90 minutes later, looking good. 31F in the refrigerator @ #7 on the cold control, 5F in the freezer @ #5 on the cold control.
1966 General Electric Spacemaker 19 Refrigerator MOD. TCF19DBC P.2
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90 minutes later, looking good. 31F in the refrigerator @ #7 on the cold control, 5F in the freezer @ #5 on the cold control.
Nice and cold.
Compressor cycling on and off normally. However the condenser fan has not cycled off yet. I was under the impression that if the compressor cycles off, the condenser fan does too.
Compressor cycling on and off normally. However the condenser fan has not cycled off yet. I was under the impression that if the compressor cycles off, the condenser fan does too.
Wow!
It's beautiful! I'm looking forward to hearing that it is running smoothly and cycling on and off as it should.
How does energy usage compare to a modern refrigerator?
Sarah
It's beautiful! I'm looking forward to hearing that it is running smoothly and cycling on and off as it should.
How does energy usage compare to a modern refrigerator?
Sarah
Yay Running again, The condenser fan motor is supposed to be wired with the compressor so it shuts off and runs only with the compressor.
I am still a little concerned about the almost 5 amp draw, did you try adding a compressor run capacitor ?
Energy consumption ? This ref when running properly according to the GE service Manuel will use about 154 KWs of power a month, that's 3 times what a modern FF 20 CF ref uses, the good news is that many vintage refs this size like Amana, WP-CS, Admiral, Philco use almost 200 KWs for a Similar size ref.
John L.
I am still a little concerned about the almost 5 amp draw, did you try adding a compressor run capacitor ?
Energy consumption ? This ref when running properly according to the GE service Manuel will use about 154 KWs of power a month, that's 3 times what a modern FF 20 CF ref uses, the good news is that many vintage refs this size like Amana, WP-CS, Admiral, Philco use almost 200 KWs for a Similar size ref.
John L.
Thanks Sara. Except for the condenser fan issue, it continues to cool just fine. As for power consumption, it must be a lot higher than a modern refrigerator. However, that may be a mute point if you have to replace the modern one every 3 years with a new one. Anyone want to wager how many LG's will be running 20 years from now?
Hi John! I basically reconnected everything how it was originally. I guess somewhere I miswired the condenser fan. I will be doing a schematic showing exactly what I did and hopefully correct this. The running amp. draw is 4.9. I did not install a running capacitor at this time. Power draw is hovering around 329 watts while compressor is running. So far I haven't been able to find the normal watt usage for this particular model. So I don't know if what I am reading is within the normal range. The refrigerator is located in an area where the ambient temperature never goes beyond 75F.
I made a slight repositioning of the wire coming from the Guardette to the relay. It was originally plugged into the bottom right tab (1), now it is located on the tab directly above.
This is in preparation of installing a run capacitor.
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I plugged in the run capacitor. Amp load was plummeting down to 3.9. Then it began to climb quickly to about 6.1. I was unplugging the refrigerator when a flash, then click. I removed the run capacitor and reconnected everything as it was. Compressor will not turn on. So I either burned out the Guardette or the start relay. The fun never ends.
What I did:
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Louis .....
By your pictures it appears you are connecting the run cap to the wrong side of the relay coil at point "A". Needs to be at point "B". The "M" side of the coil, not the "L".
Did the guardette pop? If it is the type that has the internal heater, you'll have to wait till it cools and resets, else it is the thermal fuse type and has to be replaced if it pops.
By your pictures it appears you are connecting the run cap to the wrong side of the relay coil at point "A". Needs to be at point "B". The "M" side of the coil, not the "L".
Did the guardette pop? If it is the type that has the internal heater, you'll have to wait till it cools and resets, else it is the thermal fuse type and has to be replaced if it pops.
It may very well be connected not-per-drawing; however I would not expect this to have caused a flash-bang sort of incident. I would look closely at the relay's internal wiring. It may or may not be feasible to connect it per the drawing with this exact relay. It seems that the right-side pin on the compressor is the R terminal, and the relay coil winding goes into the socket for this pin, without any provision to connect an external wire. There may be no alternative but to connect it as you had it, with the capacitor current going through the coil. The relay has a 9 amp pickup, so it shouldn't have been activated by the small current from the relay.
It would be a good idea to test the capacitor with a meter (having capacitance test mode) as well as testing for shorts in the capacitor.
If the capacitor shorts, the effect will be the same as the start-relay staying in start mode. That would cause high current and a tripping of the overload.
The capacitor and motor winding form a resonant circuit. The voltage on the capacitor can build up to a higher voltage than the motor's supply voltage. Depending on the design of the motor and capacitor, it could have very well exceeded the voltage rating of that super-cheap plastic capacitor.
If the cap is failed now, that would be something I would look into for the next one. They sell standard voltage ranges with 250 being followed by something in the high 300 to 400V range.
All of this depends on the motor's winding design and size of the capacitor. If someone else has done this and knows, hopefully they speak up. If not then the only way to know is to test and measure.
Here is a selection of caps which could possibly suit the bill: https://www.grainger.com/search?searchBar=true&searchQuery=run+capacitor+15uF
Regardless, after everything cools off, the circuit breaker should reset. Unless something shorted to ground, or to the motor's C terminal, the capacitor failure could not have created a direct short which could damage the Guardette. It could have only created an overload condition by the start and run windings in effect at the same time, which would cause the Guardette to trip; and then require a delay before it works again.
Don't give up!
It would be a good idea to test the capacitor with a meter (having capacitance test mode) as well as testing for shorts in the capacitor.
If the capacitor shorts, the effect will be the same as the start-relay staying in start mode. That would cause high current and a tripping of the overload.
The capacitor and motor winding form a resonant circuit. The voltage on the capacitor can build up to a higher voltage than the motor's supply voltage. Depending on the design of the motor and capacitor, it could have very well exceeded the voltage rating of that super-cheap plastic capacitor.
If the cap is failed now, that would be something I would look into for the next one. They sell standard voltage ranges with 250 being followed by something in the high 300 to 400V range.
All of this depends on the motor's winding design and size of the capacitor. If someone else has done this and knows, hopefully they speak up. If not then the only way to know is to test and measure.
Here is a selection of caps which could possibly suit the bill: https://www.grainger.com/search?searchBar=true&searchQuery=run+capacitor+15uF
Regardless, after everything cools off, the circuit breaker should reset. Unless something shorted to ground, or to the motor's C terminal, the capacitor failure could not have created a direct short which could damage the Guardette. It could have only created an overload condition by the start and run windings in effect at the same time, which would cause the Guardette to trip; and then require a delay before it works again.
Don't give up!
I'm thinking ....
David is on to something when he says the resonant voltage may have been greater than the cap rating.
The resonant voltage may have caused the relay coil to energize .... turning on the start windings during runtime .... causing the overload to pop.
It sounds as though it worked for a minute with the current measured at 3.9amps which is lower than the usual 5 amps without the run cap.
So yes, depending on the internal wiring of the relay, it may be difficult to add the required taps at points M and S of the relay to incorporate the run cap.
If you are able to add the required taps, I would try this cap instead.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Run-Cap-15...Run-Oil-Filled-Capacitor-uf-HVAC/401850106185
I agree, don't give up. [this post was last edited: 9/8/2019-09:54]
David is on to something when he says the resonant voltage may have been greater than the cap rating.
The resonant voltage may have caused the relay coil to energize .... turning on the start windings during runtime .... causing the overload to pop.
It sounds as though it worked for a minute with the current measured at 3.9amps which is lower than the usual 5 amps without the run cap.
So yes, depending on the internal wiring of the relay, it may be difficult to add the required taps at points M and S of the relay to incorporate the run cap.
If you are able to add the required taps, I would try this cap instead.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Run-Cap-15...Run-Oil-Filled-Capacitor-uf-HVAC/401850106185
I agree, don't give up. [this post was last edited: 9/8/2019-09:54]
First of all, thank you Bud and David for all your help and advice. I deeply appreciate it.
After a few hours of the refrigerator being disconnected, I plugged it in again to see whether the Guardette had reset. Apparently it's toast. The refrigerator just clicks every 30 seconds or so. Everything else seems to be running. I have not tested it with a multi-meter yet, but I will shortly. As for the starter relay, it was plugged into the correct pins of the compressor.
IF, I can still use a run capacitor, which tabs on the capacitor would go to the starter relay?
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Hmm...
The MARS 35012 tests OK. Resistance is 0.1 of resistance.
The original Guardette tested OK as well @ 0.1.
The GEM start relay is reading 0.3 ohms.
The original GE starter relay reads 1.2 ohms.
Compressor is good too with readings from 5.5 to 3.1 ohms
So why the compressor does not start?
The MARS 35012 tests OK. Resistance is 0.1 of resistance.
The original Guardette tested OK as well @ 0.1.
The GEM start relay is reading 0.3 ohms.
The original GE starter relay reads 1.2 ohms.
Compressor is good too with readings from 5.5 to 3.1 ohms
So why the compressor does not start?
If the compressor is clicking and not starting, as long as the compressor ohms out ok I’d replace the relay
That is definitely a possibility Eugene. I spoke with Bud and he had suggested the same thing. I am going to try with the original G.E. starter relay to see if the compressor kicks in. The GEM relay I was using may have a short internally. Keep your fingers crossed.
Zilch.
No change. Apparently the old GE relay has an internal short as well.
Just ordered a replacement.
No change. Apparently the old GE relay has an internal short as well.
Just ordered a replacement.
Just installed the replacement. No change. Just clicks as if trying to start. So all the other relays must be good. Could it be the Guardette?
Ran a series of tests with David. The compressor is fried. Thanks everyone for all the help. I guess it was just not meant to be.
[this post was last edited: 9/13/2019-20:19]
spacepig
Well-known member
Oh no, Louie. I'm so sorry to hear this. I was really hoping it would have worked out. Any chance you would get the compressor replaced?
It's not going to be easy. While there is a very similar compressor available on ebay, it's 1/4 HP. I need a 1/3 HP. I feel having the same compressor would make it far easier for some local tech to do the job. I won't lie, I'm real bummed out for now, but I am still fairly optimistic it will be repaired. Just don't know when.
The current OHM numbers are:
Common to Run : 2.3
Common to Start: 1.547
Start to Run 1.549
Doing the ground test one lead to a clean piece of copper. other lead to all three compressor terminal registered as 0.L
I don't understand why the multimeter numbers are so vastly different now. Just after the spark the numbers were:
Common to Run: 4
Common to Start: 5.5
Start to Run: 10
Starter relay and the running capacitor checked out fine.
There is no sign of anything had arced or burned .
There is one thing I just realized. The Guardette was NOT attached to the compressor when I ran that test. So it could not sense the heat of the compressor as it started to overheat. The amp load reached about 7 just while I was unplugging the refrigerator when it flashed.
Testing...
Yeah; this was not the findings we had hoped for.
To clarify what Louis said above about the numbers; the multimeter he is using is auto-ranging and there is a detail which is very important. I have added the red below:
Common to Run : 2.3 <span style="font-size: large;">Ω</span>
Common to Start: 1.547 M<span style="font-size: large;">Ω</span>
Start to Run 1.549 M<span style="font-size: large;">Ω</span>
<span style="font-size: large;">The "MΩ" is measuring in megohms; or millions of ohms. This is essentially an open circuit. The fact that any measurement from the Start terminal is reading in megohms means that the start winding is open circuit.</span>
<span style="font-size: large;">As far as why, I don't know for sure. The start-relay checks out good (contacts open and close when relay is flipped over) and the capacitor checks out good (not shorted and value is correct).</span>
<span style="font-size: large;">The only theory I have is that the winding was already damaged by previous failure of a start-relay and/or guardette. This could explain the mysterious failures of the Supco relays to start the compressor. </span>
<span style="font-size: large;">When using a run capacitor, it does cause the start winding to carry some current and to have a higher operating voltage than it would have when used for starting only. This is normally not a problem. However, with pre-existing damage to the winding insulation, the insulation could have failed, allowing an arc inside the compressor, which could result in an open start winding. </span>
<span style="font-size: large;">As far as the guardette not being in contact with the compressor, that wouldn't matter in this case. While it is true that these are sensitive to temperature; this is for longterm and gradual overheating such as blocked airflow or no refrigerant charge. The guardette is mainly an overcurrent device, so even though it was not touching the compressor body; the current was still passing through it and therefore it would have tripped if needed.</span>
Yeah; this was not the findings we had hoped for.
To clarify what Louis said above about the numbers; the multimeter he is using is auto-ranging and there is a detail which is very important. I have added the red below:
Common to Run : 2.3 <span style="font-size: large;">Ω</span>
Common to Start: 1.547 M<span style="font-size: large;">Ω</span>
Start to Run 1.549 M<span style="font-size: large;">Ω</span>
<span style="font-size: large;">The "MΩ" is measuring in megohms; or millions of ohms. This is essentially an open circuit. The fact that any measurement from the Start terminal is reading in megohms means that the start winding is open circuit.</span>
<span style="font-size: large;">As far as why, I don't know for sure. The start-relay checks out good (contacts open and close when relay is flipped over) and the capacitor checks out good (not shorted and value is correct).</span>
<span style="font-size: large;">The only theory I have is that the winding was already damaged by previous failure of a start-relay and/or guardette. This could explain the mysterious failures of the Supco relays to start the compressor. </span>
<span style="font-size: large;">When using a run capacitor, it does cause the start winding to carry some current and to have a higher operating voltage than it would have when used for starting only. This is normally not a problem. However, with pre-existing damage to the winding insulation, the insulation could have failed, allowing an arc inside the compressor, which could result in an open start winding. </span>
<span style="font-size: large;">As far as the guardette not being in contact with the compressor, that wouldn't matter in this case. While it is true that these are sensitive to temperature; this is for longterm and gradual overheating such as blocked airflow or no refrigerant charge. The guardette is mainly an overcurrent device, so even though it was not touching the compressor body; the current was still passing through it and therefore it would have tripped if needed.</span>
Well crap Louie .....
My guess is the windings were already compromised due to the amount of current the watt meter was reading before adding the run cap. A vintage 60's 1/3hp compressor (using mine as a reference) should have a nominal run current of less than 3 amps. When mine has been running and the interior of the cabinet is at low temp, mine clocks at 1.7 amps. If a condenser fan is running add another 0.5 amps or so, assuming no defrost heaters are energized. Since you were reading 5.8 amps continuous, wanting to add a run cap was a good thought, but since hindsight is 20/20 .... I'm thinking there was an existing problem with the compressor to begin with. Adding a run cap to any single phase ac motor should not cause any problems, if the motor is good. If said run cap actually provides any benefit (reduction in power consumption) is a gamble, but in theory lowering the power factor by way of a run cap typically reduces current draw by a reasonable amount.
Since you had to replace the start relay and overload protector initially, which probably was a good indicator there was an underlying issue .... you probably would have encountered the compressor giving up the ghost sooner than later, even if you hadn't added the cap.
Don't give up .... too nice of a fridge to toss![this post was last edited: 9/14/2019-08:46]
My guess is the windings were already compromised due to the amount of current the watt meter was reading before adding the run cap. A vintage 60's 1/3hp compressor (using mine as a reference) should have a nominal run current of less than 3 amps. When mine has been running and the interior of the cabinet is at low temp, mine clocks at 1.7 amps. If a condenser fan is running add another 0.5 amps or so, assuming no defrost heaters are energized. Since you were reading 5.8 amps continuous, wanting to add a run cap was a good thought, but since hindsight is 20/20 .... I'm thinking there was an existing problem with the compressor to begin with. Adding a run cap to any single phase ac motor should not cause any problems, if the motor is good. If said run cap actually provides any benefit (reduction in power consumption) is a gamble, but in theory lowering the power factor by way of a run cap typically reduces current draw by a reasonable amount.
Since you had to replace the start relay and overload protector initially, which probably was a good indicator there was an underlying issue .... you probably would have encountered the compressor giving up the ghost sooner than later, even if you hadn't added the cap.
Don't give up .... too nice of a fridge to toss![this post was last edited: 9/14/2019-08:46]
Bad compressor On Your Birthday
Bummer
Thank You David and Bud for your excellent diagnosis and help with Louies GE refrigerator.
I knew the compressor was likely toast from the high amp readings he was getting with the 3-in-1 relay he had on it.
Because I work 5 days a week helping dozens of people every working day with appliance problems I was not able to put in the time trying to walk you through something you were unlikely to be able to fix. When you were buying this non-working refrigerator the plan was to leave it at Martins in NJ where either my Brother Jeff or I could test and repair it during our visits there.
The best way to fix it now would be to install a modern approximately 1000 BTU compressor Like Cory did in his mid 60s GE. I also have an original GE compressor or two laying around and even an extra complete sealed refrigeration system for this ref that was removed in tact. We have three of these refs running every day the one in the W Va house for over 20 years, if one of these fails I would install a modern compressor, as good as these GE compressors were nothing lasts forever.
Good luck with it and stop having birthdays on Friday the 13th, LOL
John L.
Bummer
Thank You David and Bud for your excellent diagnosis and help with Louies GE refrigerator.
I knew the compressor was likely toast from the high amp readings he was getting with the 3-in-1 relay he had on it.
Because I work 5 days a week helping dozens of people every working day with appliance problems I was not able to put in the time trying to walk you through something you were unlikely to be able to fix. When you were buying this non-working refrigerator the plan was to leave it at Martins in NJ where either my Brother Jeff or I could test and repair it during our visits there.
The best way to fix it now would be to install a modern approximately 1000 BTU compressor Like Cory did in his mid 60s GE. I also have an original GE compressor or two laying around and even an extra complete sealed refrigeration system for this ref that was removed in tact. We have three of these refs running every day the one in the W Va house for over 20 years, if one of these fails I would install a modern compressor, as good as these GE compressors were nothing lasts forever.
Good luck with it and stop having birthdays on Friday the 13th, LOL
John L.
Thanks guys for your in depth analysis.
Well then. Another refrigerator heading south to join the compressor conga line. If anything, it's going to be a very instructive weekend.
Well then. Another refrigerator heading south to join the compressor conga line. If anything, it's going to be a very instructive weekend.
Quick update.
The G.E. is now in southern New Jersey. Last week, John (Combo52) confirmed the compressor needs to be replaced. I am still hopeful someone will be able to repair it. If not, as much as it breaks my heart, it will have to be recycled. I do not have the space to store it, and I can not let it take up space in someone else's home indefinitely.
That's sad to hear. I hate the idea of that beautiful fridge being scrapped. If only you were nearer to David(turbokinetic). As we see from his posts replacing a compressor is not difficult when one has the know-how. But its the idea of finding someone today who wants to be bothered to do it. Most everyone today has the throw away and buy new mind set.
Trust me, scrapping this refrigerator would be with a heavy heart. I would love David to work on it. But the freight cost to and from Alabama would be prohibitive.
Reply #87
Louis, rent a U-Haul trailer. Make a road trip. In the case of shipping, one can spend time in lieu of money as an alternative.
Louis, rent a U-Haul trailer. Make a road trip. In the case of shipping, one can spend time in lieu of money as an alternative.
Much appreciated David. However the GE is going down to Beltsville MD to be repaired. I would still like to swing by you in the Spring to meet you in person and see your fantastic collection though. Thanks again for the offer!
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