places:

 

 

Heavy- 13.2 Gallons

 

Medium - 11 Gallons

 

Light - 8.8 Gallons  

 

None of these cycles waste water or electricity- on the contrary they save order of magnitude more water and electricty as there is no need to manually pre-rinse, prewash, soak, scrub, use the rinse and hold cycle, afresh cycle or the need to clean the machines filter. All that is taken and done by the machine.

 

The water ussage here is the ideal amount needed to realistically clean dishware unlike the DOE energy cycle which only takes water and energy usage at face value without evaluating actual performance short and long term. There is even an extra fill and drain in the rinse cycle to let the user generously dose on detergent worry free (if needed) and to aid in soil carry away post main wash. Dishes in this machine actually go in untouched besides scrapping. Water should never touch used plates until they are actually in the dishwasher.      

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[combo52]

Adding nothing to the discussion lol

Chet and Jerome You are in the classic Appliance thread where we talk about vintage appliances and problems. Everything you two guys have posted is just make believe it has nothing to do with anything.

U2 can talk among yourselves on the message board etc

This is not an attack on you guys personally, but the site is not intended for make-believe drawings, these things can go in the super forum if you’d like I suppose, but label it as make believe don’t try to act like this is a serious discussion, please

John

 

[Chetlaham]

@ John- cite the forum rules stating personally made or fair use drawings, pictures, re-productions, schematics, cycles, or modifications pertaining to vintage appliances shall not be posted or discussed on AW.org.      

 

 

@johnb300m:

 

I've got 3 BOL cycle sequences that use only 8.8 gallons of water- however unless you pre-rinse your dishes well I highly doubt you'd want to use any of these three cycles or have the same water going around for 30+ minutes even though you would probably still get good results with the Power Clean Filter Module. IMO you need extra water for pre-washing and pre-rinsing excessive soils associated with dishware that has not been pre-rinsed. 

 

Variant one, long heated rinse for best drying-

 



 

Variant two, shortened rinse- 

 



 

Variant three, long main wash for baked on soils, no time given for building thermal inertia in the rinse, heated dry increased by 6 minutes to compensate- 

 



 

Jerome let me know what you think and what you approve of.

 

 

 

[gelaundry4ever]

to chetlaham

I like them all.

 

[Chetlaham]

I worked hard on them, even had to do the math. My head hurts LOL. I'm glad you like and approve of them, that means a lot to me.

 

 

I think one of the best things would be getting rid of the thermal hold for a fixed period of heated time in both the prewash, mainwash and final rinse. This lets the water temps exceed 140*F, giving that true Potscrubber performance. It also increases reliability as I've read online threads where Power Clean timers would fail by stalling out at the thermal hold and not advance even when temperatures were satisfied. Ditching all the thermal hold wiring and switching to an energy efficient low vibration permanent split capacitor motor frees up contacts in both the 6 and 8 contact row timers for things like various indicator lights and staggered timed heat. A cycling contact can provide intermittent heat for China washes while a long duration close contact can provide Pot and Pans heating as similarly done with high end dura-wash dishwashers to achieve normal vs hi-temp options. Much less to go wrong. 

 

Option buttons will control heat, knob will control the number fills for MOL and up models.   

 

[qsd-dan]

Eh, thermal hold is a great idea, just make the components more robust so they don't fail as easy. I'm assuming it's the contacts that fail from being burned/pitted.

Thermal hold to 150F for wash cycles, final sani rinse 180F. That should be hardwired in and not de-selectable. A 180F final rinse eliminates the need for heated dry. Pop the door open after draining in the final rinse water and flash dry.