Why Do All Speed Queens Spray Rinse While Full of Water?

[Chetlaham]

At first I thought it was a fluke, simple timer specification error or water evacuation miscalculation on my Speed Queen. Then again I did turn up the water level on my machine, so maybe they were taking that into account the tub being only 2/3 full. So it would make sense why my machine always starts spraying water while the tub is about 1/3 full of water. Ok, makes sense. Kind of, but good enough.

However, looking at timer model, electronic, TC-5 and even TR machine the spray rinse always begins with the tub about 1/4 full of water. In fact when all variable are taken into account, it seems like Speed Queen deliberately programmed their machine to add water at exactly the point the tub dips to 1/5 water. This holds true for all cycles, including normal eco.

My question is why? Why not let the machine reach full spin speed and then do a 30 second spray rinse? Whilrpool, GE, Frigidaire, Maytag, ect all let the pump first start pulling in air even worse case scenario.

36:52 is a perfect example:



Ok, I get it, water was added to the tub and its only rags. 7:44, correct water level for the water, same thing:



15:28:



I can post 100+ videos of this exact same phenomenon in 12 different models over a 25 year production period.

My question is why? What benefit does it serve when the water doesn't even go through the clothes?

It gets weirder in that the tech sheets and service manuals relevant to timer models actually list the spray starting in the second increment or 3 minutes in yet all real life scenarios put the spray in the first increment at about 1 minute out from the start of the drain.

Is someone at Speed Queen making last minute changes behind the backs of engineers? I don't think a spray rinse should start so early.

 

[qsd-dan]

The only logical reason I can think of is that the early spray rinse washes some of the lint/hair off of the clothes before being pinned to the inner tub at full speed. Spray rinsing while the tub is trying to speed up is an overall bad idea in my personal opinion. It's hard on the belt for the models that use it for clutching and it's hard on the clutch/clutch packs. It certainly doesn't do the motor any good.

 

[Chetlaham]

IMHO I can't see 15 extra seconds of tub drag being that much compared to the 90 seconds of tub dragging during the drain. However, I do agree with you, I think it doesn't do much overall.

 

[ozzie908]

OK Dumb question coming up ...

Why use 2nd rinse when it then rinses out all the fabric softener you put in the dispenser? Would it not be better to add during the 1st rinse so it would be used in the last rinse?

 

[qsd-dan]

That's basically an issue with any top loader that uses a non electronically actuated fabric dispenser solenoid.

These machines also spray rinse on the final spin, something carried over from the belt drives. It probably rinses out a bit of the softener out as well.

 

[launderess]

"Why use 2nd rinse when it then rinses out all the fabric softener you put in the dispenser?"

One simple answer dryer fabric softener sheets.





American housewives and others who did laundry long had an issue with top loading automatic washing machines, use of liquid fabric softeners was either inconvenient or otherwise a bother. Once some clever chop came up with fabric softener sheets that could be used in dryers, problem was largely solved.

Would have to research further but believe for years now fabric softener sheets have outsold liquid or other washer based products.

From a design point of top loading washers, those spray rinses during final spin do serve a purpose I suppose. They certainly cut down on what might be less than optimal results from just one deep rinse.

Going back some top loaders sold in USA had option for second deep rinse. That seemed to have gone by the boards with sprays during final spin replacing. If research tells washing machine makers that consumers largely are going to use dryer sheets....

 

[mrboilwash]

Has someone here actually ever tried and succeeded to rinse out fabric softener from fabrics with plain water only?

 

[Chetlaham]

Spray Rinse In Last Spin

My guess is that in the event someone used to much detergent the spray rinse would knock down any remaining suds after the deep rinse. In turn reducing complaints of machines not rinsing well. Consumers don't know how machines work. Just the final product at the end. Whirlpool knew how to protect their brand image.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

spray rinsing while full

What were they thinking when Speed Queen spray rinsed laundry while on heavy duty when full of water? If you use fabric softener, it will cary over into the laundry detergent water! That doesn't make any common sense.

 

[Chetlaham]

Common Sense

Is only common to those who have it. Given Speed Queens attitude about the TR, theirs is lacking...

Whirlpool listens however. On their Coin-OP resource saver washer they actually do a full 2 minute drain before going into spin and spray rinsing incrementally.

 

[gelaundry4ever]

slow spin

I am so sick and tired of the slow spin on the heavy duty cycle before rinse. It doesn't get all the soapy water out! I have had no issues with drain pipe foam! What were they thinking?

 

[Chetlaham]

As someone once told me "the problem isn't what they think, its that they don't think"

I'm with you, my 2014 Queen drains on high, and there isn't any foaming in the drain pipe. I mean, isn't that why HE detergent now exists?

 

[gyrafoam]

I have a ten year old SQ that doesn't start spraying until the water is out. Very much like an old Maytag.

The old solid tub Kelvy's used to start a hot water spray the moment the first spin started that lasted well up to the tub reaching the top of the spin. One would think that would have created a lot of stress, but, they seemed to plough through without any issues. Consider how high-sudzing detergents were back then and the vigorous agitation of the Kelvy, and you would think it would all end up with sudz-lock, but, I never saw that.

 

[blockeight88]

This has always bothered me, as well. And those are two of my videos.

 

[combo52]

They spray water in as the machine is almost drained

To reduce the possibility of scum and lint on top the clothing, it also helps kill suds and cools the fabrics a little bit.

All spin drain machines have the potential to leave scum and lint plastered on clothing.

Conventional Speed Queen top load automatics sold in other countries often have neutral drain because they don’t use dryers and Speed Queen is aware of this problem with lint and scum on clothing.

 

[Chetlaham]

All the lint and scum I've seen made itself known in neutral drain washers. And it shows as it builds up on the water line of the agitator, inner tub and outer tub as a whole. I don't have scum lines on my Speed Queen and never saw them on GE FFs and Maytags. Whirlpools and post FF GEs tend to have thick calcified rings.

Setting up a cycle to spray at the exact instant the clothes become uncovered by water is a pointless effort in that to many variables come into play to achieve the desired results. Pump out time, loading, water level, tolerances, ect all come together resulting in either water entering the tub while still full or completely drained and fully accelerated.

Best time to spray rinse is 2 to 3 minutes after spin has started, this will be enough time to allow for a reasonable worse case pump out.

 

[combo52]

Chat you are amazing

With the problem of spin drain being mentioned in GE service manuals for Filter Flow washers, in service manuals for Maytag washers, in-service manuals for speed queen washers, and we all know what happened when Whirlpool tried to pull a fast one and make a spin and drain direct drive washer it was a disaster. Whirlpool was taking back washers left and right customers are returning them to Sears.

For all the reading and research you do and you can come up with a totally bizarre opinion of things this is why most people ignore your posts.

And because you’ve never listed any qualifications that you have, it really is just all emotional and that’s not the way engineering is done in this world.

Your constant childish obsession with one dial washers and machines that don’t even need thermostats etc. etc. it’s just ridiculous enjoy.

John Al

 

[Chetlaham]

That would be true- if I didn't have first hand experience laundering clothes.

Can you post pics or copy and paste these excerpts from all 3 companies?

I don't see people noticing when their DDs stop neutral draining, assuming they did in the first place.

Its not the one knobs I'm passionate about, but across the line induction motors which probably would have spared Maytag. Since you brought up thermostats you and I both know most GE dishwashers never had one (except in the motor) which was among one of the many cost and reliability measures which helped get them in millions of homes.

You're choosing to ignore facts. And like all to many tenured persons in 2022 you chose to ignore individual experiences by quipping 'you don't have the credentials I have' Well, that logic won't make you a better chef... Or get the TC series to clean clothes...

 

[Chetlaham]

Engineering Done In This World

I'll let the experts talk since I lack the credentials to opine:

"Dryers are simple, humble machines that do three things: tumble the clothes, get ‘em warm, and move a lot of air. Why would you want or even need an over-priced failure-prone “electronic control system” for a friggin’ dryer? I can almost understand it for a refrigerator or a gourmet oven, but a dryer? Putting an electronic control board in a dryer is like installing a GPS nav system on a kid’s tricycle. Enough! Stop the madness! Friends don’t let friends buy dryers loaded with over-blown electronic crap."

"You can usually tell you’re dealing with one of these puffed-up beasts (also sold under the Ken*** label) because it’ll have the words “Even Heat” somewhere on the control panel. This dryer is a perfect example of how buying appliances with needless and overblown electronics is hazardous to your financial health."

https://fixitnow.com/wp/2009/03/17/...problems-with-the-whirlpool-even-heat-dryers/

Tell me, what is gained here?

If modern day professional precept involves compelling engineers to invest tenacity into integrating unnecessary complexity into timeless, proven, wholly satisfactory simplicity you can bet your top dollar I'm going to challenge the inevitable shortcomings of those ideas. You can bet your career I'm going to ask questions and you can bet your reputation I'm going to dream up of a more realistic design. Ones that might appear childish, outlandish or ridiculous to you... even though they've already been proven a monster smash success over a 125 year period prior.

Which takes me back to Speed Queen. Its not bizarre to say my own personal experience involves less lint then the DD I had or that the spin spray starts to early.

 

[DADoES]

 
Love my dryer with electronic moisture sensing.  Very consistent results from load-to-load, lightweight to jeans, sheets to blankets.  No need to make a guess at drying time.  Choose a cycle per the appropriate temperature, Start, done.

 

[qsd-dan]

"With the problem of spin drain being mentioned in GE service manuals for Filter Flow washers, in service manuals for Maytag washers, in-service manuals for speed queen washers..."

I'd like to see evidence of that. I have all of the Maytag service manuals and it's not mentioned in any of them. I also have most of the "Lets Talk Service" manuals from the 50's through the 80's and it's not mentioned there either.

"and we all know what happened when Whirlpool tried to pull a fast one and make a spin and drain direct drive washer it was a disaster. Whirlpool was taking back washers left and right customers are returning them to Sears."

Robert has mentioned several times on this site that LEAKS were the reason for the shift of spin drain to neutral drains in DD's. It had nothing to do with lint. Robert claims to have that documentation on that. This comment can be seen here at Reply #18.

https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?50379

 

[maytag85]

Reply #20

Dan, I updated my email on AW since the one I had posted on here was one in haven’t used in awhile and didn’t realize until now it was an email I no longer use. The one that’s posted is the email I am now using since I sent myself an email earlier and received an email from myself. Apologies for the technical difficulties, not the most tech savvy person in the world, though. You can send a email from that address and will try to respond ASAP.

 

[Chetlaham]

@DoDoes: No offense to you, but you have fallen for it my very good friend!

The electronic control in question not only senses moisture, but also cycles the heaters through added relays, controls the motor, does the cycle signal, does the wrinkle guard, senses the outgoing temperature and determines cycle timing as a whole. Nearly all of the mechanical timers outputs are literally run through the control board itself.

This is not in any way Whirlpools dryness sensor card that can be bypassed by using the timed dry cycle. Rather this is a full blown control board with the mechanical timer acting as a decoy. There is no way around it.

Yes, the dryness card accomplishes what you're defending. However a full blown central control board, not so much.

In other words there is no way to escape

 

[DADoES]

 
I'm aware of those KA/KM/WP dryers with mechanical timers the EvenHeat board. 

 

[Chetlaham]

@qsd-dan: John is forgetting all the Maytag advertising and service literature that bragged about their "swirl away drain" Or that I've personally gone to Maytag Home Appliance centers (before the Whirlpool buy out) explicitly being told the advantages of spin-draining by the sales rep, many of whom also worked as service techs and store owners.

John's hubris is making the feel good (for him) assumption that just because I've never sold washers and I've never been a service technician for a living (and I have stated this numerous times on this forum) must mean I've never done laundry, read service manuals, collected tech sheets, done hundreds of hours of research, read patents, took thousands of machines apart, rebuilt a few or have fixed a few major appliances on the side for people that needed them. Which is peanuts compared to power and electronics engineering btw.

When I see modern appliances, my brain automatically flashes these blue and red lines. If you think its bizarre, I'll take that as a compliment

 

[Chetlaham]

Even Heat Boards

Any idea why Whirlpool began adding them to some of their dryers?

 

[combo52]

Spin drain versus neutral drain top load washers

Hi Dan in reference to reply Number 20 If you look at the GE service manuals when they change the whole pattern in the sides of the wash basket in the late 60s they talked about the reason they did this was to reduce the amount of streaking on dark colored clothing from lint and detergent residue.

 

It’s a fact that Speed Queen builds conventional top load washers for Australia and Canada with electric train pumps because people don’t use dryers there is often and they get more complaints about the streaking from spin draining.

 

Having been a Maytag tech for and availing myself to the factory training for over 30 years this was often talked about the lint redistribution problem it was not put in manuals very often but there are references to it.

 

Maytag redesigned the balance ring on the dependable care washers when they went to the new tub cover this was to prevent the water from splashing over the edge of the tub and back over the clothing over and over again this was talked about in service training.

 

You can also see in the sales literature for the Norge built Maytag washers where they claimed your clothing would be so much cleaner with less residue in it because of the way the Norge design machine pumps the water out so fast and spin slowly and doesn’t slog the water back through the clothing like the machines they had built for years.

 

. The most ridiculous claim is that whirlpool went to a neutral drain because the initial spin drain direct drive machines leaked.

 

You can look through the Whirlpool service pointers they were and never any leak problems with those machines. But again you would’ve had to have been there and worked with these machines whirlpool did not put a lot of information out about the problem with lint they don’t like to put things like that in print just as Maytag didn’t either because their competitors would make hay about it, but if you talk to the engineers you heard it all the time.

 

I was talking to my old boss last night and I told him what was written and he just had Howells of laughter about that they never had trouble with these machines leaking, my business partner also was just absolutely roaring with laughter when I told him that somebody’s going around saying that was the reason they went to a neutral drain.

 

Whirlpool would not have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars redesigning washing machines because they couldn’t make a seal that kept the tub cover from leaking if that’s where they supposedly leaked, There are probably many millions of direct drive washer‘s running right this minute all over this country that are no longer neutral draining and none of them are leaking.

 

I’m really disappointed that you would even repeat such a ridiculous story it doesn’t bode well for your mechanical reasoning skills.

 

John L

[this post was last edited: 10/10/2022-22:00]

 

[combo52]

Whirlpool built dryers with even heat control boards

Chet this is not for you this is for everybody else that’s wondering why they did this you already know all the answers.

Putting the sophisticated control board in these dryers not only allows very accurate moisture sencing which resulted in fluffy clothing that was not over dried it saved energy it was a big safety advantage because the dryer would not run any longer than necessary.

It’s one of the many things that Have made modern dryers so safe and so unlikely to start fires As well as reducing energy consumption wear and tear on the machine and clothing as well.

John L

 

[gelaundry4ever]

to chetlaham

This is exactly why HE detergents exist!

 

[Chetlaham]

Except what you describe can and is accomplished via a simple dryness card.

https://www.genuinereplacementparts...-885469-dryness-control-board-genuine-oem.jpg

I'm talking about the full blown control board I pictured.

Whirlpool did this in part to mitigate the temperature swings of the heater cycling on and off via a mechanical thermostat. Unlike a Breville Smart oven, no such gain exists with a dryer.