Work begins on the1957 Speed Queen TOL

combo52 · Jun 16, 2014

Speed Queen Fluid Drive Fluid

Jon are you sure the manual is not talking about the gear box lubricant?, all I know is these FD units always sounded like they had water in them when you shock them and they always worked fine. SQ used to sell a metal approximately pint sized can of fluid for these FD clutches.

jetcone · Jun 16, 2014

Here's something John

this is interesting:

[COLOR=#252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 22px]"Dexron VI is of a slightly lower viscosity when new compared to the prior Dexron fluids (a maximum of 6.4 cSt at 100°C for Dexron VI and 7.5 cSt for Dexron III)," from Wikipedia[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#252525; font-family: sans-serif]I think we are looking at Dexron III to cover the age of this washer. Using the bob chart you may be correct on the viscosity:[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#252525; font-family: sans-serif]a viscosity of 7.5 cSt translates to an engine oil of 20 wt and a gear oil of 80 wt which is lighter than what I put in.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#252525; font-family: sans-serif]Actually now that I think of it Royal Purple makes a 75 wt gear oil. and I've got some on hand. Maybe I'll start with that.[/COLOR]

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/

swestoyz · Jun 16, 2014

Your quest to figure out the correct fluid for the Fluid Drive has been an interesting read.

While the viscosity ratings of a gear oil may indicate that the 'weights' are similar to those that are automotive-like, I'd be weary of using it for this application. Unfortunately, I don't have science to back up my gut feel. The only supporting factors I have is my exposure to both types of oils. Gear oils just feel heavier to the touch (or stir), and pour much slower. Why go super fancy when others have had success with Zoom Spout?

The link I've included below is from a fan website, and they list the ratings of both Zoom Spout and 3n1 Motor Oil (20w, blue bottle). It seems that Zoom has a slightly lighter weight than the 3n1 Motor Oil. Personally, that's what I'd fill a Fluid Drive with.

Ben

Fan Lubricants

jetcone · Jun 16, 2014

Yes Ben

thank you for that information, I am beginning to concur. I was just reading the book "Which Oil" it talks about the history of all lubricants for automobiles from 1920 onwards. Its interesting to note gear oil of 75-80 wgt translates to engine oil of 20-30 wgt. So your Zoom Spout oil does fall into this category and so does Royal Purple at 75 wgt gear rating.

I will empty the fluid drive and refill with RP 75 wgt since it is guaranteed not to interfer with bronze or copper elements and I bet that fluid drive has copper inside it somewhere.

So independently from two different sources we have arrived at SAE 20-30 which translates to gear oil 75-80. John good thing you shook those fluid drives around back in the '60's!!

http://books.google.com/books?id=CgbOuFZx3vwC&lpg=PA73&ots=7y1H42y9tx&pg=PA73&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

swestoyz · Jun 16, 2014

While the viscosity rating may be the same on the scales, gear oil has a specific use vs. engine lubrication oil. Back when I could smell, the stench of 75w or 80w gear oil would drive me nuts. That tells me there is something there that isn't present in engine oil - they smell totally different. AMSOil put together a pretty interesting document on the subject:

Redirect Notice

Feel free to use what you want, I just wanted to provide some extra perspective from a guy who has changed plenty of gear oil from rear end differentials. I wouldn't let it come near a Fluid Drive or put it in a Turbo Hydramatic 400, just because the viscosity ratings were similar.

Ben

jetcone · Jun 16, 2014

Thats interesting Ben

so you would use the zoom spout oil? That seems to be the consensus. I don't think current transmission oil is formulated to protect yellow metals. I don't think yellow metals are even used in transmissions anymore. That has me worried, I expect there is bronze, brass or copper inside that fluid drive.

swestoyz · Jun 17, 2014

It would be fun to cut open a bad fluid drive at some point, to see what materials are inside. I bet it looks very similar to a torque converter or a very early fluid drive 'taurus' for a 50's Hydramatic transmission.

We've been using Zoom Spout and 3n1 Motor Oil to lubricate bronze bearings for quite a long time. I wouldn't imagine that it would interfere with yellow metals if it is recommended for bearing lubrication.

As for ATF/Dextron III, I'm not sure, either. It can be used (or even recommended, depending on the year) in GM power steering pumps, and I imagine that there are yellow metals present either in the pump itself, or steering box.

Ben

Unimatic1140 · Jun 17, 2014

Jon I've used Zoom Spout oil in my fluid drives for at least 10 years. I noticed that over the years the oil in the fluid drive seems to loose it's power as it get older. I'm not sure if the oil level somehow drops or if it has to do with the condition of the oil.

What I did in my 1957 model is I kept the motor and fluid drive installed in the machine, I remove the oil plug and fished the zoom spout hose down into the hole. Then I added the oil in approximately 1/8 cup squirts. After each squirt I would replace the plug and test the torque of spin pickup. I found it was best to add at least half the bottle into the drive. The 1957 model had a manual reset circuit breaker built in. At some point torque became so great that the circuit breaker pops. When that happens I know I had too much and I used the zoom spout hose and bottle to suck out a bit of the oil until the circuit breaker no longer pops.

This procedure made for a wonderfully working machine, no more lethargic spins. I found if the tub isn't at full spin speed within 60 seconds with a full load of water and heavy towels, the fluid drive is not giving enough torque and spin speed will probably be less than it should.

yogitunes · Jun 17, 2014

I totally agree with Robert about spin picking up within that time frame....I noticed more of a sluggish start off when using the gentle speed, that was a sure sign it needed some fluid added....

revvinkevin · Jun 17, 2014

Hmmm... it sounds like it's time to do an "oil change" in the fluid drive on my Speed Queen and I'm definately going to use Zoom Spout turbine oil in it!

It seem to take quite a while to reach full speed during spin and if I do a "manual spray rinse" as it's spinning, the tub slows down significantly!

Thanks for all the great info guys!

Kevin

akronman · Jun 17, 2014

I should have asked way up the thread:

the third switch across the top------TIME, 11 4 2

Did this model's timer RapidAdvance thru the wash agitation? How did this work?

mrb627 · Jun 17, 2014

Good Question...

And is there a number missing on the lower left? Perhaps a 5 or 5.5 or 6?

I suppose the numbers on the time dial refer to the number of gallons dispensed during the was fill.

Inquiring Minds wanna know!?!

Malcolm

Unimatic1140 · Jun 17, 2014

Kevin I've never changed the oil in my fluid drives, I've only added to it. While I suspect it will be fine, I've never tested an entire charge of Zoom Spout oil in there.I think the mix of the two works quite well. At least it hasn't caused any problems. I would start with just adding zoom spout oil, as I said you might need as much as a 1/2 bottle or more. You should see a marked improvement in not only throwing the water faster, but in top speed as spin as well.

Malcolm the agitation time switch is shows four numbers, 11 or 7 for the Normal cycle and 4 or 2 for the Short cycle. If you select 7 or 2, the washer pauses every few increments and just soaks the clothes. The wash time is still 11 minutes in the Normal Cycle, but it does not agitate for the entire time if the lower time is selected.

revvinkevin · Jun 17, 2014

OK thank you Robert, I'll give that a try!

Kevin

jetcone · Jun 17, 2014

Thanks Robert for the information

I forget where I used to buy zoom spout oil. I think it was my local HW store.

Now isn't that interesting Zoom Spout oil is ISO 32 which translates to 75W Gear oil !!! Fascinating because one of the RP oils is rated at 75W too !
Transmission fluid is thicker than both of these oils so you definitely don't want to use that! And that MobilGear stuff I was gonna try is Wayyyyy to thick !

SAE 10W non detergent oil looks like a good candidate too.

Interesting that if Robert put too much zoom in the fluid drive would lock up too soon. So that tells me the original oil would have been a little lighter than ISO 32 Zoom Spout oil.

Each bootle is 4 ozs so you are adding 2 ozs on top of whats already in there. I pulled out 3/4 cup of oil. 3/4 = 6 ozs so guessing the original fill was 8 0zs = 1 cup.

[this post was last edited: 6/17/2014-21:07]

washman · Jun 17, 2014

Gosh this suspense is killing me!

Oh how I wait for it all to be reassembled, plugged in, and churning away!

supersuds · Jun 17, 2014

FWIW

It might or might not be relevant to note that Chrysler's Fluid Drive transmission (made in various forms from 1939 to 1954) works on the same principle. It uses a 10W non-detergent oil and the manuals say the fluid coupling is only supposed to be filled to 80%, otherwise performance suffers.

A period article quoted at the link says: “Contrary to popular supposition any attempt to use a higher viscosity fluid would actually reduce the torque transmitting ability of the coupling since torque-transmission is dependent upon a high circulation of fluid between the impeller and runner and is not caused by any viscous drag between the two.”

All of that seems to be consistent with what John L and Robert say about viscosity and overfilling.

http://www.desoto.org/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3641

jetcone · Jun 18, 2014

Very interesting Super

thanks for pointing that out! I always was taught it was the lock up of the the two turbine blades that was crucial but this article points differently.

Here is the article in its entirety for the club:

Technical Note on MOPAR Fluid Couplings

(Fluid Torque Couplings are NOT covered by this Technical Note)

By James Douglas – San Francisco (2009)

 

 

 

Having run several types of oil in MOPAR “Fluid Couplings” over the years and heard many recommendations, I decided to see if I could approach the issue of what lubricant to use in one of MOPAR’s Fluid Couplings by a more scientific method.

 

As is well known, Chrysler instructed all owners to use “MOPAR Fluid Drive Fluid” only in their Fluid Couplings. Problem is, MOPAR stopped making it decades ago.

 

My first stop was Chrysler Historical. After a month of looking, I was told that they do not have any of the original engineering information as to the specifications of the fluid.

 

Then I headed off into internet land to hunt down anything I could find on the subject from ORIGINAL sources. I managed to find an original Chrysler Question and Answer sheet from 1939 about fluid drive from Chrysler Engineering. In it they stated:

 

“…The proper fluid is a low viscosity mineral oil, which also servers to lubricate the bearing enclosed in the coupling. The pour point is such that the oil will pour at the lowest anticipated temperature, and has no corrosive effect on the steel parts of the unit.”

 

All well and nice, but not enough to figure out exactly what they used as fluid. Later in the same document they talk about the types of metal used and the carbon-graphite seal. Hum, carbon-graphite seal. 

 

I did some more digging for a few months and turned up a can of unopened original MOPAR Fluid Drive Oil.

 

An analysis of that oil, and some more literature I ran across, stated that the original fluid was a pure-base mineral oil with a Saybolt Viscosity of between 100 and 150. The fluid had a Viscosity Index (NOT the same thing a general viscosity) of greater than 80. 

 

The fluid had anti-foaming and anti-oxidation additives. It specifically did NOT have any seal swelling agents as these can attack the carbon-graphite seal and the copper in the bellows. This last specification eliminates most modern transmission fluids.

 

After finding several formulas to convert Saybolt Viscosities to Kinematic Viscosities, it appears that the best match to the original specification is ISO 22 or ISO 32 oil.

 

However, the ISO 22 is just below 100 Saybolt and the ISO 32 is much higher than 100 Saybolt.

 

Based on a period (c.1947) Lubrication Industry article on fluid couplings that had the following admonishment: 

 

“Contrary to popular supposition any attempt to use a higher viscosity fluid would actually reduce the torque transmitting ability of the coupling since torque-transmission is dependent upon a high circulation of fluid between the impeller and runner and is not caused by any viscous drag between the two.”

 

During my continued research on the history of the Fluid Coupling, I ran across the fact that the original company that licensed the fluid coupling technology to Chrysler is still in business and still making fluid couplings for industrial applications. 

 

After a couple of weeks of digging, I found a senior engineer from that company that would have a long technical talk with me on fluid couplings. In essence, he agreed with the period information I quoted above. He added that the lowest viscosity oil that would still provide for bearing lubrication is the one to use in theory. However, he did say that unless the fluid coupling bearing has been replaced and is know to be very high quality then err on the heavy side viscosity wise. Just don’t over do it, he stated.

 

I was also told that normal hydraulic fluid does not have large amounts of anti-foaming agents in them as they usually do not have large amounts of air in the systems to foam in the first place. 

 

A fluid coupling is only filled to 80% and as such has lots of air in it.

 

Therefore, when looking for fluid coupling oil, one must look for an oil that is a “Circulating Oil” which has a lot of anti-foaming additives in it.

 

I was also informed that the additives tend to have a shelf life in the can, or in use, of 5 to 7 years and it should be changed at that time.

 

I was also told that the couplings are actually somewhat permeable and water vapor will work its way into and then back out, when hot, of a steel fluid coupling. Very little amounts, but apparently is does go on.

 

I was also told to never use engine oil or ATF as both would cause problems in the long run.

 

Based on the research and discussions I have come to the conclusion that ISO 32 hydraulic oil with the proper additives and VI (Viscosity Index) above 80 is a suitable replacement for the original MOPAR fluid drive fluid. ISO 22 would be a better exact match, but only if the quality and condition of the bearing is know in a particular coupling.

 

The oil I have identified that meets the specification, with a higher general viscosity to deal with the age of the bearings, is: Mobile DTE light circulating oil ISO 32. This oil is available at Granger. 

 

I have run this oil for about six months in San Francisco city traffic as well as up steep mountains on very hot days. The coupling works well. I have noticed, and other car people have as well, that the car seems to move out from a dead stop to 10 MPH better with the fluid. Only a before and after session on a dynamometer would tell for sure, but I feel that it moves out much faster.

 

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Classic car owners are advised to use this information at their own risk. I am not a fluid coupling engineer, a bearing engineer, or a lubrication engineer. I have done my best to find out what was in the original MOPAR Fluid Drive Fluid. This effort is in essence industrial archeology and should be carefully considered prior to use.

jetcone · Jun 18, 2014

In with the new

out with the old!

jetcone · Jun 18, 2014

I concur with Roberts findings

using the EASY which is identical to the SQ drive a full tub of water and sheets takes 60 seconds to empty and spin up to speed. So that will be a good benchmark when Willie gets going again!

Work begins on the1957 Speed Queen TOL

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