Work begins on the1957 Speed Queen TOL

[jetcone]

Oh Robert that would be

lovely thank you!

 

Mike I am just now getting familiar with the SQ line. I am not sure but I think some of the wringers had 210 Arc-Cuate transmissions. I looked in Doctrine and found the same type of transmission and some gears have the same part numbers. 

 

Andrew thanks for the chart it will help everyone. I see the ISO 460 is heavier than gear oil at 90, 460 slides over to 140. So the Royal Purple 145 would work as well as the Mobilgear 460.

Thank you!

I ponied up for the Mobilgear 460 so this machine should end up with the proper slip in the fluid drive!!

 

 

Ughhhh High Vane action in Eddie's machine! See how the high vane doesn't let dirt escape from the bottom of the tub all the way up to the top!

 

 

 

[this post was last edited: 6/10/2014-07:38]

http://https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnxwIAoomTA

 

[washman]

jetcone how are things coming along?

Will you have it up and running soon?

 

[jetcone]

I hope to Ben

the gear oil is due in tomorrow for the fluid drive. Replacement should be 20 minutes. I just removed all the panels last nite so that belt tensioning will be easier. Its process with the three belt machines. But I took a gander down in the outer tub, couldn't find the remains of the sediment tube so someone has been in there and cleaned it out. 

I did see some rust in the outer tub so now I am thinking of pulling the tub to address that, I'd sleep better.

 

It sure is pretty all naked and cabinet-less !

 

[jetcone]

Rust was spotted in the outer tub

The prior owner had mentioned the tub not holding water he thought. So further disassembly was required. Fortunately all bolts cooperated. I found one bolt to be plain steel not brass and was really scared to try to remove that but it came free, and it was not completely turned down. So it could have been the leak culprit.

 

Normally the leak culprit is the infamous "sediment tube" which is the reason I was investigating the outer tub. Usually it breaks off and is flung to the bottom of the tub which is why the tub no longer holds water. This occurred in the 1956 Easy I did last year. 

 

I was gobsmacked to find the tube STILL in place and not corroded!! See the photographic evidence for yourselves!

 

We did discover that the tub is a later model the clothes guard was the telltale culprit there.

But I did find pin holes in the outer tub so this may have been the leak Ken was referring too. Off to patch and repair - oh and of course replace that nasty steel bolt with SS or hopefully Brass !! 

 

Also a good cleaning was in order, Come on people! Even a 57 year old washer will need to be cleaned to help it along !!

 

 

[jetcone]

Whats odd is

the sediment tube was installed with the exit top jammed right up against the tub rim so that it never worked from day one!

 

The tub passed the water test below the bolt holes so the tub gasket is good= HOLLA!

 

You can see that in the photos above. 

 

 

 

[jetcone]

Now for some deep lubrication

Greg was right this is a newer center post - lucky me! It has the plastic bearing on top and better water seal for the agitate shaft. 

So I pushed the envelop for later repairs! I soaked the tub bolts all last nite in PB Rust Blaster - HOLLA!

So today with careful prodding they ALL came free from the aluminum center post and I was able to clean them all and lube with NEVA SIEZE - my secret reassembly weapon!

 

And Kleen Tubs are Happy Tubs - see the photographic evidence for yourselves !

 

 

[jetcone]

You can see the blackening of the rust in pic #4

I used Extend on rust to halt it, it acts overnite turning rust black. Where you see red it has no effect but that means the rust is also not exposed to water yet so its under the wire so to speak. Extend will put a coating on that as well. Next the pin holes will be plugged with plumbers epoxy for forever sealing.

 

 

[washman]

keep on keeping on jetcone

I watch this thread each day and cannot wait until you have it all back together. Be sure to get extensive footage, if you are able, up on youtube for all to see.

 

[rickr]

Great job Jon! You will have that Speed Queen ready in no time!

 

[jetcone]

Thanks Rick

much appreciated.

 

Today I changed the fluid drive oil, it was like water after 57 years nothing like new transmission fluid. Also reemed out the tub support plate, and sealed the pin hole leaks in the outer tub with 2 part epoxy. 

 

It appears the fluid drive takes 3/4 cup of magic fluid. Look at the difference 57 versus new looks like.

 

I found out today her motor has thrown her hi speed coils so only low speed works, took a gander at the control console and sure enough it is set to LOW. 
Thank heavens Larry has parts-in-stock® !! A new motor is rolling this way. However Turquoisedude is going to help me rebuild the original Packard motor I 'd really like this machine to stay all original and have a spare too. 

 

 

 

 

 

[toploader55]

Good Lord !!!

You are amazing.

 

[jetcone]

Hugs and kisses

Eddie!
Oo and a lobster roll.....

 

[jetcone]

Mike I totally spaced on your question

yes I too noticed the date stamp of 4 - 10 - 21 . It can't be an actual date as the transmissions for the wringers were longer and had an extra area where the gearing went up to the wringer. 

But the trannys are similar in every other way and some of the gear part numbers are the same too.

 

I don't have experience with wringers so maybe someone else can answer that question???

 

[combo52]

Speed Queen Fluid Drive Fluid

Is supposed to be like water, these used a very light oil much like automatic transmission fluid, ONLY LIGHTER.

I predict that if you put a heaver oil in this it will either cause the motor to stay in the start winding and maybe trip the motors overload protector, or cause the belt to slip or, ruin the friction coupler under the FD clutch.

I am waiting for the video.

 

[jetcone]

We'll see

Doctrine calls for viscolite HH. which is SAE93, gear oil is SAE90. SAE90 is thicker than water so SAE93 will be even thicker. I think thats what the clutch is for under the  fluid drive.

The fluid has to be thick enough that the drive will reach lock up in order to transmit all the power to the tub.

John I would never compare transmission fluid to water but I would compare 3 in1 oil to water.

 

 

 

 

[this post was last edited: 6/16/2014-07:14]

 

[mayfan69]

Fluid drive oil

Hi Jon

 

Not sure if this helps at all, but my Simpson Fluid Drive manuals state: "oil content is 270 c.c of 'Toledo Oil', which is a product of Mobil Oil Co." This was for the earliest Simpson machines in the 1950's and 60s.

 

My later manual for the 1970's models state: "270 cc of 'Teleo Oil' (Vacuum Oil Co.)"

 

Not sure if any of that makes sense.

 

Cheers

Leon 

 

 

[washman]

Can't wait to see this machine running

keep us posted on progress.

Long live the Arc-Cuate 210!

 

[jetcone]

Leon

thats interesting! Thank you another lead I'll investigate.

Jon

 

 

[this post was last edited: 6/16/2014-09:07]

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENINDMOMobil_DTE_Oil_Double_Letter.aspx

 

[washman]

Found a fluid drive unit

on ebay canada.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Speed-Queen-Fluid-Drive-PN-24706-/301093645358

 

[combo52]

Speed Queen Fluid Drive Fluid

Jon are you sure the manual is not talking about the gear box lubricant?, all I know is these FD units always sounded like they had water in them when you shock them and they always worked fine. SQ used to sell a metal approximately pint sized can of fluid for these FD clutches.

 

[jetcone]

Here's something John

this is interesting:

 

[COLOR=#252525; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 22px]"Dexron VI is of a slightly lower viscosity when new compared to the prior Dexron fluids (a maximum of 6.4 cSt at 100°C for Dexron VI and 7.5 cSt for Dexron III)," from Wikipedia[/COLOR]

 

[COLOR=#252525; font-family: sans-serif]<span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 22px;">I think we are looking at Dexron III to cover the age of this washer. Using the bob chart you may be correct on the viscosity:[/COLOR]</span>

 

[COLOR=#252525; font-family: sans-serif]<span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 22px;">a viscosity of 7.5 cSt translates to an engine oil of 20 wt and a gear oil of 80 wt which is lighter than what I put in.[/COLOR]</span>

[COLOR=#252525; font-family: sans-serif]<span style="font-size: 14px; font-weight: normal; line-height: 22px;">Actually now that I think of it Royal Purple makes a 75 wt gear oil. and I've got some on hand. Maybe I'll start with that.[/COLOR]</span>

 

 

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/

 

[swestoyz]

Your quest to figure out the correct fluid for the Fluid Drive has been an interesting read. 

 

While the viscosity ratings of a gear oil may indicate that the 'weights' are similar to those that are automotive-like, I'd be weary of using it for this application.  Unfortunately, I don't have science to back up my gut feel.  The only supporting factors I have is my exposure to both types of oils.  Gear oils just feel heavier to the touch (or stir), and pour much slower.  Why go super fancy when others have had success with Zoom Spout? 

 

The link I've included below is from a fan website, and they list the ratings of both Zoom Spout and 3n1 Motor Oil (20w, blue bottle).  It seems that Zoom has a slightly lighter weight than the 3n1 Motor Oil.  Personally, that's what I'd fill a Fluid Drive with.

 

Ben

http://www.fancollectors.org/info/Lubrication.htm

 

[jetcone]

Yes Ben

thank you for that information, I am beginning to concur. I was just reading the book "Which Oil" it talks about the history of all lubricants for automobiles from 1920 onwards. Its interesting to note gear oil of 75-80 wgt translates to engine oil of 20-30 wgt. So your Zoom Spout oil does fall into this category and so does Royal Purple at 75 wgt gear rating.

 

I will empty the fluid drive and refill with RP 75 wgt since it is guaranteed not to interfer with bronze or copper elements and I bet that fluid drive has copper inside it somewhere.

 

So independently from two different sources we have arrived at SAE 20-30 which translates to gear oil 75-80. John good thing you shook those fluid drives around back in the '60's!!

 

 

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=Cg...2y9tx&pg=PA73&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[swestoyz]

While the viscosity rating may be the same on the scales, gear oil has a specific use vs. engine lubrication oil.  Back when I could smell, the stench of 75w or 80w gear oil would drive me nuts.  That tells me there is something there that isn't present in engine oil - they smell totally different.  AMSOil put together a pretty interesting document on the subject:

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...uOJRkXKzYc-SRZrnkJhfIdQ&bvm=bv.68911936,d.aWw
 

Feel free to use what you want, I just wanted to provide some extra perspective from a guy who has changed plenty of gear oil from rear end differentials.  I wouldn't let it come near a Fluid Drive or put it in a Turbo Hydramatic 400, just because the viscosity ratings were similar.

 

Ben

 

[jetcone]

Thats interesting Ben

so you would use the zoom spout oil? That seems to be the consensus. I don't think current transmission oil is formulated to protect yellow metals. I don't think yellow metals are even used in transmissions anymore. That has me worried, I expect there is bronze, brass or copper inside that fluid drive.

 

 

 

[swestoyz]

It would be fun to cut open a bad fluid drive at some point, to see what materials are inside.  I bet it looks very similar to a torque converter or a very early fluid drive 'taurus' for a 50's Hydramatic transmission.

 

We've been using Zoom Spout and 3n1 Motor Oil to lubricate bronze bearings for quite a long time.  I wouldn't imagine that it would interfere with yellow metals if it is recommended for bearing lubrication. 

 

As for ATF/Dextron III, I'm not sure, either.  It can be used (or even recommended, depending on the year) in GM power steering pumps, and I imagine that there are yellow metals present either in the pump itself, or steering box.

 

Ben

 

[Unimatic1140]

Jon I've used Zoom Spout oil in my fluid drives for at least 10 years. I noticed that over the years the oil in the fluid drive seems to loose it's power as it get older. I'm not sure if the oil level somehow drops or if it has to do with the condition of the oil.

What I did in my 1957 model is I kept the motor and fluid drive installed in the machine, I remove the oil plug and fished the zoom spout hose down into the hole. Then I added the oil in approximately 1/8 cup squirts. After each squirt I would replace the plug and test the torque of spin pickup. I found it was best to add at least half the bottle into the drive. The 1957 model had a manual reset circuit breaker built in. At some point torque became so great that the circuit breaker pops. When that happens I know I had too much and I used the zoom spout hose and bottle to suck out a bit of the oil until the circuit breaker no longer pops.

This procedure made for a wonderfully working machine, no more lethargic spins. I found if the tub isn't at full spin speed within 60 seconds with a full load of water and heavy towels, the fluid drive is not giving enough torque and spin speed will probably be less than it should.

 

[yogitunes]

I totally agree with Robert about spin picking up within that time frame....I noticed more of a sluggish start off when using the gentle speed, that was a sure sign it needed some fluid added....

 

[revvinkevin]

 

 

Hmmm... it sounds like it's time to do an "oil change" in the fluid drive on my Speed Queen and I'm definately going to use Zoom Spout turbine oil in it!

 

It seem to take quite a while to reach full speed during spin and if I do a "manual spray rinse" as it's spinning, the tub slows down significantly!

 

Thanks for all the great info guys!

 

Kevin

 

[akronman]

I should have asked way up the thread:

the third switch across the top------TIME, 11 4 2

Did this model's timer RapidAdvance thru the wash agitation? How did this work?